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Common Sense Gun Control

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Common Sense Gun Control

Unread postby Cog » Tue 20 Oct 2015, 08:55:22

We hear the term common sense gun control used frequently by politicians and various groups and but there is no clear definition on what people mean by it. The purpose of this thread is not to argue about guns or gun control but to elicit your point of view on what you would like to see legislatively with regards to guns.

Most of you know that I am a person who prefers very little in the way of gun control legislation, so I will not comment further in this thread unless you have a specific question about the topic.

It would be helpful, if you are not an American, to list the country you live in. We are, in many ways, products of the country we grow up in.

This is your opportunity to be creative with gun bans, waiting periods, permits, or whatever you see as something useful regarding proposed gun legislation. I value your point of view and I am sure there are many varying ones out there.
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Re: Common Sense Gun Control

Unread postby davep » Tue 20 Oct 2015, 10:27:13

Keep them out of the hands of felons and nutcases. Try to make sure you know what you're doing when getting one. Don't fetishise them. Get a safe, for Christ's sake, if only for when your friends' kids are at your bbq. And NEVER take them out of the safe when drunk unless you're in the middle of a battlefield.
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Re: Common Sense Gun Control

Unread postby yellowcanoe » Tue 20 Oct 2015, 11:09:03

Only allow black powder, muzzle loading weapons in honour of the founding fathers who wrote the second amendment.
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Re: Common Sense Gun Control

Unread postby Ibon » Tue 20 Oct 2015, 12:52:40

Cog wrote:
Most of you know that I am a person who prefers very little in the way of gun control legislation, so I will not comment further in this thread unless you have a specific question about the topic.



Exactly because of your preferences I would be interested for you to specify the extent of gun control legislation that you think is balanced and appropriate.
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Re: Common Sense Gun Control

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Tue 20 Oct 2015, 13:52:44

Well. I'll try.

I, as a sane and responsible law abiding adult, want to be able to:

1). Legally keep guns, such as a S&W .38 special revolver (simple and very reliable) for self defense in my home.

2). Transport them legally to a legal firing range to ensure I can handle them safely and accurately, should the need arise.

...

With this said, it seems to me that some kind of reasonable balance on safety vs. access could be struck.

For starters, I'd recommend:

1). A waiting period. I was simply stunned in KY when I could walk into a gun store, pick out anything I could afford including any ammo I wanted, and walk out after one phone call to see if I'm a felon. It's not like a person who wants a gun for self defense or hunting shouldn't be able to plan ahead for say, five days, to catch some of the "temporary insanity" due to rage cases.

IMO, if they kept a registry of legal gun owners (I know, some people don't like this), then if you're already a gun owner, you could potentially skip the waiting period. This should help calm the crowd that buys lots of guns for fun and sport. The downside of this is if mental health checking is done with each gun purchase, the waiting period might be needed to make that effective.

2). Mandatory safety and proficiency testing. Again, I know, some people won't like this. This is about compromise and reasonableness. What ANY rational person should want is a populace which, if armed, understands about safety, how to use their gun properly, and their legal responsibilities, since it is a dangerous machine if used improperly. Something along the lines of the CCW permit testing would seem to be ideal. If not that, then at least minimum safety and legal awareness testing. (Yeah, and this costs some money, which the gun buyers should fully fund. Rights imply responsibilities.)

Again, experienced gun owners could be waived from this IF they were on some sort of reliable government gun owners registration database.

3). Some real background checking, looking for mental issues, when purchasing a gun. This could be done during the waiting period. If they can do this for felons, why not for known serious mental conditions which have been diagnosed or treated? Doubtful cases should be reviewed and signed off by a doctor -- for example, for stuff deemed "cured" or "under treatment" and psychtropic meds are required. And again, this would cost money, and again, taxes on guns should pay for this. It costs money to competently run a complex society reasonably safely.

Some sort of a board of medical professionals should decide upon, and codify the standards, and make them public. (This should NOT be a political football for inane politicians).

...

This, as a start, should strike some kind of sane balance between the gun advocates and the people who are terrified of guns and gun owners. Nothing is too wild or controversial, and nothing (if government could act efficiently) should be too wildly expensive.

Unfortunately in this society, where we can't even simplify the federal income tax code due to politics, I don't see anything anywhere so rational happening any time soon.
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: Common Sense Gun Control

Unread postby Gsearch » Tue 20 Oct 2015, 14:50:45

Being convicted of a felony or receiving a mental health diagnosis does not void your second amendment right. This will be ruled unconstituional eventually and the Gun Control Act will have to be repealed. All gun control is illegal in this country.
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Re: Common Sense Gun Control

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Tue 20 Oct 2015, 15:12:55

Gsearch wrote:Being convicted of a felony or receiving a mental health diagnosis does not void your second amendment right. This will be ruled unconstituional eventually and the Gun Control Act will have to be repealed. All gun control is illegal in this country.

That kind of attitude won't fly. There are already various cities (like NYC and DC, to cite two examples) where it is difficult for an honest citizen to have CCW rights. Assuming that the growing pro-government, anti individual rights trend in the US won't restrict gun rights in time just because you and your ilk cry "unconstitutional" is delusional.

Let's not forget that the main rallying cry of the gun haters is that the second amendment doesn't even apply to individuals, via the "well regulated militia" language. And let's not forget the left wing "living document" push to change the constitution -- to their own ends like banning guns, of course.

Just keep saying "it's illegal to control guns" while ignoring what is happening will earn you loss of your right to legally defend yourself with a gun, IMO. How about some rational compromise and and an attempt to get most people what they want -- a reasonable ability to defend themselves, especially in their home?
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: Common Sense Gun Control

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Tue 20 Oct 2015, 15:20:40

pstarr wrote:
This, as a start, should strike some kind of sane balance between the gun advocates nutsand the people who are terrified of guns and gun owners . . . I don't see anything anywhere so rational happening any time soon.
The problem in a nutshell. Both sides are crazy irrational and stuck in their partisan ignorance.

A good post overall pstarr, rational and outlining the basic problem.

So how does calling the pro-gun rights people "nuts" help in any way? Many such people probably stopped reading at that point. Many people, like me, don't think this serious issue is to be made light of (as many anti-gun people, lacking substantive argument, do -- as though that buys them credence).

Meanwhile, as random shootings in crowds occur, the pressure on politicians to "just DO something" will increase, and the result may be highly irrational. Better, IMO, for people who care to get rational ideas out there and attempt to help lay the groundwork to shape a compromise public policy.

(I know, government often doesn't work that well, but one can hope).
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: Common Sense Gun Control

Unread postby Gsearch » Tue 20 Oct 2015, 15:30:53

Outcast_Searcher wrote:
Gsearch wrote:Being convicted of a felony or receiving a mental health diagnosis does not void your second amendment right. This will be ruled unconstituional eventually and the Gun Control Act will have to be repealed. All gun control is illegal in this country.

That kind of attitude won't fly. There are already various cities (like NYC and DC, to cite two examples) where it is difficult for an honest citizen to have CCW rights. Assuming that the growing pro-government, anti individual rights trend in the US won't restrict gun rights in time just because you and your ilk cry "unconstitutional" is delusional.

Let's not forget that the main rallying cry of the gun haters is that the second amendment doesn't even apply to individuals, via the "well regulated militia" language. And let's not forget the left wing "living document" push to change the constitution -- to their own ends like banning guns, of course.

Just keep saying "it's illegal to control guns" while ignoring what is happening will earn you loss of your right to legally defend yourself with a gun, IMO. How about some rational compromise and and an attempt to get most people what they want -- a reasonable ability to defend themselves, especially in their home?


The liberals cannot achieve jack shit and they know it. Gun control has proven a losing platform for them. I thrive on their powerless screams.
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Re: Common Sense Gun Control

Unread postby ritter » Tue 20 Oct 2015, 17:16:50

Outcast,

I'm pretty close to where you are on this--well said.

In California, we're well restricted by 10-day waiting period on every purchase, background checks, basic firearms safety test (no real handling, just "rules"), 10 round magazine limits post 2000 and registration of all firearms purchases post 2014 (prior to that, it was handguns only), bullet buttons on "assault" rifles, etc. I'm fine with these regulations. They make some sense and are not particularly onerous (except maybe the handgun roster which is pretty dumb).

Despite all this, we still have mass shootings here. I don't think reducing magazine capacity to two would stop them. Those who are set to do crazy things, will do crazy things, laws notwithstanding. Those of us who are sane, won't. Why should my right be further infringed to bring exactly zero reduction of crazy and reduce my ability to respond to crazy should I need to?

I believe that we need to take better care of each other and spend more time looking for commonalities and less time focusing on differences. The schism that exists between "us" and "them" on the gun ownership thing is just an example (this from a pretty socially liberal person). It gets folk frothing that are otherwise calm and collected. There is a middle ground that can be had while we work on fixing the real problem of a sickened society that ostracizes the oddball who does not fit the "norm" and treating those with real mental health issues.
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Re: Common Sense Gun Control

Unread postby yellowcanoe » Tue 20 Oct 2015, 17:41:31

I think the suggestion that guns could be completely banned in the US at some point in the future is an impossibility. Our experience in Canada, a country that doesn't have anything equivalent to the 2'nd amendment or the focus on individual rights that you have in the US, is that if gun control goes too far there will be a backlash.

The Montreal Massacre in 1989 where 14 female engineering students were killed by a gunman resulted in an outcry for more gun controls. At that time, Canada already had pretty stringent gun controls in comparison to the US. Handguns, most semi-automatic rifles and all fully automatic weapons are considered restricted weapons and owning them is very much a privilege, not a right. For example, the only way an urban resident could legally own a handgun would be to be a member of a shooting club. The license associated with the handgun would only permit the gun to be transported to/from the home to the shooting club and when the gun was at home it would have to be properly secured (definitely not left lying around fully loaded). To purchase a non-restricted rifle or shotgun required a Firearms Acquisition Certificate, the intention being that people with a criminal record or a mental problem would not be able to get a FAC or have their existing FAC revoked. Nevertheless, politicians wanted to do something to appease the people who wanted more gun controls. What they did was bring in a long gun registry where everyone who owned unrestricted weapon(s) had to register all of them.

It was never really clear how the long gun registry would reduce gun crime. For example, it was suggested that police officers responding to a domestic dispute could see if any guns were present in the household. However, police officers in that situation would always assume guns could be present. The registry was also expensive to setup and operate.

The registry was a disaster politically. Gun owners were angry at being treated as criminals and many did not register their guns (ironically that would have made them criminals). Rural ridings where the gun registry was very unpopular were pitted against urban areas that favoured more gun control. The Liberal and NDP parties that supported the gun registry were really impacted in their ability to be elected in rural ridings. Even worse, hundreds of thousands of gun owners started to donate money to the Conservative party that was against the registry. Note that in Canada, corporations are not allowed to donate money to Federal parties and individuals are limited to donating $1000 per year. Tapping large numbers of angry gun owners for donations gave the Conservative Party a huge funding advantage over the other parties. After the Conservatives were elected to a majority they eliminated the long gun registry. So we are basically back to the point we were before the Montreal Massacre. The Liberal Party which created the Long Gun Registry was just elected to a majority in yesterdays Federal election so in theory they could reestablish it. However, they are on record as saying they would not bring back the registry and given the history of it I can fully understand why they don't want to go there again!
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Re: Common Sense Gun Control

Unread postby Gsearch » Tue 20 Oct 2015, 17:49:05

No mater how low crime drops, as it has for 20 years in this country, they will still keep screaming for gun control. That's because it isn't about reducing crime it's about their frustrated beta chimp rage for power.
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