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Energy efficiency beats renewable energies: report

How to save energy through both societal and individual actions.

Energy efficiency beats renewable energies: report

Unread postby Graeme » Sat 10 Jul 2010, 01:40:13

Energy efficiency beats renewable energies: report

Energy efficiency could have twice the impact of renewable energy, nuclear and clean coal combined, according to the Energy Efficiency Council of Australia.

Large scale energy efficiency is a ‘missing piece’ in Australia’s plans to curb greenhouse emissions, according to the Council’s 2010 policy platform, which calls for 50 Mt of carbon emissions reductions to come from efficiency. Its seven-point plan would also save A$5 billion a year and protect consumes from price increases by making the country’s power system work better.

The International Energy Agency estimates that energy efficiency will deliver 65% of global carbon cuts in the energy sector by 2020, and 54% by 2030. The Australian Bureau of Agricultural & Research Economics estimate that energy efficiency will account for 55% of Australia’s cuts in GHG emissions over the next 40 years.

“Even if Australia introduced a price on carbon tomorrow, we would still need strong energy efficiency policies,” the report explains. “The European Union has had an emissions trading scheme since 2005 and also has more ambitious energy efficiency policies than Australia.”


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Re: Energy efficiency beats renewable energies: report

Unread postby americandream » Sat 10 Jul 2010, 03:50:13

Wont work Graeme.

Two concepts we have discussed at length on here. Jevon's Paradox and capitalist annual growth.

Graeme wrote:Energy efficiency beats renewable energies: report

Energy efficiency could have twice the impact of renewable energy, nuclear and clean coal combined, according to the Energy Efficiency Council of Australia.

Large scale energy efficiency is a ‘missing piece’ in Australia’s plans to curb greenhouse emissions, according to the Council’s 2010 policy platform, which calls for 50 Mt of carbon emissions reductions to come from efficiency. Its seven-point plan would also save A$5 billion a year and protect consumes from price increases by making the country’s power system work better.

The International Energy Agency estimates that energy efficiency will deliver 65% of global carbon cuts in the energy sector by 2020, and 54% by 2030. The Australian Bureau of Agricultural & Research Economics estimate that energy efficiency will account for 55% of Australia’s cuts in GHG emissions over the next 40 years.

“Even if Australia introduced a price on carbon tomorrow, we would still need strong energy efficiency policies,” the report explains. “The European Union has had an emissions trading scheme since 2005 and also has more ambitious energy efficiency policies than Australia.”


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Re: Energy efficiency beats renewable energies: report

Unread postby IslandCrow » Mon 12 Jul 2010, 05:05:59

I have come to seriously doubt whether energy efficiency will ever have strong political support. From the political angle I see two large problems.

1) Any conservation works to reduce GDP, and as GDP is an important public indication of the 'well being' of a country why should a politican work towards reducing GDP (note: IMO GDP is a false indicator, but it is the one the media uses)?

2) Energy conservation reduces the scope for taxation. It is much better for the government to have a good revenue source with high energy use.
We should teach our children the 4-Rs: Reduce, Reuse, Recycle and Rejoice.
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Re: Energy efficiency beats renewable energies: report

Unread postby litesong » Sun 08 Aug 2010, 14:48:08

by pstarr wrote:
Conservation is over-rated. There is really little room around the margins to conserve transport fuel, the peak-oil underbelly. Yes, personal consumption reductions are possible, if folks had the money to throw out their trucks and acquire the Prius etc.
===================================
IslandCrow wrote:
I have come to seriously doubt whether energy efficiency will ever have strong political support. Energy conservation reduces the scope for taxation. It is much better for the government to have a good revenue source with high energy use.
===================================
litesong wrote:
The mounting cry & hue against conservation are rich people who have never hungered & never thought of people who don't know when their next meal will be available. Even when I made money, I knew it was good to efficiently hold on to some money. Always attracted to high MPG cars, I did NOT expend $30,000 to feed gas hogs that cut MPG by 3 times or feed a lead foot that cut MPG by 20%. Besides, my small cars have AVOIDED 3 car accidents by having the small size & maneuverability to cut slack to bad drivers who intruded on my right-of-way.
Conservation in all areas, especially in my car & driving selections, saved my bank account from total drainage when things got bad. If all Americans conserved, our international policies & wars would be completely different, there would be fewer deaths on our roads, average oil well depths wouldn't be as deep (near 8000 feet) as they are now, & Gulf oil spills would be myths.
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Re: Energy efficiency beats renewable energies: report

Unread postby litesong » Sun 23 Oct 2016, 11:46:30

litesong wrote:by pstarr wrote:
Conservation is over-rated. There is really little room around the margins to conserve transport fuel, the peak-oil underbelly. Yes, personal consumption reductions are possible, if folks had the money to throw out their trucks and acquire the Prius etc.
===================================
IslandCrow wrote:
I have come to seriously doubt whether energy efficiency will ever have strong political support. Energy conservation reduces the scope for taxation. It is much better for the government to have a good revenue source with high energy use.
===================================
litesong wrote:
The mounting cry & hue against conservation are rich people who have never hungered & never thought of people who don't know when their next meal will be available. Even when I made money, I knew it was good to efficiently hold on to some money. Always attracted to high MPG cars, I did NOT expend $30,000 to feed gas hogs that cut MPG by 3 times or feed a lead foot that cut MPG by 20%. Besides, my small cars have AVOIDED 3 car accidents by having the small size & maneuverability to cut slack to bad drivers who intruded on my right-of-way.
Conservation in all areas, especially in my car & driving selections, saved my bank account from total drainage when things got bad. If all Americans conserved, our international policies & wars would be completely different, there would be fewer deaths on our roads, average oil well depths wouldn't be as deep (near 8000 feet) as they are now, & Gulf oil spills would be myths.


A 6+ year old thread that received little comment. Does it still receive little comment?
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Re: Energy efficiency beats renewable energies: report

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Sun 23 Oct 2016, 13:08:11

litesong wrote:
A 6+ year old thread that received little comment. Does it still receive little comment?

Energy efficiency improvements will indeed be a major part of our future and most certainly outpace increases in renewables.
Jevon's paradox will fall by the wayside when total energy supplies reach their maximum production rate and begin to decline. The energy saved by conservation and increased efficiency will not be turned to some other task because it was never their to begin with. The efficiency improvements just let the first process carry on with less energy then previously was used per unit of production.
Politicians and economists will have to refine the way they measure growth and progress, and measure the volume of finished goods and services without adding in the energy used to produce them or perhaps measure the volume of goods produced MINUS the value of the energy used in production to give the more efficiently produced item more value then one that is produced inefficiently.
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Re: Energy efficiency beats renewable energies: report

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Sun 23 Oct 2016, 13:47:04

Efficiency has always been a potential valuable tool. As the alts have potential. So does cutting calories, putting a bit of ever paycheck into savings and not following the car in front of you too closely especially when it's raining.

Of course the real trick is getting enough folks to follow these simple goals to have a significant impact.

US sales of pickup trucks jumped 13% in June 2016, more than doubling the rate of growth achieved by the eleven truck nameplates. Powered by the best-selling Ford F-Series' 29% year-over-year improvement, full-size truck sales rose 10% to 186,216 units in June, equal to 83% of the overall pickup truck market.

Thru June 2016 almost 1.2 million PU were sold in the US. EV sales thru June 2016: 66,000. And to put those numbers into perspective:

June 2016 sales:
US PU truck sales: 225,000
US All EV sales: 15,000
Global EV sales: 69,000
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Re: Energy efficiency beats renewable energies: report

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Sun 23 Oct 2016, 13:53:40

ROCKMAN wrote:Efficiency has always been a potential valuable tool. As the alts have potential. So does cutting calories, putting a bit of ever paycheck into savings and not following the car in front of you too closely especially when it's raining.

Of course the real trick is getting enough folks to follow these simple goals to have a significant impact.

US sales of pickup trucks jumped 13% in June 2016, more than doubling the rate of growth achieved by the eleven truck nameplates. Powered by the best-selling Ford F-Series' 29% year-over-year improvement, full-size truck sales rose 10% to 186,216 units in June, equal to 83% of the overall pickup truck market.

Thru June 2016 almost 1.2 million PU were sold in the US. EV sales thru June 2016: 66,000. And to put those numbers into perspective:

June 2016 sales:
US PU truck sales: 225,000
US All EV sales: 15,000
Global EV sales: 69,000

Yes but that is with gas selling for $2.35 a gallon. What would those numbers look like if gas rose to $5.00 or $8.00 a gallon?
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Re: Energy efficiency beats renewable energies: report

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Sun 23 Oct 2016, 14:53:28

This actually is a topic near and dear to my heart. I honestly believe that with a bottom upwards, total reimplementation of our modern Western-style civilization, we could still have a reasonable facsimile of our current lifestyle, but using 15% of the present energy we use.

A brief description of the ground-up Infrastructure changes required:

Transportation: The existing interstate highway system is abandoned in favor of electric-powered high speed rail, which shares passenger and freight on the same tracks. Much of the power is generated by PV panels and wind turbines located along the rail corridors to minimize the length of the power interconnects. Many of these rail corridors are located over the old highway pavements, saving lots of money and energy for excavations. Lightweight but immensely strong and long but elegantly designed and relatively inexpensive bridges of composite materials are used. Rail hubs are co-located with the few remaining airports which remain in major urban areas. Everybody, and I mean everybody, must live within say 100 miles of a rail station (not a hub), all remaining roads are local public or private, and all private vehicles and commercial short range trucks are EVs with 100+ mile range. Provision is made to transport private EVs via rail for those that still want a "road trip" vacation. EV chargers are standardized, coin operated, and solar powered. This scheme still allows you to choose urban, small town, suburban, and rural lifestyles. Priority and government subsidies are devoted to designing new composite airliners which are powered by electric ducted-fan jets, fast and even barely subsonic.

Agriculture: Mechanized, electric farm machinery is used, greenhouses darned near everywhere extend the growing seasons, and emphasis is placed upon growing the bulk of food (say 75%) within 100 miles of where it gets consumed. The remaining 25% is exotic, imported foodstuffs from hundreds of miles away. There are exceptions - sugar cane for example should only be grown in the Tropics, and sugar beets in warmer Southern Temperate zones. Grain production is most efficient in the MidWest and Western states, and bulk grain would be shipped via the electric trains. Much of the current seafood consumption is replaced with farmed freshwater fish, and chickens already grow everywhere from the Tropics to the Arctic - but beef and pork are exotic foodstuffs in the 25% category, because of the energy expense of feeding grains to animals. Envision large urban areas surrounded by greenhouses, poultry ranches, and farmed fish ponds - largely organic and healthful foods which do not require the selective breeding for shelf life because they are consumed within two days of harvest. Yes, you may have to adjust to having bananas and other fruits as seasonal crops only - unless you would pay the premium for greenhouse crops in the off season.

Residences: All existing homes, aside from a few hundred which already display extreme energy efficiency, get either retrofitted to the new energy standards, or torn down and replaced, depending upon which is more economical. North of the Mason-Dixon line, the energy standard is the existing PassivHaus standard, which originated in Europe. South of the Mason-Dixon line, the standard is LEED Platinum. There must be 100% compliance with this requirement, aside from a limited number of historic structures which are used as Museums, not residences. The standard for workmanship is a 100 year structure lifetime, with easily upgraded and standardized mechanical systems. There are required standards for recycled material content and a contractor must demonstrate compliance with design, demolition, and construction phases. The government assists homeowners to remove/rebuild or to retrofit an existing structure to the same energy standard, which is </= 10% of present average energy consumption. (This is a huge task but completely possible, the 10% energy consumption standard is easily met with today's construction methods and materials.)

Workspaces: Government and business spaces and factory floors all need redesign and renewal or retrofit to the same goal as private residences, which is 10% of current energy consumption. This is a complex topic due to the sheer range of buildings being renewed - but note that covering the roof of a structure with solar PV, and surrounding it with wind turbines, also count as part of the 10% of current energy consumption - recall the Tesla GigaFactory, or the modern campus Apple is now building on the site of my former HP workplace in Cupertino.

Power Grid: DC high voltage main grid interconnects are built at the same time and in the same places as the high speed rail service above. Rural residences and farms are designed for "off grid" living, which is very easily done when the residence or farm consumes 10% of the current energy. This allows us to abandon over 1/3rd of the power grid, the most costly final 10 miles between main power feeds and individual consumers.

Net/Net: When we have reached the 15% of current consumption goal, the bulk of our energy can easily be supplied with renewables, and the remaining FF supplies will last for centuries. You will no longer see this looking down from space:
Image
....because any remaining outside lighting is directional and supplied by efficient LED light sources.

My estimation of what is required for this infrastructure renewal is 25+ years and 25% of our GNP for that same period. This amounts to an entire generation of hardship for Americans - but with full employment and a necessary redistribution of population, allowing everyone the lifestyle they desire in the place they desire.

How we pay for this and more importantly, how we get the tax revenues, or stimulate the up-front business environment to do these things with private enterprise - those are interesting topics, but a separate conversation. The short version would be, we need political leadership of the quality of George Washington, Abraham Lincoln, or Franklin D Roosevelt. This seems unlikely in the present political environment.
Last edited by KaiserJeep on Sun 23 Oct 2016, 15:14:32, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Energy efficiency beats renewable energies: report

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Sun 23 Oct 2016, 15:06:45

Adjusted for inflation gasoline prices peaked in 2012 at $3.89/gal. PU sales that year were a tad under 2 MILLION. Of course I doubt we'll ever see even the $5/gal level tested. Even when the highest ever yearly average priced was reached ($96/bbl) gasoline only reached $3.75/gal. The economy has proven it can handle record high oil prices just so long. Not really conceivable that it could ever handle an oil price sufficient to reach $5/gal let alone $8/gal. The feedback loop just won't tolerate such higher oil prices.
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Re: Energy efficiency beats renewable energies: report

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Sun 23 Oct 2016, 15:16:12

. Provision is made to transport private EVs via rail for those that still want a "road trip" vacation. EV chargers are standardized, coin operated, and solar powered.

Coin operated??
Have you watched a millennial pay a bill lately? They wave their I-phone over it or take a picture of it and add a few swipes and all done. Soon a chip under the skin of your arm and your thumbprint will be the only currency legal in the land.
Coin operated? How quaint! :)
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Re: Energy efficiency beats renewable energies: report

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Sun 23 Oct 2016, 15:18:24

ROCKMAN wrote:Adjusted for inflation gasoline prices peaked in 2012 at $3.89/gal. PU sales that year were a tad under 2 MILLION. Of course I doubt we'll ever see even the $5/gal level tested. Even when the highest ever yearly average priced was reached ($96/bbl) gasoline only reached $3.75/gal. The economy has proven it can handle record high oil prices just so long. Not really conceivable that it could ever handle an oil price sufficient to reach $5/gal let alone $8/gal. The feedback loop just won't tolerate such higher oil prices.

They pay that in Europe. Why can't we? If we need to that is.
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Re: Energy efficiency beats renewable energies: report

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Sun 23 Oct 2016, 15:40:03

vtsnowedin wrote:
. Provision is made to transport private EVs via rail for those that still want a "road trip" vacation. EV chargers are standardized, coin operated, and solar powered.

Coin operated??
Have you watched a millennial pay a bill lately? They wave their I-phone over it or take a picture of it and add a few swipes and all done. Soon a chip under the skin of your arm and your thumbprint will be the only currency legal in the land.
Coin operated? How quaint! :)


I see this every day in Silicon Valley, but I am not a fan of recording every retail transaction via the Internet. I have even been known to lay down a small strip of beige masking tape over a bill's serial number to make cash transactions anonymous, even when in view of the high definition, networked IP security camera that seems to be in place in the dome above every cashier drawer today. In former years, this was so the manager could view the videotape and letch over the view down the cashier's neckline, but once we added cloud storage and digital cameras, tracking bills from transaction to transaction became possible, and believe me, they do so whenever they can, with or without the knowledge or consent of the store.

I suppose a case could be made that this is a good thing. But know that every bill is being tracked, and when you withdraw a few hundreds of dollars, and the ATM dispenses bills with recorded serial numbers on them, and the next thing they know is that some of those same bills are being spent by the local cocaine dealer, they make the obvious inference that a drug transaction occurred. This happens even if your wife stole a couple of bills out of your wallet to buy a used bicycle from the same guy, and you have never used drugs. Your internet record probably has lots of suspect transactions like that - available to police, government officials, and anybody such as a prospective employer who pays the requisite fee.

The currency says right on it "Legal tender for all transactions, Public and Private". Underline mine - I prefer that my cash transactions are in fact private. I don't carry a cell phone, and I don't use credit cards a lot.
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Re: Energy efficiency beats renewable energies: report

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Sun 23 Oct 2016, 19:48:02

Nice vision statement you have there KJ but it will need a little work. Most of the interstate system parallels what was the rail system as that was where the traffic needed to go so the old rail beds or existing lines still working would be better places for new rail traffic as railroad grades are kept much flatter then highway grades. I don't know about your light weight bridges. Trains and light weight don't go together very well.
Also having a dairy farm use just 10 percent of current electricity consumption won't fly as they as they have to cool a ton or two of milk each day from 100 degrees down to less then 38 degrees within an hour of it coming out of the cow.
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Re: Energy efficiency beats renewable energies: report

Unread postby litesong » Sun 23 Oct 2016, 20:00:44

ROCKMAN wrote:Thru June 2016 almost 1.2 million PU were sold in the US. EV sales thru June 2016: 66,000. And to put those numbers into perspective:


In 2008 PU sales were pee-uuu, collapsing 20%. & to put it in perspective, PU people didn't buy economy cars, since economy car sales went down a bit. PU sale increases since then, have much to do with fuel price collapse.
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Re: Energy efficiency beats renewable energies: report

Unread postby Newfie » Sun 23 Oct 2016, 20:18:21

KJ,
I love ya man but having spent my career I rail transport it ain't NEVER gonna happen.. Folks seriously underestimate hat goes into a rail system, the logistics and difficulties.

Now I admit that many, many more folks are driving a F-250 or suv variant than need to. But there is, in our social economic system, still some justifiable need for those vehicles. Not everyone can adapt to the sharing economy.

Now if we're all breed to be just like chickens, well yeah. But then why have 7.5 billion folks all exactly alike.

I don't have answers, and I don't want to be too disparaging of folks who want to give it a go. I'm just saying I'm far from convienced. Mbut I'm here if you want to bounce some ideas off me, I'll shoot me down if I can. In the name of collegial discussion.
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Re: Energy efficiency beats renewable energies: report

Unread postby litesong » Fri 28 Oct 2016, 12:23:23

Newfie wrote: rail transport..... Folks seriously underestimate (w?)hat goes into a rail system, the logistics and difficulties.


The worst difficulty for rail systems have been the american public. THE classic rail denial occurred in Seattle in the early 70's. The Federal gov't saw the need for rapid transit in many cities. Fed money was offered WITH NO STRINGS ATTACHED for city & regional transport systems. SEATTLE WAS AT THE TOP OF THE LIST for near three quarter billion dollars ( $4+billion due to inflation), considering it was caught between the Salish Sea(Puget Sound) & long Lake Washington. With a vote taken to accept the FREE money, Seattle citizens TURNED THE MONEY DOWN. Seattle has been a transportation trap ever since.

Yeah, americans (specially westerners) love their cars & don't like to rub shoulders.
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Re: Energy efficiency beats renewable energies: report

Unread postby GHung » Fri 28 Oct 2016, 12:48:34

Meh,, we're going to love it. Beats walking, eh?

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Re: Energy efficiency beats renewable energies: report

Unread postby litesong » Fri 28 Oct 2016, 15:14:48

GHung wrote:Meh,, we're going to love it. Beats walking, eh?

Image


Some cities are talkin' light rail. After looking at your picture, they better make the trains & tracks heavier duty. But, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration may not allow such......"efficient transport".
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