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The Democratic Socialists of America (DSA)

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The Democratic Socialists of America (DSA)

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Sun 19 Aug 2018, 07:54:33

Democrats have no idea what demons they are unleashing
by Newt Gingrich, 8/18/2018

A few weeks ago, a member of the Democratic Socialists of America (DSA) wrote an article for Vox explaining the movement’s goals – to end capitalism and radically change America.

In normal times, the declarations of a fringe party and ideology in America would not merit much attention. However, these are not normal times. A new Gallup poll shows that 57 percent of Democrats have a favorable view of socialism – while only 47 percent view capitalism positively.

This pattern has been building for a while. Sen. Bernie Sanders of Vermont took socialism mainstream in the party during the 2016 Democratic presidential primaries. Since then, Democratic Party candidates have been increasingly attaching themselves to the ideology.


Remainder is at : http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2018/08/18/newt-gingrich-democrats-have-no-idea-what-demons-are-unleashing.html
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Re: The Democratic Socialists of America (DSA)

Unread postby Cog » Sun 19 Aug 2018, 21:42:55

The DSA is closely associated with antifa and use them to assualt people while they. pretend ignorance of their actions. The predecessor to antifa was the German communist party pre-hitler.
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Re: The Democratic Socialists of America (DSA)

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Sun 19 Aug 2018, 22:17:27

Cog wrote:The DSA is closely associated with antifa and use them to assualt people while they. pretend ignorance of their actions. The predecessor to antifa was the German communist party pre-hitler.


Cog, where do you get that comment from? The DSA is s national US political party that presently has one member in Congress. I fail to see how it is linked to either the Antifa (a loose coalition of anti-fascist organizations who favor "direct action" (i.e. violence)) or to a pre-WW2 political party in Germany.
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Re: The Democratic Socialists of America (DSA)

Unread postby Cog » Mon 20 Aug 2018, 05:48:49

I watch live streams of protests with an eye as to who shows up at them. The dsa will be carrying their poster boards with their organization name displayed. Antifa is always with them in the pack somewhere.

German communist flag bears a strong resemblance to the antifa flag. Both the dsa and antifa share common goals. The destruction of capitalism and the promotion. Of socialism. See occupy wall street people. Same folks.
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Re: The Democratic Socialists of America (DSA)

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Mon 20 Aug 2018, 17:26:11

If the D's want to get me (and lots of people in the middle, I suspect) to vote GOP for POTUS in 2020, even if it's Trump, having a DSP candidate running on a clear DSP economic platform would be an excellent way to get that done.

Just because socialism manages not to be an economic disaster in the Nordic countries doesn't mean it will be an improvement for the US.
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: The Democratic Socialists of America (DSA)

Unread postby Cog » Sun 17 Feb 2019, 07:30:05

MSNBC panel warns that embracing Ocasio Cortez is going to result in Trump's reelection. She and her merry band of socialists have already robbed New York of a new Amazon headquarters.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlWCOr3MVuU
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Re: The Democratic Socialists of America (DSA)

Unread postby lpetrich » Sun 17 Feb 2019, 17:45:46

No, what they did was refuse to give big tax breaks to the company. Amazon is entirely free to build a new headquarters in the New York City area, but Amazon would have to do so without receiving giant tax breaks.

Lovers of capitalism ought to applaud that decision, because it involves rejection of handouts and crony capitalism.
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Re: The Democratic Socialists of America (DSA)

Unread postby Cog » Sun 17 Feb 2019, 18:44:19

Well Democrats are good at one thing. Destroying 25,000 jobs for one. But I'm sure a red state will be happy to have them. Why Amazon would ever want to go to a high tax and regulatory state like New York boggles the mind. So the outflow of people from New York state will continue. Unfortunately, the people that leave ending up voting for the same failed policies that caused them to leave to begin with.
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Re: The Democratic Socialists of America (DSA)

Unread postby Plantagenet » Sun 17 Feb 2019, 19:44:18

lpetrich wrote:what they did was refuse to give big tax breaks to the company.


Wrong.

The Ds in NYC and in Albany actually did give big tax breaks to Amazon. The deal to give Amazon 3 billion dollars in tax breaks was completed with the NY Ds prior to Amazon announcing their plan to build the second headquarters in NYC>

lpetrich wrote:Amazon is entirely free to build a new headquarters in the New York City area, but Amazon would have to do so without receiving giant tax breaks.


Again, you are totally wrong.

The deal to give Amazon the 3 billion dollars in tax breaks was already made. Amazon had those tax breaks in their pocket already.

The dealbreaker for Amazon wasn't the 3 billion dollars in tax breaks. They had that already. The reason Amazon cancelled the planned project in NYC --- in spite of having a deal with NYC and NY state Ds to receive 3 billion dollars in tax breaks ----- was they became spooked over double dealing from the D politicians. Just before they cancelled an Amazon exec was in Albany meeting D politicians, and the D politicians were telling him they would force Amazon to unionize. Back in NYC the mayor was talking about new taxes on the wealthy and special levies to help pay for public housing and subways. Amazon saw these efforts to create new rules and new special taxes just for Amazon after they had already secured the 3 billion dollars from the existing taxes, as double dealing and they decided moving to NY wasn't worth the trouble because the politicians there were sneaky and underhanded.

lessons-from-amazons-decision-to-cancel-new-york-city-headquarters

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Re: The Democratic Socialists of America (DSA)

Unread postby lpetrich » Mon 18 Feb 2019, 01:39:35

That's not how it turned out. The company was offered those tax breaks as part of the deal: How the New York Amazon Deal Fell Apart, How Amazon blew its chance in New York - CNN

I think that those who oppose handouts and crony capitalism ought to oppose deals like that. Or are businesses the only entities with the right to receive handouts?
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Re: The Democratic Socialists of America (DSA)

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Mon 18 Feb 2019, 05:02:41

lpetrich wrote:That's not how it turned out. The company was offered those tax breaks as part of the deal: How the New York Amazon Deal Fell Apart, How Amazon blew its chance in New York - CNN

I think that those who oppose handouts and crony capitalism ought to oppose deals like that. Or are businesses the only entities with the right to receive handouts?

Let's pretend companies like Amazon don't pay a hell of a lot of taxes. Or employ a hell of a lot of people (with likely much more to come, as they grow, over time). And let's also pretend that NYC wouldn't get any financial benefit from Amazon going in there as planned. :roll:

The reason localities / states are willing to offer big tax breaks to entice big business to set up in their locality, is the expectation of much bigger gains over time, due to growth. 8)

This sort of thing has been going on for MANY companies in quite a few industries across much of the US for quite a few decades now. :shock:

....

I'm sure the DSA has other ideas. And if the DSA gets their way, I'm sure businesses like Amazon will be fine with moving MUCH of their operations overseas to more reasonable business environments. And if that happens, whining about "greed" isn't going to fix the lost jobs, lost tax revenue, etc.

...

It would be nice if the world didn't work that way, but it does. Do you not realize that?
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: The Democratic Socialists of America (DSA)

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Mon 18 Feb 2019, 22:30:55

Ben Stein gets it:

"It depends on education, we have a society in which there are an awful lot of people who have no idea that Stalin, Hitler, Mao Zedong all came to power promising the same kind of things that Miss Ocasio-Cortez is promising and it led to mass murder, it led to dictatorship, it led to genocide. These promises are old promises and they invariably lead to bad things. The promise of just saying to people, do what you can within the law to make your life better and your family’s life better, that system works extremely well. Capitalism is a system that allows people to make something of themselves instead of oppressing other people. It’s an incredibly good system. Making money is one of the most harmless things there is to do in the whole world, and that is what our society is about. It’s not about ordering people around, putting them in concentration camps, What do you do if a person is a richer or poorer person? What do you do? Do you take him away? Do you shoot him? Well, that’s what the communists tried, it didn’t work out very well for them. At the end of the day, we wound up with Russia as one of the most unequal societies there has ever been in the world. In Vietnam, they were promised all these things, and we wound up with one of the most corrupt countries in the world. In Venezuela, I don’t know how corrupt it is but people say it’s one of the most corrupt countries in the world, we don’t wind up with the promises people make."


Reference: https://spectator.org/ben-steins-socialist-smackdown/
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Re: The Democratic Socialists of America (DSA)

Unread postby lpetrich » Tue 19 Feb 2019, 14:42:15

That Ben Stein quote is nothing but utopian twaddle. If he invokes Communist countries, I can invoke antebellum-South slave-plantation owners. They liked to grow tobacco and cotton, and crops like that are called cash crops for a reason. Some of them may have considered capitalism undignified, but they were very willing capitalists. Slavery is based on property rights, and Abraham Lincoln was a big fat thief for depriving slaveowners of their slaves.

Outcast_Searcher wrote:Let's pretend companies like Amazon don't pay a hell of a lot of taxes.

Like what? Amazon will pay $0 in taxes on $11,000,000,000 in profit for 2018 That's Federal taxes, but I would not be surprised if Amazon is equally good at weaseling out of paying state and local axes.

The reason localities / states are willing to offer big tax breaks to entice big business to set up in their locality, is the expectation of much bigger gains over time, due to growth.

The Ugly Truth About Amazon’s $3 Billion Beauty Contest: It Was Never Going to Pay Off: "Massive bids to woo corporations — and jobs — to cities almost always fall short. A much better deal? Support the fast-growing startups."
How’s this for dynamism: You want a piece of us? Then pay for it. Other tech companies, particularly Google, have been expanding in New York without trying to hold jobs hostage to real estate deals.

The Amazon retreat, and perhaps one by Foxconn in Wisconsin, rekindles the national debate over corporate subsidies to land jobs from such beauty contests as the one that Amazon staged so expertly. Data from Brookings and other organizations that have studied economic development consistently show that the return on the investment nearly always comes up short. But state and local governments get sucked in again and again in the battle to “win” plants and headquarters that are essentially put up for bid.

“Most jobs come from expansion of existing companies and startups,” Amy Liu, vice president and director of Brookings’ Metropolitan Policy Program, told me when I interviewed her a couple of months ago, when the Amazon deal was announced. “It comes from within, not hunting them from the outside.
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Re: The Democratic Socialists of America (DSA)

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Tue 19 Feb 2019, 17:34:01

Like what? Amazon will pay $0 in taxes on $11,000,000,000 in profit for 2018 That's Federal taxes, but I would not be surprised if Amazon is equally good at weaseling out of paying state and local axes.


Amazon directly employs 541,900 workers in the US. IF each of those paid $10,000 in annual Fed taxes that would amount to $5.4 billion in tax income. This doesn't include the related business where they create jobs indirectly such as manufacturing, shipping etc.
As well, Amazon paid $533 MM in state taxes last year.

https://www.france24.com/en/20190216-fact-check-does-amazon-pay-no-us-federal-income-tax

As part of the contested incentives package, Amazon was to receive nearly $3 billion in tax breaks, abatements, and grants. The state was committing up to $1.7 billion in Excelsior Tax Credits and capital grants—again, based on Amazon’s delivery of job and investment commitments. On the city side of things, the Industrial Commercial Abatement Program (ICAP) would have abated approximately $386 million in property taxes, while the Relocation and Employment Assistance Program (REAP) would have been worth $897 million, according to city and state officials. Incentives aside, the state would have reportedly earned $14 billion in tax returns, and the city would have received more than $13.5 billion in tax revenue over a 25 year period.


that lost tax revenue amounts to about 1% of New York cities annual budget on a yearly basis....not huge but not entirely insignificant either as those revenues need to come from somewhere else.
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Re: The Democratic Socialists of America (DSA)

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Tue 19 Feb 2019, 22:45:24

lpetrich wrote:That Ben Stein quote is nothing but utopian twaddle. If he invokes Communist countries, I can invoke antebellum-South slave-plantation owners. They liked to grow tobacco and cotton, and crops like that are called cash crops for a reason. Some of them may have considered capitalism undignified, but they were very willing capitalists. Slavery is based on property rights, and Abraham Lincoln was a big fat thief for depriving slaveowners of their slaves.

Outcast_Searcher wrote:Let's pretend companies like Amazon don't pay a hell of a lot of taxes.

Like what? Amazon will pay $0 in taxes on $11,000,000,000 in profit for 2018 That's Federal taxes, but I would not be surprised if Amazon is equally good at weaseling out of paying state and local axes.

The reason localities / states are willing to offer big tax breaks to entice big business to set up in their locality, is the expectation of much bigger gains over time, due to growth.

The Ugly Truth About Amazon’s $3 Billion Beauty Contest: It Was Never Going to Pay Off: "Massive bids to woo corporations — and jobs — to cities almost always fall short. A much better deal? Support the fast-growing startups."
How’s this for dynamism: You want a piece of us? Then pay for it. Other tech companies, particularly Google, have been expanding in New York without trying to hold jobs hostage to real estate deals.

The Amazon retreat, and perhaps one by Foxconn in Wisconsin, rekindles the national debate over corporate subsidies to land jobs from such beauty contests as the one that Amazon staged so expertly. Data from Brookings and other organizations that have studied economic development consistently show that the return on the investment nearly always comes up short. But state and local governments get sucked in again and again in the battle to “win” plants and headquarters that are essentially put up for bid.

“Most jobs come from expansion of existing companies and startups,” Amy Liu, vice president and director of Brookings’ Metropolitan Policy Program, told me when I interviewed her a couple of months ago, when the Amazon deal was announced. “It comes from within, not hunting them from the outside.


I don't know where exactly you learned History, but you should be asking for a refund.

Slavery as an institution originated in the Ancient world, and the plantation system of slavery is a holdover from English/Spanish/French Colonial life. There is nothing per se tying slavery to Capitalism, and the American Civil War was fought over the institution of slavery, although some Confederate simpletons were duped into combat with rabble-rousing discussions of "state's rights".

As for your opinions about taxation, they are simplistic and ignore the NY State Income Tax revenues from a half million or so white collar jobs, which are substantial and long-term, and would have been of immense benefit to both NYC and NY State..
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Re: The Democratic Socialists of America (DSA)

Unread postby Zarquon » Tue 26 Feb 2019, 21:51:58

Outcast_Searcher wrote:
lpetrich wrote:That's not how it turned out. The company was offered those tax breaks as part of the deal: How the New York Amazon Deal Fell Apart, How Amazon blew its chance in New York - CNN

I think that those who oppose handouts and crony capitalism ought to oppose deals like that. Or are businesses the only entities with the right to receive handouts?

Let's pretend companies like Amazon don't pay a hell of a lot of taxes. Or employ a hell of a lot of people (with likely much more to come, as they grow, over time). And let's also pretend that NYC wouldn't get any financial benefit from Amazon going in there as planned.


Hmmm, let's pretend companies like Amazon don't pay taxes at all. Oops...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/us-polic ... 75e129912f

"Amazon, the e-commerce giant helmed by the world’s richest man, paid no federal taxes on profit of $11.2 billion last year, according to an analysis of the company’s corporate filings by the Institute for Taxation and Economic Policy (ITEP), a progressive think tank.

Thanks to a variety of tax credits and a significant tax break available on pay handed out in the form of company stock, Amazon actually received a federal tax rebate of $129 million last year, giving it an effective federal tax rate of roughly -1 percent.

It is the second year in a row the company has enjoyed a negative federal tax rate on a multibillion dollar profit. That would place the company’s effective federal tax rate below the rate paid by the poorest 20 percent of American households, which had an effective federal tax rate of 1.5 percent in 2015, according to the Tax Policy Center.
...
From 2009 to 2018, the company earned roughly $26.5 billion in profit and paid approximately $791 million in federal taxes, for an effective federal tax rate of 3.0 percent for the period, according to ITEP’s analysis. That is well below the statutory 35 percent corporate tax rate in effect for most of that period, as well as the 21 percent rate ushered in last year with 2017′s Tax Cuts and Jobs Act.
...
Previous ITEP analysis has shown that between 2008 and 2015, profitable Fortune 500 companies paid an average effective federal tax rate of 21.2 percent, well under the statutory 35 percent rate in effect in that period. One hundred of the companies had paid zero or negative tax in at least one profitable year, and 58 of them had multiple zero-tax years while being profitable."

In Europe, Amazon is registered in Luxembourg. Apple is registered in Ireland; I believe in 2014 they paid an effective tax rate of 0.005%. Google's money goes to Ireland, then the Netherlands and then the Bahamas, IIRC. Basically tax-free.

This is 2019. Corporate taxes are history.
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Re: The Democratic Socialists of America (DSA)

Unread postby lpetrich » Tue 26 Feb 2019, 23:35:48

This ought to give pause for those who claim to love the free market. Which is better to win at?

Producing superior goods and services?

or

Having superior skill in wiggling out of paying taxes and complying with regulations? Complete with being willing to finance politicians' careers, if necessary.
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Re: The Democratic Socialists of America (DSA)

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Wed 27 Feb 2019, 01:13:55

Nobody has a civic duty to pay taxes, when alternatives exist. Government tax incentives play a role in stimulating and locating businesses. As long as no corruption exists, the media can shine a light on such deals, but has no role in urging action. The taxpayers decide who they vote for, and the legislators decide how they incent business and otherwise promote the economy.
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Re: The Democratic Socialists of America (DSA)

Unread postby Zarquon » Wed 27 Feb 2019, 01:24:33

No company that pays taxes can compete with Amazon, which does not. Therefore there is no "free market". It's the first thing a corporate behemoth like that wants to get rid of, if it existed in the first place.

Another outcome is that since the corporations which make up the lion's share of the global economy pay no or very little taxes, capital gains taxes are steadily being reduced if they exist at all, the burden must be carried more and more by the wage earners.

And if you point out the obvious that means you're either a Putin lover, don't understand the first thing about economics or are clinically insane. Probably all three. But that mom-and-pop-store capitalism (which never mattered much anyway), tempered by democracy, has devolved into a plutocracy - nope. My calendar still says it's 1950.
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Re: The Democratic Socialists of America (DSA)

Unread postby Cog » Wed 27 Feb 2019, 04:28:08

Corporations don't exist as a tax resource to be plundered by socialists, although that is the common thinking by communists around the world. Corporations exist to return value to the stockholders. To the extent they can avoid taxes, they are doing exactly what investors want them to do.
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