Peak Oil News and Message Boards

To be fair, many comparisons of the quality of European vs. US healthcare ignore that Europe free rides on much medical research conducted by American for-profit corporations. The tech in much of European hospitals is US invented and that tech may have also been the reason Ibons medical gear was in demand.
Capitalism does require those "awful" profits many complain about but corporations reinvest a good portion of $$$$ back into research. The wealthy from many other nation's come to the US b/c they know the best gear is here.

Outcast_Searcher wrote:

Ibon wrote:How about we focus on the inequities here at home and how to correct them?

With respect, I think completely ignoring all cultural differences between countries and just narrowing the focus to "at home" isn't necessarily the way to go. If one country's culture is (in some ways) fundamentally different than another's, the same policy may not work well for both of them. .

I do agree with this actually. Having lived on both continents and in both cultures I can just as easily make the case to a European how much they could benefit from some of American business culture. For example, how much more entrepreneurial Americans are, how easy it is to try, fail , go bankrupt and try again. How a business can start unregulated working out of your garage. How wonderfully immigrants integrate into the US economy. How the very lack of social safety nets and more competitive market creates an energetic dynamic that really is up to the individual to take it or leave it. Europeans get real soft in the way the are socially held by their progressive social programs.

Why do you guys think I left Europe in the end?

But all that does not refute anything I stated in my earlier posts on this thread. American corporations unnecessarily exploit the system to the detriment of their employees. There would be no significant loss of productivity to American firms if they offered 6 week holiday to their employees and many other benefits. Nobody can explain why the salary spread in a large corporation in America goes from $ 11,000 to 300 million while in Europe it is often like my earlier example, from $ 40,000 - 800,000. These are inexcusable differences and nothing short of exploitation.

My own experience I also shared; our company and my personal well being and that of my employees all benefited from offering work conditions that I took with me from the years I worked in Europe.

Outcast,

Hopefully I have a few minutes now.

My point was to look at the problem, or situation, from a different, more fundamental, perspective. My bias is to look at things and see if there is some underlying reason for our behavior.

Dan Riskin describes this well in his book Mother Nature is Trying to Kill You

http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1814 ... o-kill-you

In it he describes humans as 'meat robots" and gives a good biological basis for his opinion. In short all of our emotions are something that we have evolved to have. Love, hate, empathy, sympathy etc are part of our genetic programming.
E.O. Wilson chimes in with his own similar take in his recent book I recommended to Cog above.

The upshot of this is that very little we do is driven by cold logic or even makes much sense. We ARE driven by our emotional needs, and a very important need is to feel as though we are contributing to the collective. Ever have your 5year old want to bang on something with a hammer because he saw you do it? Well we are kind of like that. We want, are deeply driven, to do something positive for society. To be a part of the colective, to contribute.

One reason consumerism works so well is it provides us with ways to feel we are doing something important in life. In fact we would be better off if we could just sit a home and not consume. We would not need an office, or car, or big highway, or gas stations. We would consume far less.

We would still have the farmers producing food. Collectively we are very wealthy. We just have this terribly inefficient way of distributing the wealth. Like we have an inefficient way of distributing health care.

What we do get from the inefficient system is a lot of make work jobs. Why? Welfare with dignity. We, the people, want to feel productive, the politicians have delivered a system designed to keep all people working, no matter how inefficiently.

I hope that explanation helps. I feel it is still awkward but the best I can manage at the moment.

I would say that in WE/CA/US/NZ and 15-20 other countries 0 hours a week would be the most appropriate work week. Overproduction of essential goods is so high that there is absolutely nothing that can be added by 70-80% of the workforce. The government is out of its mind creating endless job titles and most of the work force is busy shining each other's shoes , medicating each other, teaching others how to shoe-shine/medicate, and regulating shoe-shining /medicating across the country. Most of the jobs exist for no other reason than you needing a job.

Well looking at the madra sleeping on the sofa i think that they have the right idea, lazy old mutt!
But why the hell not, why must we work like like "blacks" (as the SIL would say) we don't benefit from our labours others do!
A shorter working day has more benefit that many could ever imagine.

Outcast_Searcher wrote:
Given that the main point behind this whole site is that resources don't come from wishful thinking and that actions have consequences, it's amazing to me how strongly much of the board doesn't seem to be able to connect the dots when it comes to spending OTHER peoples' money on their redistributionist goals.
But I know, let's not talk about any of that, because it's politically incorrect.

What kind of boilerplate right-wing screed is this?

On the flipside, what has trickle-down economics and Ayn Rand selfishness done?

It's brought us the ultimate in empty feel-good narcissism: Donald Trump, the closest to an Idiocracy candidate as we've ever had.

And while you're at it, witness how miserable people are in the US vs. socialist countries. That's the final proof of welfare, not how many dollars are in your bank-account or how little taxes you pay (that obsession with 'redistributionism').

So get off this fantasy you seem to be spinning that conservatism is the key to utopia.

Any thread about Scandinavian countries and their benefits merits its own thread about how in general those countries have a better standard of living than in most other countries. Let me give you just a quick list of quality of life traits that they are blessed with in comparison with most other countries: Crime, pollution, access to good healthcare, jobs, sewers, sufficient quality food, vacation time, decent affordable education, noise pollution and others probably I did not list. Notice how some of the measurements pertain also to some rich countries specifically the US with its litany of social problems. So all in all quite the contrast with most other countries in terms of wealth and population mainly but also social indicators. Oh and Outcast your right wing rhetoric is flagrantly misanthropic here. Part of what makes these Scandinavian countries so appealing is the sense of community and people together all doing what is right for the common good. Heck even the govt. seems inclined to be nice and generous to their citizens. So all you Socialism haters what have you to say now.

onlooker wrote:Any thread about Scandinavian countries and their benefits merits its own thread about how in general those countries have a better standard of living than in most other countries. Let me give you just a quick list of quality of life traits that they are blessed with in comparison with most other countries: Crime, pollution, access to good healthcare, jobs, sewers, sufficient quality food, vacation time, decent affordable education, noise pollution and others probably I did not list. Notice how some of the measurements pertain also to some rich countries specifically the US with its litany of social problems. So all in all quite the contrast with most other countries in terms of wealth and population mainly but also social indicators. Oh and Outcast your right wing rhetoric is flagrantly misanthropic here. Part of what makes these Scandinavian countries so appealing is the sense of community and people together all doing what is right for the common good. Heck even the govt. seems inclined to be nice and generous to their citizens. So all you Socialism haters what have you to say now.

Sweden is great but it will cease to be Sweden real soon.Who will work to pamper every shmuck with an ID in Sweden then? Germans? Syrian refugees? Give us a break. You cannot have heaven nor hell with an open border, not for a long anyways

onlooker wrote:Any thread about Scandinavian countries and their benefits merits its own thread about how in general those countries have a better standard of living than in most other countries. Let me give you just a quick list of quality of life traits that they are blessed with in comparison with most other countries: Crime, pollution, access to good healthcare, jobs, sewers, sufficient quality food, vacation time, decent affordable education, noise pollution and others probably I did not list. Notice how some of the measurements pertain also to some rich countries specifically the US with its litany of social problems. So all in all quite the contrast with most other countries in terms of wealth and population mainly but also social indicators. Oh and Outcast your right wing rhetoric is flagrantly misanthropic here. Part of what makes these Scandinavian countries so appealing is the sense of community and people together all doing what is right for the common good. Heck even the govt. seems inclined to be nice and generous to their citizens. So all you Socialism haters what have you to say now.

I don't hate socialism, I just can see that it doesn't work for long.
Sweden is a large country with a small 9.6 Million population and it has more then average natural resources on a per capita basis. In spite of this it has come close to bankruptcy at least once post WW2 and may well do so again if they get a significant influx of immigrants.
The other Scandinavian countries have oil and gas to sell so can last quite a bit longer.
Nothing wrong with socialism programs as long as they pay their bills year on year and don't borrow from the future generations to do it.
Of course if they tell me how much tax they want this year for this years programs I will almost always tell them to Forgetaboutit!!

Welcome to Sweden, Eldorado for Migrants!
by Nima Gholam Ali Pour
February 18, 2017 at 5:00 am

From the perspective of a poor migrant, the cash Sweden gives to all who come seems a lot of money, without working a single day to get it. This makes Sweden a paradise for the migrants of the world who do not want to work. The Swedish taxpayer pays for this party.

Recently, the city of Malmö bought 268 apartments, so newly arrived migrants would have a roof over their head. But at the same time, Swedish citizens in Malmö have to wait more than three years in line to rent an apartment.

While Swedish taxpayers are forced to fund all these benefits for migrants, the migrants do not have to adapt to the Swedish way of living.
*************************
Just two days after President Trump provoked widespread consternation by seeming to imply, incorrectly, that immigrants had perpetrated a recent spate of violence in Sweden, riots broke out in a predominantly immigrant neighborhood in the northern suburbs of the country's capital, Stockholm.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wor ... 5add44a0e1

More
https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/9901 ... ants-costs


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oCsEqKjP9p0

http://edition.cnn.com/2017/02/21/europ ... olm-riots/


******************
Great Analysis here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnB4yABbGO8

Is not Europe importing all these migrants a result of their need for inexpensive labor? This is something that has been going on a long time and will certainly not go away after peak oil.

jedrider wrote:Is not Europe importing all these migrants a result of their need for inexpensive labor? This is something that has been going on a long time and will certainly not go away after peak oil.

Cheap labour seems to be incompatible with Swedish employment practices. As I understand it, entry level jobs provide good salaries and benefits so naturally employers would much rather hire people who speak Swedish fluently, are well educated and have useful skills. I believe the entry of refugees was started on compassionate grounds with refugees being selected by the government for resettlement in Sweden. More recently, as more and more refugees and asylum seekers started arriving independently into Europe, Sweden was seen as a desirable destination due to the level of support they were providing to refugees.

I view Sweden as a an example of where compassion overruled logic. It's absolutely critical that you have an economy that can relatively quickly provide employment to refugees and other immigrants, otherwise you will start to experience social problems. Sweden does not have such an economy and the unemployment rate for refugees is still 50% after they have been there 10 years.

Canada is much better positioned than Sweden and other European nations to integrate refugees and immigrants. The minimum wage is fairly low and employers are not obligated to provide benefits. Therefore there are more employment opportunities for people with poor language skills, education and work skills. It is also far more likely that refugees and asylum seekers have a rudimentary knowledge of either English or French than they would be to have any understanding of Swedish. Canada has also been a multi-cultural country for quite a few decades now. However, just because things have worked out ok in the past doesn't guarantee that things will work so well in the future. The Canadian government seems quite intent on continuing to increase the number of refugees, asylum seekers and immigrants admitted into the country. If weak economic growth in the future means we are not able to provide good employment opportunities for all of these people we will start to run into the same social problems that other countries are experiencing.

Canada is much better positioned than Sweden and other European nations to integrate refugees and immigrants. The minimum wage is fairly low and employers are not obligated to provide benefits. Therefore there are more employment opportunities for people with poor language skills, education and work skills.

Indeed..those would be positions in the Federal Liberal government.

The Canadian government seems quite intent on continuing to increase the number of refugees, asylum seekers and immigrants admitted into the country. If weak economic growth in the future means we are not able to provide good employment opportunities for all of these people we will start to run into the same social problems that other countries are experiencing.

the big issue is the Trudeau gov't has already made a significant tax grab at individuals above a certain level of income and apparently are now planning to go after capital gains and dividends which are the heartblood of small companies trying to get the necessary capital to grow. That money is now being used to not only support the influx of immigrants that by no way match the qualifications that were previously required (and hence will no doubt suck up social payments in ever increasing amounts) but also as "gifts" overseas for initiatives such as paying for abortions in countries that haven't managed birth control historically. What is really depressing is that those in the country who worked hard for many years, saved and invested their money to fund their own retirement are now likely to be screwed as the gov't takes more and more away from their net income. The government of course doesn't care since they have indexed pensions and indeed the more immigrants they let in the more potential tax income they get (which likely is their misconception as a large proportion of these people will end up being unemployed). This is especially upsetting to many here in Alberta where unemployment is at an all time high. People who have worked for years in AB and paid taxes are now unemployed with few prospects and will now have to compete with immigrants for the few unskilled jobs that might come available.

rockdoc123 wrote:the big issue is the Trudeau gov't has already made a significant tax grab at individuals above a certain level of income and apparently are now planning to go after capital gains and dividends which are the heartblood of small companies trying to get the necessary capital to grow. That money is now being used to not only support the influx of immigrants that by no way match the qualifications that were previously required (and hence will no doubt suck up social payments in ever increasing amounts) but also as "gifts" overseas for initiatives such as paying for abortions in countries that haven't managed birth control historically. What is really depressing is that those in the country who worked hard for many years, saved and invested their money to fund their own retirement are now likely to be screwed as the gov't takes more and more away from their net income. The government of course doesn't care since they have indexed pensions and indeed the more immigrants they let in the more potential tax income they get (which likely is their misconception as a large proportion of these people will end up being unemployed). This is especially upsetting to many here in Alberta where unemployment is at an all time high. People who have worked for years in AB and paid taxes are now unemployed with few prospects and will now have to compete with immigrants for the few unskilled jobs that might come available.

All very good points. I would put some of the blame for the current situation in Alberta on the provincial government which pushed to develop the tar sands as quickly as possible. Peter Lougheed had recommended that the tar sands be developed slowly over time to provide the maximum benefit for Albertans. The attempt to develop the resource quickly resulted in a large influx of people from elsewhere in Canada along with immigrants and temporary foreign workers. I would assume that most of those people are still living in Alberta following the massive layoffs in the oil industry and yes that would certainly make it more challenging for native Albertan's to find work.

The attempt to develop the resource quickly resulted in a large influx of people from elsewhere in Canada along with immigrants and temporary foreign workers. I would assume that most of those people are still living in Alberta following the massive layoffs in the oil industry and yes that would certainly make it more challenging for native Albertan's to find work.

The vast majority of out of province hires in the oil sands came from the maritimes. I remember flying through Toronto quite frequently and business class was always full with folks travelling from Nfld or NS or NB to Calgary or Edmonton and onto to Fort Mac on their regular rotation. Nowadays you don't see that because most of the maritimes folks who had jobs and lost them have gone home. Some stayed on but not a lot. What you see in the unemployment numbers now are largely native Albertans who lost their jobs on the rigs or with whole sale shut down of a number of service companies or with office jobs related to upstream. Many of those would line up for unskilled jobs if there were any available.

The one two punch here is by increasing tax on dividends and the inclusion rate for capital gains it becomes less profitable for small listed companies to stay in business let alone try to grow and create new jobs. The Trudeau gov't seems to be more socialist than even the NDPs. Along with the current spend, spend and more spend policies in AB this will not end well. As Margaret Thatcher once said " the problem with socialism is you eventually run out of other people's money" so things won't end well.

It's been seven years since an update was made on this thread, but now it can be closed, Sweden, for all intents and purposes, is gone.

November 2021 Even Sweden Doesn’t Want Migrants Anymore https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/11/17/ev ... q-belarus/

April 2022 Swedish PM says integration of immigrants has failed, fueled gang crime https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/sw ... 022-04-28/

February 2023 'Sweden as we know it is dying' https://www.infomigrants.net/en/post/46 ... aging-them

September 2023 Prime Minister Ulf Kristersson’s address to the nation https://www.government.se/speeches/2023 ... he-nation/

February 2024 Sweden looks into the abyss. The Scandinavian nation of 10.6 million people is facing a national crisis https://www.gisreportsonline.com/r/swed ... ts-crisis/