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Making Tesla pt. 3

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Tesla Model S - Motor Trend Car of the Year

Unread postby sicophiliac » Wed 14 Nov 2012, 19:46:51

http://www.motortrend.com/oftheyear/car/1301_2013_motor_trend_car_of_the_year_tesla_model_s/

I am sure ill get some flack for posting this. Naysayers might go on about how its still too pricey for the masses or that depletion in rare earth elements don't bode well fore EVs long term or large scale, but I really like this car. Its a beautiful piece of engineering and its pretty cost competitive when compared to high end BMWs or Mercedes. Its got near supercar 0-60 times (4 seconds) and gets the equivalent of like 74 mpg. Overall its an awesome car I hope Tesla does well.
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Re: Tesla Model S - Motor Trend Car of the Year

Unread postby Plantagenet » Wed 14 Nov 2012, 20:17:43

The Tesla "S" is wonderful car.

For people who can afford the high-priced EV auto category, the Tesla S should be a "GM-VOLT killer" as it far outperforms the Volt at a similar price. Anyone looking for an EV would be well-advised to roller skate right on by the local GM dealer, and check out Tesla's new wheels.

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The Tesla-S.....why buy a VOLT when you could have a TESLA?
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Re: Tesla Model S - Motor Trend Car of the Year

Unread postby Timo » Thu 15 Nov 2012, 17:38:10

Going out on a limb, here, but Elon Musk has been incredibly successful in nearly every business he's been involved with. His innovations, both in the arena of electric vehicles and Space X, fundmentally push the boundaries of what us commoners think is realistically possible. To me (I don't pretend to speak for anybody else), he reminds me a whole heckuva lot of Steve Jobs. I can easily see Tesla becoming an iconic institution similar to Apple, both hated and loved at the same time. But, you will have to admit that Apple fundamentally expanded our common understandings of what we all thought was possible in the realm of electronic communications. I see the same results from Tesla in 20 years. Maybe not even that long. He's already produced the best perfoming (by far!) electric vehicle on the market, with more announcements of better things to come in 2013. He knows what he's doing, and his track record strongly suggests he'll be very successful doing it.
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Re: Tesla Model S - Motor Trend Car of the Year

Unread postby Beery1 » Thu 15 Nov 2012, 18:20:35

But it weighs over 2 tons! Curb weight of this monster is 4,647.3 lbs

Car designers still don't get that, in a post-peak world, creating a vehicle that weighs 20 times the weight of the usual payload is so incredibly stupid and inefficient that it boggles the mind. Tesla Motors may end up being the future of auto manufacture, but they won't be if they insist on their cars dragging that much extra weight around.
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Re: Tesla Model S - Motor Trend Car of the Year

Unread postby Plantagenet » Thu 15 Nov 2012, 19:02:44

Beery1 wrote:But it weighs over 2 tons! Curb weight of this monster is 4,647.3 lbs

Car designers still don't get that, in a post-peak world, creating a vehicle that weighs 20 times the weight of the usual payload is so incredibly stupid and inefficient that it boggles the mind. Tesla Motors may end up being the future of auto manufacture, but they won't be if they insist on their cars dragging that much extra weight around.


You can't have an EV without batteries to store the "E" in. :roll:

Thats one of the reasons I think a future where most people drive tiny $2000 scooters that get 90 mpg is probably more likely than one where everyone is driving sleek $100,000 EVs

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our motorscooter future
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Re: Tesla Model S - Motor Trend Car of the Year

Unread postby anador » Thu 15 Nov 2012, 19:06:15

My boss collects sportscars and he was granted use of a tesla by a local dealer to drive around town as a promotional thing.

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@#$% highways
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Re: Tesla Model S - Motor Trend Car of the Year

Unread postby Beery1 » Thu 15 Nov 2012, 19:57:21

Plantagenet wrote:
Beery1 wrote:...Tesla Motors may end up being the future of auto manufacture, but they won't be if they insist on their cars dragging that much extra weight around.


You can't have an EV without batteries to store the "E" in. :roll:


But the EV batteries don't weigh a ton and a half, right? :roll: I mean, there are sedans that weigh only a ton - and they weigh far too much already.

Maybe the battery could be a lot lighter and get the same range if they dropped the idea that you have to have a four door four seat car to transport one guy to work and back.
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Re: Tesla Model S - Motor Trend Car of the Year

Unread postby Plantagenet » Thu 15 Nov 2012, 23:12:13

Beery1 wrote:
Maybe the battery could be a lot lighter and get the same range if they dropped the idea that you have to have a four door four seat car to transport one guy to work and back.



Of course. And the smallest and lightest vehicle you can get for transporting one person is a motorcycle or scooter.

There are some nice EV scooters and motorcycles on the market right now. OF course they weigh 100 lbs+ more than comparable ICE scooters and motorcycles, because they have to carry lots of heavy batteries.

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owner-built EV motorcycle with three batteries in frame
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Re: Tesla Model S - Motor Trend Car of the Year

Unread postby Beery1 » Sat 17 Nov 2012, 17:29:48

Plantagenet wrote:...the smallest and lightest vehicle you can get for transporting one person is a motorcycle or scooter.


Rubbish! The smallest and lightest vehicle you can get for transporting one person is a bicycle. A bicycle weighs between 15 and 30lbs, and no batteries required.

And before anyone pipes up to claim that a bicycle isn't a vehicle - not so. Since 1977, with the accession of the Vienna Convention on Road Traffic, bicycles have the legal status of vehicles, and cyclists enjoy the legal status of vehicle operators. There are over 150 contracting parties to the treaty, including the United States, Canada, Mexico, the United Kingdom, Ireland, almost all of Europe, Australia, New Zealand, Japan, and China. In countries that are contracting parties, the treaty has the force of law, and its provisions have been incorporated into national law.

And while bicycles exist, the notion that EVs are an environmentally conscious transportation choice is nonsense. Choosing an EV for environmental reasons is vehicular (and environmental) onanism.
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Re: Tesla Model S - Motor Trend Car of the Year

Unread postby Plantagenet » Sat 17 Nov 2012, 20:22:21

Beery1 wrote:The smallest and lightest ... you can get for transporting one person is a bicycle.


Rubbish. A skateboard or roller skates or a pair of flip flops or even going barefoot are all lighter.

Beery1 wrote: Since 1977, with the ... the Vienna Convention on Road Traffic, bicycles have the legal status of vehicles


Having the legal status of a vehicle and being a vehicle are different things. A vehicle according to US motor vehicle laws a vehicle is defined defined as being a conveyance that is " self-propelled," i.e. a motor vehicle.

when is a bicycle a vehicle and other legal questions

Beery1 wrote: Choosing an EV for ....onanism.


TMI (too much information) :roll:
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Re: Tesla Model S - Motor Trend Car of the Year

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Sat 17 Nov 2012, 23:30:13

I did some reading on this in forums when I saw that this car got a great review in Consumer Reports.

One of the big concerns (which mirrors mine) was the battery warranty. The batteries are horrendously expensive in such vehicles. The discussions I saw from owners (funny how Tesla doesn't seem to openly publish the warranties of the cars it so confidently touts) say there are all kinds of warnings and restrictions about the battery and charging the battery. Let the lawyer games commence!

There are issues with the potential for "bricked" (dead) batteries, which aren't covered. The warranties basically say they only cover DEFECTIVE batteries (defective in their opinion) -- so if a battery just gets WEAK in several years -- tough darts to the customer who spent a fortune on an EV.

Given the slimy reputation for service AND quality from GM -- this is my prediction for the Volt -- all the bragging about no gas will end in whining and lawsuits when the battery only goes < 20 miles in less than 5 years, and GM says "not our problem".

Also, this car apparently has three battery sizes. Obviously the size and weight of the larger batteries makes the car much heavier (and more expensive) though it does help with the range anxiety -- at least until the battery weakens.

meh -- I'll go with the quickly improving hybrids until all this is ironed out and the EV is PROVEN as a reliable vehicle at a reasonable price (or not).
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: Tesla Model S - Motor Trend Car of the Year

Unread postby cephalotus » Sun 18 Nov 2012, 09:12:42

It is _very_ difficult to make a lightweight car that offers comfort and safety that the customer in that price class excepts.

BMW uses carbon fibre in their i3 to make it lighter by around 300kg. They built three(!) new factories throughout the world just to make that stuff and that car, so if there would be a more easy approach I'm quite sure they would have gone the easy and cheap way instead.

The BMW i3 still weights 1,250kg and it is a "city vehicle".

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http://www.bmw-i.co.uk/en_gb/bmw-i3/

Tesla already uses a very lightweight battery. This usually comes at a life expectancy penalty, the proof will be in the future...
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Re: Tesla Model S - Motor Trend Car of the Year

Unread postby Timo » Mon 19 Nov 2012, 09:55:43

cephalotus wrote:It is _very_ difficult to make a lightweight car that offers comfort and safety that the customer in that price class excepts.

BMW uses carbon fibre in their i3 to make it lighter by around 300kg. They built three(!) new factories throughout the world just to make that stuff and that car, so if there would be a more easy approach I'm quite sure they would have gone the easy and cheap way instead.

The BMW i3 still weights 1,250kg and it is a "city vehicle".

Image

http://www.bmw-i.co.uk/en_gb/bmw-i3/

Tesla already uses a very lightweight battery. This usually comes at a life expectancy penalty, the proof will be in the future...


This actually goes quite a ways in supporting my hypothesis. Take a look at anything today in out modern world that did not start out as some monolithic monster in its early "prototype" days. Take a look back at the gramaphone and compare it to todays smartphones and i-pads. Heck! Compare the telegraph to today's smartphones! And even before we had the car, we had the horse and buggy, who's precuror was the charriot. Progress and technology take time, and the science used in all of modern society builds on itself. The "winners," meaning those who figure out how to use the latest, greatest technology for society's benefit, and their own profit, are the Steve Jobs of the world. I put Elon Musk in that same mold. But, as you said, the proof will be in the future. My chrystal ball might have a crack in it that i just haven't seen, yet.
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Re: Tesla Model S - Motor Trend Car of the Year

Unread postby Beery1 » Mon 19 Nov 2012, 10:13:10

Timo wrote:Take a look at anything today in out modern world that did not start out as some monolithic monster in its early "prototype" days.


Ford Quadricycle (weight 500lb):

Image

vs. Hummer H3 (weight 4,700lb):

Image

I'll leave it up to the viewer to decide which is the monolithic monster.

All I know is that, at 4647lb, the Tesla weighs almost as much as the Hummer. I don't care where the power comes from - if you're dragging around 2 tons to transport a 180lb human, you're doing something monumentally wrong.
Last edited by Beery1 on Mon 19 Nov 2012, 10:27:55, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Tesla Model S - Motor Trend Car of the Year

Unread postby Beery1 » Mon 19 Nov 2012, 10:21:21

Plantagenet wrote:
Beery1 wrote:The smallest and lightest ... you can get for transporting one person is a bicycle.


Rubbish. A skateboard or roller skates or a pair of flip flops or even going barefoot are all lighter.


But they are not vehicles. Nice try though - I especially like how you deleted the word 'vehicle' from the quote so that you could sidestep that bit so that you could pretend to win the argument.

Plantagenet wrote:
Beery1 wrote: Since 1977, with the ... the Vienna Convention on Road Traffic, bicycles have the legal status of vehicles


Having the legal status of a vehicle and being a vehicle are different things.


Wrong. You may want to decide for yourself what a vehicle is, but if you start using it on the road, you'd better make sure the law agrees with you.

Plantagenet wrote:A vehicle according to US motor vehicle laws a vehicle is defined defined as being a conveyance that is " self-propelled," i.e. a motor vehicle.


I'm sure that 'motor vehicle laws' have requirements that include having a motor. But 'motor vehicle laws' don't apply to all vehicles.

Also, since there's no such thing as 'US motor vehicle laws' (transportation law is determined by the individual states), I call BS.
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Re: Tesla Model S - Motor Trend Car of the Year

Unread postby Plantagenet » Mon 19 Nov 2012, 12:18:18

Beery1 wrote:
Plantagenet wrote:A skateboard or roller skates or a pair of flip flops...


But they are not vehicles.


Thats right. They aren't vehicles because they aren't self-propelled.

You are getting it now.

Similarly, a bicycle is not a vehicle because it is not self-propelled.

In contrast, the world's lightest electric vehicle (EV) actually is a skateboard

The world's lightest EV is a skateboard

Vehicles are self-propelled. Get it now? :roll:
Last edited by Plantagenet on Mon 19 Nov 2012, 13:00:18, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tesla Model S - Motor Trend Car of the Year

Unread postby cephalotus » Mon 19 Nov 2012, 12:46:16

Timo wrote:The "winners," meaning those who figure out how to use the latest, greatest technology for society's benefit, and their own profit, are the Steve Jobs of the world. I put Elon Musk in that same mold. But, as you said, the proof will be in the future. My chrystal ball might have a crack in it that i just haven't seen, yet.


If Tesla will be able to sell its cars at three times the price of cars from competitors which offer similar qualities and if people are standing for hours in rows to get the latest modell every yaer, then I would also believe that Tesla wil be a huge success story. So far they only write deep red numbers, but the race just started...

There have been lots of designs about lightweight little cars. See for example the twike. This weights roughly 300kg and consumes very little energy (around 3-4kWh/100km), offer 2 seats, runs 90km/h and on Li-Ion cells it will drive up to 200km. There is a model where you can even provide 1-5% of the power with pedaling.
It has been on the market for more than a decade (starting with NiCd batteries) and maybe 500-1000 units have been sold. I woul not call this a success story.

Image

http://www.twike.com/en/home/home.html

Do you remember Aptera? Remeber Loremo? Lot's of hype about small and lightweight cars and nothing exept hot air. The only extra small car with just 2 seats that sells in quantities is the Smart from Mercedes and it took 10 years. It isn't so lightweight either and I assume that it sells because it is easier to find a parking lot in crowded European cities. (the Smart ED 3rd gen could be a very interesting urban car, especially because it is realtively cheap)
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Re: Tesla Model S - Motor Trend Car of the Year

Unread postby Palpatine » Tue 02 Jul 2013, 00:50:36

I am going to bump this older Tesla Model S thread so I don't have to create a new one.

One of the criticisms cited above is the weight of the Model S.

4,740 lbs: Mercedes S class
4,300 lbs: BMW 7 Series
4,647 lbs: Tesla Model S

So the weight is comparable to the type of market that it is in. It is a full sized luxury sedan. So being critical of it purely for weight is not valid. Tesla was not trying to make a econo-box science experiment that nobody would want to own. Their goal was to make a luxury sedan that would be of interest to someone who might otherwise buy a Mercedes S class, BMW 7 Series, Audi A8, etc.

Tesla Motors absolutely crushed those cars in the Model S. It is outselling all of them.
http://money.cnn.com/2013/05/13/autos/t ... index.html

Just today car analysts upgraded sales projections for the Tesla Model S.
http://www.thestreet.com/story/11967156 ... _ven=YAHOO

NEW YORK (TheStreet) -- Tesla (TSLA_) shares jumped 7.57% in afternoon trading Monday after analysts at Jefferies gave the stock a ratings boost.

Jefferies analyst Elaine Kwei raised her estimates on the stock based on higher-than-expected Model S deliveries.

"We believe there is likely upside to prior 2Q guidance for deliveries of 4,500 units, as well as 2013 guidance of 21,000 units," she said in a report.


Another issue is that weight doesn't matter if the design is well done. The Model S is stunningly low at a .24 drag coefficient. That makes it incredibly efficient.

1) The car is designed to be fully recycled at end of life.
2) The motor has only one moving part, so it might very well last longer than any other part of the car.
3) The motor doesn't use any rare earth metals.
4) The battery pack can be used for grid storage at end of useful car life. Tesla already has a deal with SolarCity to use the battery packs for grid storage.
5) There are no oil filters, air filters, or many of the other silly maintenance items that you have to buy with an ICE car.
6) Even the brake pads will rarely get replaced because the car has regen that helps slow the car to recapture energy. Most Tesla S owners rarely use the actual brakes unless a really sharp deceleration is needed.
7) The cycle testing of the battery packs indicates that after 18 years they will still have 70% of their original storage capacity.
8. Tesla offers a 100% warranty on the battery pack for 8 years.
9) Access to the Supercharger network is FREE for the life of the car.
10) The Supercharger network is being built with solar panels to power the recharging. Oh yeah... ITS FREE !!!
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Re: Tesla Model S - Motor Trend Car of the Year

Unread postby Palpatine » Tue 02 Jul 2013, 03:56:00

Here is a great article from September 2012 from Motor Trend. It explains the new Tesla Supercharger network.
*** note, since this article, Tesla has bumped up the power by another 33%. It was 90 kw, now it is 120 kw. So the times are even faster ***

http://www.motortrend.com/features/auto ... epth_look/

Two decades later, it's still a problem to drive an EV between even Los Angeles and San Francisco ... Even the long-range, 85-kW-hr battery Tesla Model S with an EPA-certified 265-mile range is 100 miles short of spanning California's two biggest cities.

But come October, we'll see the beginnings of a pretty slick solution courtesy of Tesla via an initial constellation of five, high-power, direct-current chargers called Superchargers, located along several of California's most traveled routes. A Supercharger will be positioned in Lebec (or Tejon Ranch north of the notorious "Grapevine" climb above L.A.), in Harris Ranch in Coalinga (midway between L.A. and San Francisco near Interstate 5), Gilroy (convenient for Silicon Valley types using the Pacheco Pass to dogleg over to the I-5), Folsom (between the Bay Area and Reno/Lake Tahoe), and Barstow between L.A. and Las Vegas (surprise).

Why none smack in the middle of L.A. or San Francisco? Tesla figures the car's considerable range ought to take care of the vast majority of intra-city journeys. The charge stations will be located in shopping malls that include restaurants where you might want to stop and relax anyway -- I'm guessing a Starbucks, for sure.

Tesla CEO Elon Musk pointed out that stops on long drives often wind up taking 30 minutes if you use the bathroom, grab a snack, and stretch your legs. And in that time, Tesla says the Supercharger will add about 150 to 160 miles to Model S' range. At full rip, it'll dispense energy at a nominal rate of 90 kW (but it's capable of charging up to 400 volts at 250 amps, or 100 kW) -- that's a 300 mph rate -- or 4.7 times quicker than the already very aggressive Tesla home charging solution when coupled to the optional Twin Charger on-board unit (240 volts at 80 amps).

<snip rest of article>


Click the link if you want to read the entire article.

Another point of interest is that Tesla Motors is putting solar panels on all of the Supercharger locations. They are sizing the solar systems so that they produce more energy overall than the cars will pull from the grid. So you can literally drive from coast to coast on sunlight power.

Oh yeah.... Supercharger access is free for the life of the car.

Elon Musk doing Tesla Supercharger announcement and explanation:
http://youtu.be/wgk5-eB9oTY

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Image

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Re: Tesla Model S - Motor Trend Car of the Year

Unread postby Palpatine » Tue 02 Jul 2013, 04:14:40

Here is an excellent 3rd party review of all of the features of the Tesla Model S and why this car is different.

CNET On Cars : Can the Tesla Model S unkill the electric car?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HpySOCBqntI
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