[Newfie]

Since being corrected by Tanada about motor voter laws, my research leads me to believe that, in the USA, it is ILLEGAL to require someone to show proof of citizenship to vote. I find that incredible.

So I started to look for what other countries do. Not quite as easy as I thought. I found a 2012 ABC piece listing 3 countries where it is easier to vote than the USA. Sweden, Australia, Estonia. In all three you can walk in and vote. EXCEPT, and NOT noted in the article, that all three maintain a database of citizens and you can vote PROVIDED you are in the list of citizens.

https://www.google.ca/amp/abcnews.go.co ... d=17625616

Just thought I'd throw this out for discussion.

[Cog]

Its racist to suggest that a person provide proof of citizenship to vote. You need to get with the program tovarishch.

[Outcast_Searcher]

Its racist to suggest that a person provide proof of citizenship to vote. You need to get with the program tovarishch.

(Yes, I get the sarcasm).

Is there any point that political correctness defies common sense by such a large magnitude that society overall objects?

To me, this is a great example of a place to draw the line.

In my world, in a mid-sized central US city, I need to have ID and provide it if asked by a cop. Or I can be taken to jail and held until they decide what to do with me or I cave and provide ID. Given how dangerous jail is, I prefer to just provide the ID, even if in liberal lawyer babble-speak (ignoring practicality), I shouldn't have to.

And I need ID for MANY things I do every month. You can't live in a US city aside from being basically a shut-in or street person without valid ID these days.

And legally, government must provide valid ID to allow voting -- for free for the "poor", as I understand it.

So why does the far left continue to get away with making this an issue? For crying out loud, aren't most if not all of the MANY things they're so bent out of shape about FAR more important to them? Or is it as I suspect, and there is far more virtual signaling and "the GOP is evil" messaging than substance in their agenda for (non) issues like this?

[Outcast_Searcher]

Since being corrected by Tanada about motor voter laws, my research leads me to believe that, in the USA, it is ILLEGAL to require someone to show proof of citizenship to vote. I find that incredible.

So I started to look for what other countries do. Not quite as easy as I thought. I found a 2012 ABC piece listing 3 countries where it is easier to vote than the USA. Sweden, Australia, Estonia. In all three you can walk in and vote. EXCEPT, and NOT noted in the article, that all three maintain a database of citizens and you can vote PROVIDED you are in the list of citizens.

https://www.google.ca/amp/abcnews.go.co ... d=17625616

Just thought I'd throw this out for discussion.

And yet, to hear liberals tell it, only conservatives are irrational in their claims (example, science denial).

I subscribe to the NYT for news. The agreement love-fest on the op ed pages is instructive. If you dare to respectfully disagree you're set upon like a liberal on Fox News (even though liberals claim "we're not like that").

[Newfie]

I was once a hard core Liberal. I can't ascribe to the Rights agenda. There is no place for me in the American political spectrum.

It's not a D or R issue. It's an issue of common sense, which neither side is in possession of. The Rs are in power, if they wanted to fix this they could. So I hold them just as responsible as the Ds.

But riddle me this, if I want to HIRE someone I need to personally verify their citizenship or visa status. By Federal law. But it's too much to ask for proof of citizenship to vote.

[Outcast_Searcher]

I was once a hard core Liberal. I can't ascribe to the Rights agenda. There is no place for me in the American political spectrum.

It's not a D or R issue. It's an issue of common sense, which neither side is in possession of. The Rs are in power, if they wanted to fix this they could. So I hold them just as responsible as the Ds.

So you think the R's could get the votes to fix this? I have my doubts. As usual, I could be wrong.

I'm a moderate who leans libertarian who beats liberals up about many economic and SJW policies, and the GOP up about things like science denial and non-inclusiveness based on race, sexual preference, etc. So I don't fit into the "normal" US political spectrum either.

But riddle me this, if I want to HIRE someone I need to personally verify their citizenship or visa status. By Federal law. But it's too much to ask for proof of citizenship to vote.

That's interesting on the citizenship status for hiring. So why are 10+ million illegals (including their families) getting the jobs to let their families live here in fairly good shape? I thought it would take something like a GOOD, accurate E-verify to have a shot at denying illegals good US jobs. What giant thing am I missing?

(Or are ALL illegals supposedly living off the books? Because I don't think I'm buying that when they are being issued driver's licenses, allowed to have bank accounts, buy houses, etc. To me, there seem to be almost NO consistent rules for illegals -- which is at the heart of the problem).

[MD]

A growing population drives demand. Both sides are in agreement, but from different directions. Easy to see from the fence.
KISS

[Outcast_Searcher]

A growing population drives demand. Both sides are in agreement, but from different directions. Easy to see from the fence.
KISS

Sure. It's GREAT for business, if illegals are allowed to do business in an unfettered manner.

But it's very bad for the costs of government when government does lots of taking care of illegals, like educating their children in public schools, and providing all kinds of services (police, fire, etc) regardless of the amount of tax revenue being generated.

[toolpush]

It looks like US voter registrations if growing much faster that the eligible population, in the range of 3.5 million more.

http://freedomoutpost.com/maybe-trump-r ... ular-vote/

Judicial Watch's Election Integrity Project, found that “some 3.5 million more people are registered to vote in the U.S. than are alive among America's adult citizens.” You don’t say.

Hillary won the popular vote by how much?

Murdock’s state-by-state tally “found that 462 U.S. counties had a registration rate exceeding 100% of all eligible voters.”

Among the worse offenders was California. I know – I’m as shocked as you. He found that 11 California counties had more registered voters than physical voters. Los Angeles County had 12% more registered and San Diego County had an astonishing 138%. Just between these two counties, there were well over 1.5 million fraudulent registrations. That’s approaching half of the 3.5 million total, and a good chunk of Hillary’s overall whitewashing of Trump in California. She beat him by 4.3 million votes.

As for Australia, we do not need to show ID to vote, but as voting in compulsory, with a fine attached if you don't, there is a very high percentage turnout. Therefore if someone tries to use some other person's name, it will easily show in the stats. As people will scream Mary hell if they are accused of voting twice when they have not. To register, you require 100 points of ID, that requires several items of ID.

[kanon]

People register when they move to a different city. They typically do not de-register when they move away. Many voter registrars do not keep track of this. Over time, there will be more entries in the registered voter database than there are voters. Since it is something relating to the public and voting, as opposed to sponsorship, the D & R parties have no incentive to maintain a good system. The D & R parties are not nearly as concerned with voting as they are with counting. So I am calling BS on this point. The "voter fraud" being alleged on the basis of more registrations than voters is BS.

[vtsnowedin]

Voter checklists have always had to be periodically purged (corrected) to remove those names of voters who have moved away or died. The process has always been time consuming and involved sending challenge letters to the last known address of voters that had not voted in the last three election cycles.
It has been made more difficult by people becoming snow birds and frequently entering nursing homes in different states that don't report death certificates back to the home address they remain registered at. Also ambitious motor voter programs were rolled out which automatically registered a licensee in whatever address he gave the DMV but did not ask where his old address was and send a de-list notification to that towns checklist supervisor. Worked fine for a teenager getting their first license but then like many others they shortly move across state lines for college or a job and get a new drivers license and motor-voter registration in that state.
These issues are being corrected but at a bureaucratic snail's pace.
The trouble comes in when a large city chooses to save money by not keeping their checklist up to date. They gain hundreds if not thousands of names between election cycles that are no longer resident or eligible to vote in those precincts. That leads to the possibility (Not certainty but possibility) of stuffing a ballot box or rigging a voting machine with a block of fake votes by an unscrupulous election official.
The famous "The tombstones in Chicago put JFK over the top" is perhaps the best known charge of this happening.
In this last election when they were considering recounts it was found that some districts in (Was it Philadelphia or Detroit) had more votes counted then there were names on the checklist including the dead and moved away. Something really fishy there that someone needs to get to the bottom of.

[Newfie]

Detroit

Seems to me there is something basic to being a nation to keep track of who your citizens are. And the same of a democracy, to know who elegible voters are.

Basic stuff.

[toolpush]

Yes Newfie, basic stuff, but basic stuff seems to be getting forgotten these days.

Following some of the current logic that is going around. If people are not worried about migration control on the land border. Why do they have immigration offices at the international airports?

[Newfie]

Yes, I've had that thought myself.

Back to a comment above about illegal workers. The illegals all work in the underground economy. I believe this is why you don't see a push to clean up the citizenship requirements. Business wants a low paid, near slave class of worker to exploit in the USA.

A long time ago Ibon proposed that we make a one time grant of Citizenship to all in the USA, then slam the door tight. That's as good an idea as I have heard.

I tried to do a search to see if there was ANY country who's voting ID laws were as lax as ours but found nothing useful. Shitty internet here though.

[Newfie]

've been reading about this a concept of "democratization" in the market place. The idea is that the market place, because it allows us a choice of products, allows us to vote with our pocket book, and is an exercise in democracy. Coke vs Pepsi.

There is some truth to this and I think we all get the sense of that we are making serious decisions when we select products.

Meanwhile through motor voter legislation there has been a debasement of the political vote. What does it say about us if we don't even check a persons citizenship to vote? But we do for work. This tells me that in general we really don't think our vote is with much.

It probably also signals a turning point for corporations and globalist in that they now really don't have to concern themselves much with the common mans vote. It has become a vestigial bit in our global culture. It's a ritual but not meaningful. They have satiated our voting desire through the marketplace choices, we think we have a voice. But the large corporations rations know better, the fix is in, congress has been bought, they are safe.

[Newfie]

Reuters news piece

HOW TRUMPS IMMIGRATION CRACKDOWN COULD SLOW FLOOD-HIT HOUSTONS EFFORTS TO REBUILD

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-storm ... BA2M0?il=0

"De Leon, 47, owns a small construction business in Houston, and he and his 10 employees do exactly the kind of demolition and refurbishing the city will need. But like a large number of construction workers in Texas, De Leon and most of his workers live in the United States illegally, and that could make things complicated.

The Pew Research Center estimated last year that 28 percent of Texas’s construction workforce is undocumented, while other studies have put the number as high as 50 percent. Construction employed 23 percent of working undocumented adults in Texas at the end of 2014, higher than any other sector, according to the Migration Policy Institute."

We have lost our collective mimd.

[Newfie]

Just for reference here is an article on the Kansas case from October 2016.

https://www.google.ca/amp/mobile.reuter ... SKCN1213HM

"The National Voter Registration Act allows Americans to register to vote at state motor vehicle offices with no more documentation than they would need to get a driver's license.

"Under the facts of this case, section five of the NVRA preempts Kansas' (documentary proof of citizenship) requirement as applied to motor voter applications," Circuit Judge Jerome Holmes wrote in the court's decision.

The law is popularly known as the Motor Voter Act."

[Newfie]

So you are barred from asking about a persons status before making a job offer but required to check the status before actually hiring. BUT as the employer you need to check status.

So all those employers in Texas hiring illegals are also breaking Federal law.

https://www.eeoc.gov/laws/practices/inq ... enship.cfm

"Pre-Employment Inquiries and Citizenship

Most employers should not ask whether or not a job applicant is a United States citizen before making an offer of employment. The INA requires employers to verify the identity and employment eligibility of all employees hired after November 6, 1986, by completing the Employment Eligibility Verification (I-9) Form, and reviewing documents showing the employee's identity and employment authorization. Other state and federal laws require some employers to use E-Verify. Federal law prohibits employers from rejecting valid documents or insisting on additional documents beyond what is required for the Form I-9 or E-Verify processes, based on an employee's citizenship status or national origin. For example, an employer cannot require only those who the employer perceives as "foreign" to produce specific documents, such as Permanent Resident ("green") cards or Employment Authorization Documents. Employees are allowed to choose which documents to show for employment eligibility verification from the Form I-9 Lists of Acceptable Documents. Employers should accept any unexpired document from the Lists of Acceptable Documents so long as the document appears reasonably genuine on its face and relates to the employee.

Federal law also prohibits employers from conducting the Form I-9 and E-Verify processes before the employee has accepted an offer of employment. Applicants may be informed of these requirements in the pre-employment setting by adding the following statement on the employment application:

"In compliance with federal law, all persons hired will be required to verify identity and eligibility to work in the United States and to complete the required employment eligibility verification form upon hire."

[Tanada]

Reuters news piece

HOW TRUMPS IMMIGRATION CRACKDOWN COULD SLOW FLOOD-HIT HOUSTONS EFFORTS TO REBUILD

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-storm ... BA2M0?il=0

"De Leon, 47, owns a small construction business in Houston, and he and his 10 employees do exactly the kind of demolition and refurbishing the city will need. But like a large number of construction workers in Texas, De Leon and most of his workers live in the United States illegally, and that could make things complicated.

The Pew Research Center estimated last year that 28 percent of Texas’s construction workforce is undocumented, while other studies have put the number as high as 50 percent. Construction employed 23 percent of working undocumented adults in Texas at the end of 2014, higher than any other sector, according to the Migration Policy Institute."

We have lost our collective mimd.

What a pile of crud. Men work construction all over the USA and in places that don't favor illegal immigrants there are still ample workers willing to do a hard job for decent pay. The only reason so many illegals are in the trades is the profit motive of their greedy companies that know they can get full quality work for cut rate pay by people who can't protest too much for fear of being turned in to ICE. It amounts to wage slavery for the destitute illegals and wage suppression for the citizens and green card immigrants competing for those same jobs.

[Newfie]

Exactly Tanada.

It ticks me off folks are all wound up about statues related to past slavery but ignore today's slavery.

R and D alike ignore this issue.

For what ever reason, and there are many, this topic really got under my skin.