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Special Counsel Thread Pt. 3

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Special Counsel Thread Pt. 3

Unread postby Newfie » Wed 18 Apr 2018, 10:36:05

ASG,

Your posts are contributing to the “cheap partisan hyperbole”.

Consider this you “formal” warning.
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Re: Special Counsel Thread Pt. 2

Unread postby asg70 » Fri 20 Apr 2018, 09:26:07

Here's some substance:

https://www.nationalreview.com/magazine ... t-excerpt/

Tribalism explains why liberals decry the anti-Semitism of David Duke or the alt-right but meekly excuse Louis Farrakhan, why Evangelicals excused Roy Moore while pushing Al Franken from the Senate. And it explains why many conservatives have changed many longstanding positions to accommodate President Trump. Trump is in the tribe. Indeed, he’s created his own tribe, in which he’s a symbol, a totem, an avatar of the tribal us. That is why many of his supporters insist that insulting him is insulting them. For the Left, and for some on the right, the dogma-bending power of this personality cult was shocking. But the often messianic devotion to Barack Obama also stunned the Right. That’s the thing about the coalition instinct: Inside the tribe, you’ll think the rules differ for your teammates.


Justice, in the case of the special prosecution, should be disassociated with tribalism. However, when Trump (and his defenders) evoke images of the Spanish Inquisition, it destroys the pillars of the system. You can't have the rule of law if everyone is going around accusing the law of being corrupt or biased. Once you know how to game the system like that, and everyone does, then everything's going to come crumbling down. A civil society must ultimately trust the institutions of government, especially the judiciary.

I would expect people here, in all their studies on doom, to know a bit more about human nature than the average joe, and yet I see this same susceptibility to tribalism and a shocking lack of awareness of such.
Last edited by asg70 on Fri 20 Apr 2018, 09:29:29, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Special Counsel Thread Pt. 2

Unread postby Ibon » Fri 20 Apr 2018, 09:27:47

asg70 wrote:Here's some substance:

https://www.nationalreview.com/magazine ... t-excerpt/

Tribalism explains why liberals decry the anti-Semitism of David Duke or the alt-right but meekly excuse Louis Farrakhan, why Evangelicals excused Roy Moore while pushing Al Franken from the Senate. And it explains why many conservatives have changed many longstanding positions to accommodate President Trump. Trump is in the tribe. Indeed, he’s created his own tribe, in which he’s a symbol, a totem, an avatar of the tribal us. That is why many of his supporters insist that insulting him is insulting them. For the Left, and for some on the right, the dogma-bending power of this personality cult was shocking. But the often messianic devotion to Barack Obama also stunned the Right. That’s the thing about the coalition instinct: Inside the tribe, you’ll think the rules differ for your teammates.


Justice, in the case of the special prosecution, should be disassociated with tribalism. However, when Trump (and his defenders) evoke images of the Spanish Inquisition, it destroys the pillars of the system. You can't have the rule of law if everyone is going around accusing the law of being corrupt or biased. Once you know how to game the system like that, and everyone does, then everything's going to come crumbling down. A civil society must ultimately trust the institutions of government, especially the judiciary.

I would expect people here, in all their studies on doom, to know a bit more about human nature than the average joe, and yet I see this same susceptibility to tribalism and a shocking lack of awareness of such.


Good. That was substance and measured because it targets the inherent tribalism that has no party affiliation.
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Re: Special Counsel Thread Pt. 2

Unread postby Cog » Fri 20 Apr 2018, 11:40:32

The rule of law was destroyed when the DOJ gave Hillary Clinton a pass on classified information on a private server she set up. The DOJ and FBI were weaponized by the Democrat administration of Obama. If you don't see the light treatment given Clinton and the overwhelming search to find wrong-doing on the part of Trump, then you are as tribal as what you are complaining about.
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Re: Special Counsel Thread Pt. 2

Unread postby Ibon » Fri 20 Apr 2018, 11:57:25

Cog wrote:The rule of law was destroyed when the DOJ gave Hillary Clinton a pass on classified information on a private server she set up. The DOJ and FBI were weaponized by the Democrat administration of Obama. If you don't see the light treatment given Clinton and the overwhelming search to find wrong-doing on the part of Trump, then you are as tribal as what you are complaining about.


Isn't that exactly what the article ASG referenced and I confirmed? THere is no party affiliation when it comes to dumbed down tribal alliances.

Jeez Cog, you are staying tribal here when all we are doing is recognizing that this tendency does not park itself in either party.

Was this just a knee jerk reaction on your part without reading the posts?

A knee jerk reaction is also quite tribal actually, you immediately assume someone is taking a tribal position even when they are doing just the opposite!

ASG throws you a fig leaf and you throw him under the bus. Shame on you!
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Re: Special Counsel Thread Pt. 2

Unread postby Cog » Fri 20 Apr 2018, 12:22:53

The difference is, if you are paying attention, is the FBI and DOJ are corrupt to the core. Read what the OIG has come up with so far on that issue. The scales of justice were heavily weighted in favor of Hillary Clinton and against Donald Trump. That isn't tribalism, that is a fact. That National Review chooses to make a moral equivalence of the two tribes does not surprise me. Their editorial staff (with 18 editors/contributors on board) were firmly in the Never-Trumper camp prior to the election and still are.
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Re: Special Counsel Thread Pt. 3

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Fri 20 Apr 2018, 15:10:23

Along the lines of tribalism being universal, a friend was just talking to me yesterday about a book he'd read, where they were doing formal experiments on children, trying to get a handle on the causes and extent of tribalism generally.
I didn't get the name of the book, but hope to borrow it when he's done.

Using (the example my friend used -- I don't know the precise methodology to separate groups) a red-short and blue-short teams set-up among groups of kids as young as 4-6 years, they were finding patterns of tribalism often exhibited by groups of adults (such as political parties).

After about a week of getting used to being a blue or red shirt, kids were tending to be doing things like:

1). Finding very broad classes of behavior unacceptable, if witnessed by the other group.

2). Declaring that "all the people of that group are like that" after witnessing such behavior from one individual, or just a few.

3). Being much more discerning and narrowing the class of misbehavior when exhibited by one's own same group.

4). Not tending to assume seeing such misbehavior from a member of one's own group meant anything about other members of the group.

So whether this is learned or genetic or both, it seems to start young, and be commonplace.

I certainly understand the genetic advantage of being suspicious of "other" than one's core group generally, when people really lived in small tribes, and serious violence between groups was common.

In the modern first world where communication and cooperation are important, such behavior would seem to be an impediment, however.
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Re: Special Counsel Thread Pt. 2

Unread postby Ibon » Fri 20 Apr 2018, 15:32:39

Cog wrote:The difference is, if you are paying attention, is the FBI and DOJ are corrupt to the core. Read what the OIG has come up with so far on that issue. The scales of justice were heavily weighted in favor of Hillary Clinton and against Donald Trump. That isn't tribalism, that is a fact. That National Review chooses to make a moral equivalence of the two tribes does not surprise me. Their editorial staff (with 18 editors/contributors on board) were firmly in the Never-Trumper camp prior to the election and still are.


It also is not tribalism that a sizable contingent of anti Trump voters came to that conclusion fully by their assessment of him as a corrupt individual and not from any tribal alignment. Witness the split within the Republican party over Trump as a case in point. On the other hand I agree that you would be hard pressed to find a democrat that even remotely support him. In the D party tribalism is on full throttle.

When you peg every anti-Trump voter as being part of a tribe against him then you are being very tribal.

It is not hard to assess that Trump is fully unfit to hold the position he has and not be tribal.

So in all fairness, with so much tribalism happening, how accurately can any of us assess where Trump really stands outside of tribal affiliation. I admit it is not easy to get a bead on it.
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Re: Special Counsel Thread Pt. 3

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Fri 20 Apr 2018, 17:11:02

All, how do you explain the victory that Trump enjoyed over HRC in the last election?

It still took a majority to put him in office. I don't think anybody, including whatever genuine fans he has, was ever in any doubt about his character, or lack of it.

Nor is he even the only recent POTUS to be controversial. I remember watching a particular live presidential news conference, where Bill Clinton was sporting a shiner under some makeup, reputedly given to him by HRC after trhe Lewinsky scandal broke. I even remember that some R's accused Clinton of bombing an aspirin factory and calling it a chemical weapons facility, just to divert attention from his oral-sex-in-the-Oval-Office scandal.

I submit that American politics was never dignified or free from controversy. The Populists are the worst in this regard, and Trump was never really a Republican, he is in fact a Populist in everything but name. He was a Liberal NYC Democrat most of his life, then became a Republican as a convenience to get into office.
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Re: Special Counsel Thread Pt. 3

Unread postby Newfie » Fri 20 Apr 2018, 18:32:44

The birth of American party tribalisim. This is nice article, Jefferson and Hamilton did a lot of dirt to one another.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democra ... ican_Party

“The Democratic-Republican Party was an American political party formed by Thomas Jefferson and James Madison between 1791 and 1793 to oppose the centralizing policies of the new Federalist Party run by Alexander Hamilton, who was secretary of the treasury and chief architect of George Washington's administration.[5] From 1801 to 1825, the new party controlled the presidency and Congress as well as most states during the First Party System. It began in 1791 as one faction in Congress and included many politicians who had been opposed to the new constitution. They called themselves "Republicans" after their ideology, republicanism. They distrusted the Federalist commitment to republicanism. The party splintered in 1824 into the Jacksonian movement (which became the Democratic Party in 1828) and the short-lived National Republican Party (later succeeded by the Whig Party).“

A bit more on the “juicer” parts, although this is also sanitized.

https://www.google.com/amp/amp.timeinc. ... on-excerpt
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Re: Special Counsel Thread Pt. 3

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Fri 20 Apr 2018, 19:43:44

The modern Democratic Party was founded by General Andrew Jackson on a party platform which was pro-slavery, pro-Indian relocation, and very much anti-aristocracy and pro-common man.

The modern Republican Party was founded by Abraham Lincoln on a party platform that was all about the emancipation of slaves and he was very very pro-Federal government and anti-state's rights. "State's rights" at that time was synonymous with the right to keep and sell black slaves.

Both major parties have an unbroken pedigree back to Jackson and Lincoln. All prior US political parties are not real ancestors of either modern party, politics was simply too different then. Newfie may be right about the birth of tribalism, but the tribes themselves changed completely since Hamilton and Jefferson.
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Re: Special Counsel Thread Pt. 3

Unread postby Newfie » Fri 20 Apr 2018, 21:08:19

Tribes morph and change all the time KJ. Today’s hero is tomorrow’s villian, and visa versa. The herd is fickle, it runs this way and that.

You miss the point, tribalisim predates our “modern”. I could go back and point to tribalisim throughout history, pick any epoch. Humans are tribal animals. Look at sports teams, tribalisim. Redirected by modern techniques to a more harmless expression but tribalisim non the less. “Brand loyalty”? Tribalisim.
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Re: Special Counsel Thread Pt. 3

Unread postby dissident » Sat 21 Apr 2018, 09:09:48

So Sessions is acting like Rosenstein's roof. Are there any non-corrupt "insider" politicians in Washington?

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-04- ... rosenstein

The question is who authorized Rosenstein's shenanigans. It seems these maggots all answer to Hillary and Obama and not to the voters.
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Re: Special Counsel Thread Pt. 3

Unread postby Cog » Sat 21 Apr 2018, 09:25:06

Anonymous sources, people familiar with the matter, people who want to remain off the record. We don't know if Sessions said any such thing to the president.
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Re: Special Counsel Thread Pt. 2

Unread postby asg70 » Sat 21 Apr 2018, 10:02:02

Ibon wrote:with so much tribalism happening, how accurately can any of us assess where Trump really stands outside of tribal affiliation.


You can't. And the Trump issue is the same for EVERY political wedge issue including things related to limits to growth.

For instance, how often has one of us anti-ETP guys been accused of being an oil-shill? There's this short-circuit in the brain that wants to reach for the bias or conflict-of-interest card which is in itself a form of bias and an attempt to avoid looking at the data on its own merits.

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Re: Special Counsel Thread Pt. 3

Unread postby Newfie » Mon 23 Apr 2018, 11:09:16

An interesting article, or opinion piece?, from Real Politics.

It does strike me that no matter how you cut it the FBI and possible the DOJ have been meddling in our political system. It remains to be see on who gets blamed in this mess. Personally I don’t care who they were helping or hurting it needs to stop. Hoover would do favors for LBJ so there is some history of this behavior. However I don’t know of it oreviously raising to this level. Perhaps just a poor memory at work.

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/artic ... 36882.html
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Re: Special Counsel Thread Pt. 2

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Mon 23 Apr 2018, 12:07:04

asg70 wrote:
Ibon wrote:There's this short-circuit in the brain that wants to reach for the bias or conflict-of-interest card which is in itself a form of bias and an attempt to avoid looking at the data on its own merits.

Yup. For anyone interested, here are a couple of books I highly recommend which use data and experimental evidence re behavioral economics to quantify (and/or just point out the existance of) such bias -- and we ALL have it to some extent, even "rational" economists:

Misbehaving: The Making of Behavioral Economics
by Richard H. Thaler

The Honest Truth About Dishonesty: How We Lie to Everyone--Especially Ourselves
Ariely, Dan, Brand: Harper Perennial

....

One of the more interesting/amusing things about Thaler's book was the vast persistence of the near total denial and resistance of most of the traditional economists (i.e. not the behaviorists) to the ideas of behavioral economics as it developed. This, from the very group which deems itself so rational in economic affairs, and who to some extent, should know better.

The parallels to the arguments about certain papers and ideas Thaler was involved in have, IMO, an eerie similarity to some of the ongoing discussions on this site. i.e., the stupidity of humanity appears to be highly persistent.

This would seem to be one item in favor of the long term doomers.
Last edited by Outcast_Searcher on Mon 23 Apr 2018, 12:13:08, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Special Counsel Thread Pt. 3

Unread postby Cog » Mon 23 Apr 2018, 12:09:53

In my mind there were two plans in play with the Obama DOJ and FBI:

1) Hillary wins and none of this ever sees the light of day

2) Trump wins and the Peter Strozk insurance policy goes into play

"I want to believe the path you threw out for consideration in Andy’s office but I’m afraid we can’t take that risk. It’s like an insurance policy in the unlikely event you die before you’re 40 …"
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Re: Special Counsel Thread Pt. 3

Unread postby Newfie » Mon 23 Apr 2018, 15:20:11

Ever figure out what that “plan” was?
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Re: Special Counsel Thread Pt. 3

Unread postby Cog » Mon 23 Apr 2018, 16:21:35

I believe the plan was, in case Trump won, was to hang an impeachable offense on Trump. The dossier on Trump, paid for by the DNC was central to opening up surveillance on the Trump campaign and continuing into his presidency, through the FISA warrant on Carter Page. They were looking for anything that could be used to dislodge Trump from power. In my mind, the Mueller investigation is just a continuation of what the DOJ and FBI were doing. Some of the same players are still involved.
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