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E-15, the 'new' EPA Green Fuels for the USA
Posted:
Sat 16 Oct 2010, 16:10:54by Tanada
Alright I heard barely a peep about this on the news despite being surrounded on three sides by cornfields and soybeans on the fourth. However Google did find three different articles and a slew of duplicated cut and paste ones as well.
http://green.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/10/ ... cipe-sell/http://spectator.org/archives/2010/08/2 ... lism/printhttp://www.heritage.org/research/report ... -consumersSo either this is a good thing because it supports farm prices and ethanol production plants, or it is a horrible thing because it destroys our ICE gasoline design cars, or its is just a handout to big agri-business.
Take your pick and place your bet, how long till E-15 shows up in a gas station near you?
Re: E-15, the 'new' EPA Green Fuels for the USA
Posted:
Sat 16 Oct 2010, 16:18:11by Ludi
I hate this crap!
Re: E-15, the 'new' EPA Green Fuels for the USA
Posted:
Sat 16 Oct 2010, 16:44:16by Pops
Yea, I read about it somewhere too. I saw an ad in the local rag for a receptionist at an outfit that does pipefitting at ethanol plants.
+1 for jobs
Corn is on the way over $6, harvest is down per acre from last year and supplies will be low - 25 days or something. Expect higher beef and dairy prices next year - soda and Sugar Pops too.
-1e? for consumers
I'm thinking it's part of a deal with Grassley - gotta be. It just dawned on me that corn is a grass...
Re: E-15, the 'new' EPA Green Fuels for the USA
Posted:
Sat 16 Oct 2010, 17:43:03by Plantagenet
Follow the money.
Archer Daniels Midland, one of the chief corporate beneficiaries of these rule changes, is headquartered in Chicago and has a long history of giving large campaign donations to Obama, who in turn has a long history of supporting larger and larger government subsidies for Archer Daniels Midland's corn ethanol production during his four years in the Senate, and Obama strongly backed increased ethanol subsidies during his 2008 campaign, and now there is even more government pork for ethanol from Obama as president. Ka-CHING!!!!
Never mind the science or the economics showing that corn ethanol produces more CO2 then oil and has a negative EROI because it requires so much oil and fertilizer and energy to farm and distill into ethanol. This is the latest giant Ka-CHING for Obama's main backer in the corporate agribusiness world and another poke in the eye for the scientists.
Re: E-15, the 'new' EPA Green Fuels for the USA
Posted:
Sat 16 Oct 2010, 18:54:08by Pops
Re: E-15, the 'new' EPA Green Fuels for the USA
Posted:
Sat 16 Oct 2010, 19:04:02by Ludi
"Although Barack Obama apparently has received no direct campaign contributions from ADM – ADM was, however, a major sponsor of the 2008 Democratic National Convention – as a Senator from ADM’s home state of Illinois Mr. Obama was one of several farm-state Senators who staunchly opposed a Bush Administration proposal to lower the prohibitively high import duties on Brazilian ethanol made from sugar cane. During his Presidential campaign Mr. Obama vigorously defended the corn ethanol subsidy, and as President he has kept the policy firmly in place."
http://www.emergingmarketsoutlook.com/I've not been able to find a record of ADM contributions to Obama aside from him flying a couple times on ADM's private jets.
Pants on fire?
Re: E-15, the 'new' EPA Green Fuels for the USA
Posted:
Sat 16 Oct 2010, 20:10:35by Plantagenet
Ludi wrote:
I've not been able to find a record of ADM contributions to Obama aside from him flying a couple times on ADM's private jets.
Since when is getting chauffered around on a corporate jet not a contribution?
Are there special rules for Obama's rides on Archer Daniels Midland corporate jets so it doesn't count as a contribution?
Obama has a long history of supporting corn ethanol, which produces huge profits for Archer Daniels Midland.
Here is an article about Obama pushing ethanol dating from 2006.
Obama was major backer of ethanol and the E-15 standard back when he was a Senator
Re: E-15, the 'new' EPA Green Fuels for the USA
Posted:
Sat 16 Oct 2010, 20:19:35by Plantagenet
from my link above in Harper's Magazine:
"Obama has delivered for his constituents—....for business groups whose demands are invariably more costly. Although this is not the place to review the full history of ethanol, it’s beyond dispute that it survives only because members of Congress from farm states, whether liberal or conservative, have for decades managed to win billions of dollars in federal subsidies to underwrite its production. It is not, of course, family farmers who primarily benefit from the program but rather the agribusiness giants such as Illinois-based Aventine Renewable Energy and Archer Daniels Midland (for which ethanol accounts for just 5 percent of its sales but an estimated 23 percent of its profits). Ethanol production, as Tad Patzek of UC Berkeley’s Department of Civil and Environmental Engineering wrote in a report this year, is based on “the massive transfer of money from the collective pocket of the U.S. taxpayers to the transnational agricultural cartel.”
Since arriving on Capitol Hill, Obama has been as assiduous as any member of Congress in promoting ethanol.....He has introduced a number of measures that benefit the industry—such as the “Obama Amendment” that offered oil companies a 50 percent tax credit for building stations that offer E85 fuel—and voted for the corporate-welfare-laden 2005 energy bill, which offered billions in subsidies to ethanol producers "
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And the Obama administration has just mandated policies that will lead to many more billions in subsidies and profits to corporate agribusiness and ethanol producers like Archer Daniel's Midland---thats been Obama's policy for years and thats what the new E15 ruling is part of.
Re: E-15, the 'new' EPA Green Fuels for the USA
Posted:
Sat 16 Oct 2010, 20:27:28by Ludi
Plantagenet wrote:
Since when is getting chauffered around on a corporate jet not a contribution?
When it is only two flights.
I guess it depends on your personal definition of "contribution."
Pants put out!
Re: E-15, the 'new' EPA Green Fuels for the USA
Posted:
Sat 16 Oct 2010, 20:36:15by Plantagenet
Ludi wrote:Plantagenet wrote:
Since when is getting chauffered around on a corporate jet not a contribution?
When it is only two flights.
I guess it depends on your personal definition of "contribution."
You'd better light your pants back on fire---Rides on corporate jets are considered campaign donations. Its simply a fact.
Harper's reports that Obama hitched rides on corporate jets owned by Archer Daniels Midland and other corporations to the point that he himself said it was too much, and imposed a ban on himself using corporate jets.
Using corporate jets is one of the ways candidates circumvent campaign finance rules. The jets are very expensive to operate, but the candidates only report a benefit equivalent to a commercial air ticket----thats sleazy at best.
Re: E-15, the 'new' EPA Green Fuels for the USA
Posted:
Sun 17 Oct 2010, 08:02:18by Tanada
Back on the topic of E-15 please!
Does it or does it not damage standard gasoline engines?
How much of a price subsidy do fuel distributors get for selling it compared to regular unleaded?
Michigan charges sales tax in addition to gasoline tax so if you get less miles per gallon Michigan as a state will benefit, how many other states have the same system?
I have read that Kerosene-E20 has the same octane as regular unleaded but more energy per gallon so you can go further on a tank, is that true?
Re: E-15, the 'new' EPA Green Fuels for the USA
Posted:
Mon 18 Oct 2010, 11:38:01by Plantagenet
Obama's bailout for the ethanol industry
bail out for ethanolIt turns out there is a glut of ethanol, since people are driving less. Obama's friends in agribusiness are hurting. Whats the solution? Hey---lets put more ethanol into each car.
Does the science support this? Has E15 been tested to show it won't hurt cars even more then E10 does? NO, the research on E15 isn't done yet, but what the heck......there is an election coming up, so its time to roll out the teleprompter and pander Pander pander.
Re: E-15, the 'new' EPA Green Fuels for the USA
Posted:
Wed 25 Jan 2017, 08:13:23by Tanada
WASHINGTON — Growth Energy announced that the most tested fuel in history, E15, has reached a remarkable milestone.
Based on sales and consumption data reported over the past 12 months by major gasoline retailers, drivers across the United States have more than 500 million miles driven on E15, highlighting the fuel’s performance, safety and value for American consumers.
“Ethanol is already in 97 percent of the gasoline sold in the United States, so drivers are accustomed to the better value and higher performance of fuel blended with ethanol,” said Emily Skor, Growth Energy CEO. “Now drivers are finding out that E15, which contains 15 percent ethanol, is an even better choice for their wallets, their engines and the environment. That’s why more than 400 stations across 28 states are selling E15, and demand continues to grow.”
E15 works for any vehicle 2001 and newer and is the most tested fuel to date. In fact, the Department of Energy tested 86 vehicles up to 120,000 miles each using E15 without a single problem.
Additionally, automakers approve E15 for use in nearly three-quarters of new cars and the Environmental Protection Agency approves its use in nine out of 10 cars on the road today.
http://www.agrinews-pubs.com/farm_equip ... e8007.html
Re: E-15, the 'new' EPA Green Fuels for the USA
Posted:
Wed 25 Jan 2017, 10:26:37by Newfie
Tanada,
Ethanol is death to small ICEs. It needs to be run frequently so as to flush out the gunk it leaves behind. If you run a small engine and then let it sit for any period of time it will clog up the carbrator, which you need to disassemble and degunk.
Marinas and gas stations around a waterfront with significant small boat activity will sell "ethanol free" gas at a preminum. If not you will find inside products like Stabil, additives to stabilize the fuel and prevent the gunk.
Besides that rant I believe the UN holds our ethanol production as responsible for much of the hunger in the world. Now I think that's bunk because if fed better people would just breed faster, not a good thing. So IF ethanol has any positive benefit it is to limit population growth. Other than that it's just depleting our fields.
Edit: I just noticed that piece was by AGRINEWS. figures.
Re: E-15, the 'new' EPA Green Fuels for the USA
Posted:
Wed 25 Jan 2017, 12:06:12by Tanada
Newfie wrote:Tanada,
Ethanol is death to small ICEs. It needs to be run frequently so as to flush out the gunk it leaves behind. If you run a small engine and then let it sit for any period of time it will clog up the carbrator, which you need to disassemble and degunk.
Marinas and gas stations around a waterfront with significant small boat activity will sell "ethanol free" gas at a preminum. If not you will find inside products like Stabil, additives to stabilize the fuel and prevent the gunk.
Besides that rant I believe the UN holds our ethanol production as responsible for much of the hunger in the world. Now I think that's bunk because if fed better people would just breed faster, not a good thing. So IF ethanol has any positive benefit it is to limit population growth. Other than that it's just depleting our fields.
Edit: I just noticed that piece was by AGRINEWS. figures.
Yes small engines, especially of the 2 cycle variety are almost junk when brand new so it takes painfully little corrosion to make them effectively dead. On top of that most manufacturers use the super cheap plastic fuel tubing and sponge system that does not play nice with ethanol and as you put it 'gunks up' over long exposure times.
The UN is full of beans because the corn used by the majority of ethanol plants in the USA is stripped of its starch and the 40 percent of mass left over, Brewers Grain, is used as high protein livestock feed. The idea that humans are being deprived has more to do with the fact that America feeds so much grain to livestock instead of making them graze like we used too, not that the grain is processed to remove starch first.
Re: E-15, the 'new' EPA Green Fuels for the USA
Posted:
Wed 25 Jan 2017, 15:00:44by Newfie
Tanada,
You may be right about the UN, just quoting what I have heard.
As to small engines ethanol is a serious and we'll documented problem. Just google "ethanol fuel problem", if anything I understated the issue.
One point of reference from my own experience. We have a Honda EU2000 generator, a fine piece of kit. They are widely used due to their superior construction, reliability, and low noise, but expensive. I ran ours a few hours from new and let it sit for a couple of months. Then it would not start. Using online info about this issue I took the carb apart and found it coated with gunk. I cleaned and reassembled and now it works fine. E10 fuel, no stabilizer added. Talk to ANY small engine mechanic and you will get the same story.
Re: E-15, the 'new' EPA Green Fuels for the USA
Posted:
Wed 25 Jan 2017, 15:02:40by Tanada
pstarr wrote:"The UN is full of beans because the corn used by the majority of ethanol plants in the USA is stripped of its starch and the 40 percent of mass left over, Brewers Grain, is used as high protein livestock feed. "
"the majority of ethanol plants in the USA is stripped of its starch" what does this even mean? Yes, plants (ie factories) have no starch . . . they have steel and concrete. But No, corn hydrolyzed and fermented into alcohol is starch. Only starch.
Incidentally, the remaining protein is fed to livestock, at a price in processing and transport and storage.
Sometime Pete you go off on these weird tangents as if you did not read the post you are responding too, and then you repeat the same points made in the post as if you were the one who discovered those bits of knowledge.