[Sixstrings]

Just thought I'd share this, short video of 1,400 workers hearing they're getting laid off, plant and distribution center being moved to Mexico. Because it's "the best way to stay competitive and protect the business for the long term."

Youtube:

Carrier Air Conditioner (part of United Technologies) Moving 1,400 Jobs to Mexico
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3ttxGMQOrY

Article:

HVAC Company, Carrier, Moves 1,400 Jobs to Mexico from Indianapolis

Today’s surprise announcement was without warning and incredibly disappointing,” said Mayor Joe Hogsett. “While I am obviously concerned about the economic impact, my top priority is the well-being of the hardworking families affected by this decision. A job lost in any part of our community affects us all, and I believe these are the times we must come together as one city to lift up our neighbors.”
http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2016/02/10/carrier-cuts-1400-indianapolis-jobs-moves-to-mexico/

Ross Perot in 1992:

Ross Perot in 1992 on NAFTA and the "Giant Sucking Sound"
https://youtu.be/xQ7kn2-GEmM?t=17

Perot: Free trade means a weak America
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sM_PthsFFEw

[Ibon]

Time for a related and personal anecdote. One of the largest segments of air conditioning are the split level units you see ubiquitous all over developing countries. The compressor outside and the air handlers, usually horizontal units that are piped in using small pipes from the compressor. Homes in developing countries are not built with central air ducts as most homes these days are concrete block structures. Split level air conditioners are much more energy efficient then central air conditioners and manufacturers have designed and made units that start at a price level of $ 400 and up. Go to Mexico, Philippines, Thailand, Panama, you will see these everywhere.

Now it gets interesting. Having seen these inexpensive energy efficient units in my years of living abroad I was interested in putting these in a detached cottage we have in South Florida where we are doing short term rentals. These units are available but go ahead and try finding one under $ 1500. Most are $ 2000 and up. Carrier is one of the main manufacturers. So through my latino contacts I found out that there were these units available in South Florida that were taken from a bonded wharehouse that were destined for Mexico. I got one for $ 400 dollars, made by Carrier, and purchased through this clandestine source. It has been working since 4 years beautifully and I had air conditioner service guys out repairing my central air on the main house and I showed them the split level unit we installed that we got for $ 400. They were begging me to find them more but alas, this one time opportunity was gone.

This is another one of those examples how the American consumer gets shafted up the ass. Same goes fro drug prices and same goes for cell phone fees. All over the developing world these products and services are available for a fraction of what American consumers pay.

First they move the factories off shore and we lose jobs. Then they sell the products back in the US through exclusive distributors where the prices are fixed at multiples of what you can buy these same products over seas.

Why do so many industries practice this price gouging of American consumers?

This is criminal. As economic constraints worsen and people become more aware what consumers pay in other markets for pharmeceuticals, cell phone usage, air conditioners, there will one day have to be an out cry here. Most American consumers are woefully ignorant of this. Most American consumers do not question corporate policies that are reeming the American consumer right up their asses. Willfully and calculated.

[Ibon]

On demand gas water heaters. I installed them here in Panama to supplement our energy demands that our hydro cant meet. These on demand gas heaters cost me $ 169. Go ahead and try to find one in the US for under a $ 1000

Just another example.

[hvacman]

Ibon - could you look at your outdoor unit label? Does it say it uses "R-22" refrigerant? I'm guessing it does.

One thing that makes US and EU HVAC compressorized equipment more expensive than Mexico's is the Montreal Protocol (that addressed ozone depletion). It mandated that the 1st world countries switch by 2010 to zero ozone-depleting-potential (ODP) refrigerants. R-22 is an HCFC and not zero ODP. After 2010, no new systems using R-22 could be sold domestically. The phaseout for 3rd world countries was to have started in 2013. The zero-ODP refrigerant now most commonly used in small US HVAC systems is called R-410a. This refrigerant works at a much higher pressure than R-22, uses a more complex oil formula to lubricate the compressor, and is more expensive to manufacture than R-22. Because of the higher pressures, it costs a lot more to make the components for R-410a, as they have to be pressure-tested to 500 psi rather than 250 psi. Also, the refrigeration technicians have to use special instrumentation to charge the system rated for the different chemistry and higher pressure.

I believe 3rd world countries like Mexico still can manufacture R-22 and US-based manufacturers can make R-22 equipment so long as they don't sell them in the US, or sell them "dry" for replacement use only (without any R-22 in them). That is probably what you bought - one bound for Mexico prior to 2013.

FYI, in the US, R-22 is very expensive to get. All existing R-22 equipment has to be re-charged with "recycled" R-22. No new R-22 can be used.

My point is, if my suspicion about your equipment refrigerant is true, then you did get a bargain - and there is a reason for it. Not just a marketing/sales game.

[Ibon]

Ibon - could you look at your outdoor unit label? Does it say it uses "R-22" refrigerant? I'm guessing it does.

I'll check on that in May,next time I'm up there. Thanks for the info. Could be the case and it would explain somewhat the price difference. If I remember in May I will post back on this thread and let you know.

[hvacman]

I think Hvac is right. We should disband the EPA, and abolish all environmental regulations here in the US so that we can enjoy the same low-cost of destroying the planet that the rest of the world is able to do with comfortable ease.

Damned if we do, and damned if we don't. All i want is to have my cake, AND eat it, too! Is that too much to ask? Why does the glass always have to be half empty?

And before anyone condemns me for how i started, if i was remotely serious about what i said, i would greatly deserve your condemnation. However, i think you all know better than to take anything i say here seriously.

I understand your irony, Timo. I do want to clarify something for everyone. The Montreal Protocol was not driven by the EPA. It was a global agreement involving the UN - something like what Kyoto was supposed to be for global warming. The difference is that ozone depletion was less political. The scientific community had much greater agreement - it was, relatively speaking, a more straightforward issue and the solution was also more straightforward and actually feasible to do without destroying economies, so international negotiations were more successful.

Initially, the ozone studies started in the 60's-early 70's to figure out if the SST programs (Supersonic Transports) would destroy the ozone layer. It was while investigating that when scientists discovered the chlorine from the refrigerant gasses rising up to the upper atmosphere was already eating the ozone without any supersonic jet help.

The reason the 3rd world was given more time to respond was because they were not the main ODP source, at least at the time. Now, though, with the 1st world pretty much phased away from the big ODP-creating CFC and HCFC refrigerants (R-11, R-12, and R-22), and with the technology for zero ODP now ubiquitous, there is movement to make it global. Actually, now there is a move to change 1st world refrigerants again, as the zero ODP refrigerants that were phased in all have a high global-warming potential (GWP). The problem with changing again is that we are starting to run out of chemical options - There is no safe, non-flammable, non-toxic, efficient, zero ODP, and low GWP refrigerant out there. Ironically, CO2, the biggest GWP gas in the world, is actually looking like one of the viable options. It isn't zero GWP, but it has less GWP per pound than most of the other candidates.

[Timo]

WTF??? ODP, CFC, HCFC, R-11, R-22, R2D2, CC, CO2, and GWP, it's TEOTWAWKI by REM, not ACDC! OMG!!! FUBAR!

FYI, there is a DOOM thread nearby. Just sayin'.

[onlooker]

Was watching the video and the Management spokesperson was saying that the move was needed to remain competitive and keep prices down. What did Ross Perot say about a giant sucking sound with NAFTA. This is the logical dynamics of Globalization. Companies vying with each other to out profit each other. All other matters like jobs, the environment etc. are obstacles. They have totally forgotten that they need working people to buy their products and a functioning environment to sustain the world economy. That is doom for you.

[Timo]

The first thing I thought of when I read the title of this thread was NAFTA. IMO, that's what added extreme momentum to the vast disparities in income levels here in the US. The only way we can compete with the rest of the world is to lower our own standard of living. Granted, we do live in excess, and well above our means, so that's not requisitely a bad thing, but for a few generations, we'll all see a steep decline in our means of supporting ourselves. Politically, that was a brilliant, dipshit move. Ditto with the TPP. Equality (at the lowest level) for all. Move our jobs overseas, and shift our production jobs from TVs to burgers. Good for them. Political chaos for us.

[onlooker]

They way things are going we will be lucky to get burger flipping jobs haha.

[Plantagenet]

"Anyone claiming that America's economy is in decline is peddling fantasy."

--------Barack Obama, Jan. 12, 2016.

[Lore]

That big beautiful wall will stop them!

[Sixstrings]

The carrier layoff vid went viral. From 100k views to three million now.

[Outcast_Searcher]

The carrier layoff vid went viral. From 100k views to three million now.

So six, why don't you and your buddies mandate much higher wages? Surely THAT will prevent things like this.

I'm for better educational opportunities for the folks who get laid off. If they can acquire better job related skills, including dealing with technology, they are more employable at a higher wage. As a taxpayer, I'm willing to pay for a meaningful program to fund this -- open to people who will show up and do acceptable course work (passing tests, etc). (And if people are employed at decent wages which better skills demand, they pay taxes vs. taking money for social programs, so this could pay for itself many times over if done well).

Giving speeches and waving signs and demanding things won't help. Sadly, both sides of the aisle do more things like make empty promises and give things fancy sounding names -- but little of substance in the arena of helping make American workers truly competitive in the global labor marketplace, where increasingly, good jobs require meaningful skills.

[Sixstrings]

So six, why don't you and your buddies mandate much higher wages? Surely THAT will prevent things like this.

New story out today, Trump saw the video and was moved by the plight of the workers.

Trump said at the debate, "They were crying. It was a very sad situation." And he said he'd go to carrier and give them two choices, don't move the plant or pay a 45% tariff on those air conditioners coming over from Mexico:

Trump would tax Carrier air conditioning units for moving to Mexico

Republican presidential candidate Donald Trump said he would impose taxes on Carrier air conditioning units manufactured in Mexico in light of the company's decision to move production from Indiana, a position in line with his strong opposition to international trade deals.

Video of the company's announcement last week to employees went viral on the Internet, showing emotional reactions to the loss of jobs while a representative of the company explained the move was "strictly a business decision." Carrier, a manufacturer of air conditioning units, is owned by United Technologies Corp and announced it would be moving 1,400 jobs to Monterrey, Mexico.

During Saturday night's Republican debate, Trump said if he were president, he would approach Carrier officials and give them two choices.

"I'm going to tell them, 'Now I'm going to get consensus from Congress and we're going to tax you,'" Trump said. "'So stay where you are [in Mexico] or build in the United States.' Because we are killing ourselves with trade pacts that are no good for us and no good for our workers."

A central part of Trump's campaign message has been his opposition to international trade pacts that allow products manufactured overseas to be imported with limited or no tariffs. It's a policy position that reverberates with middle- and low- income Americans, who have watched manufacturing jobs leave the country in the last several decades.

Trump cited the video of the workers, which has more than 2.8 million views on YouTube, at the debate.

"If you saw the people, because they have a video of the announcement that Carrier is moving to Mexico, they were laid off," he said. "They were crying. It was a very sad situation."
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-utx-idUSMTZSAPEC2EIWOEVW

GOP Debate: Trump has a message for Carrier

“You're going to go to Mexico across the border with no tax, I'm going to tell them I'm going to get consensus from Congress, and we're going to tax you when those air conditioners come - so stay where you are or build in the United States."
http://fox59.com/2016/02/14/gop-debate-trump-has-a-message-for-carrier/

I don't mean to make this a Trump thread, but it just happens to be Trump that saw the video and cared. It's not like Hillary or Jeb or Marco give a flip.

But generally this is an offshoring / nafta thread.

Now here's a good idea, Trump said he would RAISE taxes on offshorers and LOWER taxes on companies that build in the US:

Exclusive — Donald Trump On Ford, Carrier, Shipping Jobs To Mexico: ‘I’m The Only One Who Understands What’s Going On’

The steel [production] is going to be there. The cars are going to be there. Mexico is going to be the car capitol of the world. Michigan is being decimated. That’s why I’m doing so well in Michigan—because people say I’m the only one who understands what’s going on.

The other candidates have no clue as to what’s going on. I’m talking about it all the time. There’s even a piece of the reason that I like the wall is for economic reasons. They’re coming over here doing whatever they want to do economically. ...

“There’s only one way you’re going to reverse it, and that’s that you’re going to have to make it more expensive to do business that way,” Trump told Breitbart News.

First of all, you’re going to have to look to lower taxes [for those who do business inside the United States]—and we may very well have to charge taxes at the border, when somebody drives a car through the border to sell it in the United States.

But look, we’ve closed our plants. We’ve lost our jobs. They’re no going to build cars in Mexico and sell them in the United States, okay?

We can lower our taxes, and we’re probably going to have to charge a surtax at the border. Otherwise we’re going to lose a fortune. And that will help Ford and other people make a decision to buy in the United States, to build in the United States.
http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2016/02/12/exclusive-donald-trump-on-ford-carrier-shipping-jobs-to-mexico-im-the-only-one-who-understands-whats-going-on/

[Plantagenet]

Trump that saw the video and cared. It's not like Hillary or Jeb or Marco give a flip.

Yup.

Same with Obama.

Not only has Obama not lifted a finger to stop Carrier closing their US factory and Mexico has not said a word about the poor people losing their jobs at Carrier, he continues to boast about how great the US economy is thanks to him.

[Lore]

Trump that saw the video and cared. It's not like Hillary or Jeb or Marco give a flip.

Yup.

Same with Obama.

Not only has Obama not lifted a finger to stop Carrier closing their US factory and Mexico has not said a word about the poor people losing their jobs at Carrier, he continues to boast about how great the US economy is thanks to him.

Why would Obama interfere with the free capitalist market when it's working? There is no law that says they can't relocate and you'd have the majority of the opposition party howling if he tried to prevent it.

[dinopello]

Now here's a good idea, Trump said he would RAISE taxes on offshorers and LOWER taxes on companies that build in the US:

Trump can't do that even if he were president. That takes congress. How will he get congress to do it?

[Plantagenet]

Why would Obama interfere with the free capitalist market when it's working? There is no law that says they can't relocate ....

Trump is concerned about the human cost to the American workers who lose their jobs when US corporations move overseas.

Obama's failure to lift a finger to block the move or even say he opposes the Carrier plant moving to Mexico just makes it obvious that Obama doesn't give a darn about the workers losing their jobs there.

Cheers!

[Sixstrings]

Now here's a good idea, Trump said he would RAISE taxes on offshorers and LOWER taxes on companies that build in the US:

Trump can't do that even if he were president. That takes congress. How will he get congress to do it?

In the Reuters article Trump said he will get consensus in Congress to get the tax changes passed:

"I'm going to tell them, 'Now I'm going to get consensus from Congress and we're going to tax you,'"

I think Trump would use his deal making skills, and cajoling, and backslapping and horsetrading.

Probably 3/4 of the Democratic Party reps would vote for a program like what Trump's talking about. The unions would love it.

Trump says he'll bring the automobile industry back to Michigan, and that's why he's at 51% in the primary poll in Michigan, and beating Hillary Clinton in the polls there:



Dino -- Michigan wants to be great again.

Michigan's tired of lead-filled water and rusted pipes and bankrupt town governments taken over by the state, and then there's lead in the water and people have to sponge bath with bottled water and nobody has jobs. It's ridiculous.

Michigan's tired of just losing jobs to Mexico and losing all their auto industry, and just rusting and decaying and nobody cares.

Trump's gonna make Michigan great again, he'll win it for sure from Hillary Clinton, and Michigan is a crucial swing state..

P.S. -- Even without congress, any president has the most power when it comes to treasury dept issues and trade issues and trade deals. Congress wouldn't have to agree to a single thing, and it's still a huge difference having a jobs-in-usa focused president.

2nd P.S. Just the bully pulpit alone could set a new tone where corporations would change and not offshore so much. Trump already says he won't eat oreo cookies, because that factory is going to Mexico -- companies actually wouldn't want bad press like that, from the president of all people.

Donald Trump, it is what it is
You can love him or hate him, but the game is all his

He listens to both sides and asks questions
He can take this country in the right direction

So watch out look out all you non-performers
You about to get trumped with a new reformer

This is the time the White House the place
Trump is the man who already won this race
He speaks truth, to negotiate
He’s the Business mind gonna clean up the slate

We need a leader who is never scared of a fight
No special interest meetings in the dark of the night
It’s your choice I choose to roll in the light
The right man for the job Donald Trump, alright?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kgqyWmD9LQ