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Face it: we are a country divided.

We should have both the NE and the West Coast secede from the union. Very different people with very different values than the South and parts of the midwest. Regardless who wins, why should a group of states have to be enslaved and commandeered by those who have values completely different than their own?

Why not allow a government that represents the will of the people in their particular states? If it can't do that, then those states should secede.

Now you know how I felt when Clinton got elected the 2nd time around.

We are divided. I feel the USA (as we know it) won't be around much longer. I don't think Bush or Kerry matters much. It is the other "perfect storm" problems that will be the cause.

Are you guys going to do the civil war thing again??

Not yet, everyone still has plenty of energy. Check back with me in 10 years.

Osama will love reading this thread. He predicted that he would partition America why prove him wrong?

breaking up of the states of the USA in to independent nations sounds like a great way to end the superpower nature of the USA today

iam all for it

Funny that you should bring up partitioning the US.

This was the premise of the classic green sf novel Ecotopia by Ernest Callenbach (1975). In the book, the US was plagued by foreign wars, and rampant consumerism... sound familiar?

The West Coast decided it would have no more of it, so N. California, Oregon, Wash and British Columnbia broke away and formed the new nation of Ecotopia as described in the book.

Is this dream from the 70s coming back again?

This time we'd form an alliance with our fellow blue states on the Eastern seaboard.

25 years ago, Joel Garreau wrote a book on this, arguing the North America really was nine nations, that at times exist in conflict with each other. They are:

1. Ecotopia (northwest US+BC and ALaskan panhandle)
2. Mexamerica (northern mexico and much of the old spanish/mexican counties of the US southwest.
3. Dixie (All of the contemporary south from the non mexican part of Texas to the edge of the Virginia suburbs of the DC (not S. Florida tho)
4. The Islands - S. FLorida and most of the Caribbean Islands.
5. The Foundary - The industrial heartland, from the western great lakes over to Atlantic coast from Maryland north to Conneticut.
6. New England - The states of the northeast from past NY and the English speaking maritimes of Canada.
7. Quebec - Duh.
8. The Bread basket - the grain states from the Texas pan handle East of the 100 degree West meridian up to southern plain provinces of canada (saskatchian) over to the boundaries of the foundary.
9. The intermountain west that is beyond the mexican/hispanic influence and not dependant on growing things like the Breadbasket.

Joel Garreau also tossed in DC, Alaska and Hawaii as abberations to the above nations. A generation I find these arguements still valid, though some boundaries may have shifted.

Its still a good read.

Nine nations and Red vs Blue

1. Ecotopia - definate BLUE
2. Mexamerica - culturally/politically blue, ecologically RED
3. Dixie - Definately RED
4. The Islands - BLUE culturally/politically, RED otherwise
5. The Foundary - Economically BLUE, split culturally/politcally.
6. New England - Definately Blue.
7. Quebec - Bleu? No?
8. The Bread basket - Definate RED
9. The Empty Quarter (The intermountain west) - Yup. Red

ABBERATIONS:
1. Alaska - Red
2. Hawaii - Blue
3. DC - Whatever color is in control of the US admin is.

You guys need to do an internet search on "John Titor".

A few years ago a guy claiming to be a time traveler from 2036 started posting on a message board.According to him the next American civil war would start around the 2004 elections.He said it would start out very gradually with a few minor skirmishes here and there but by 2008 it would blossom into all out civil war.

Now I'm 99.9% sure it's all a bunch of crap,but because of certain things he said there's that .1% of me that goes"hmmmmmm". Now understand,these posts are proven to have been written at certain dates and several things he says will happen,happened.For example,he said Bush would be elected president,well before the 2000 elections,and basically stated we would go to war with Iraq over weapons of mass destruction that did not exist.

Like I said,I'm 99.9% skeptic on this one,but it is a very interesting read.

From my POV: Nine nations and Red vs Blue

1. Ecotopia - definate BLUE

2. Mexamerica - Pretty strongly RED. Amazing mix, though. Lots of people in Hollywood, Vegas, and the Porn Belt are right-wingers, somehow.

3. Dixie - Definately RED

4. The Islands - I can't say, and probably mixed.

5. The Foundary - Economically BLUE, split culturally. The thing is, the Foundry has been shrinking dramatically with the end of manufacturing in the US. The cities of the Foundry are still Blue, but the suburbs of Cleveland, Cinnci, St Louis, Buffalo and more are Dixie RED. The rural of the states has been in Dixie for a while.

6. New England - Definately Blue.

7. Quebec - Bleu? Oui!

8. The Bread basket - One that will surprise you. Been getting REDder in the southern plains, but a bed of populism still resides in MN, IA, and WI. Also very notable, the breadbasket includes Sask. and Manitoba. These two provinces are similar to Kansas and Nebraska in many ways, yet are home to incredible BLUE-wing populism, and populism could take root in the rural US plains again.

9. The Empty Quarter (The intermountain west) - Yup. Red

ABBERATIONS:
1. Alaska - Red. Not too abberrant... is part of the 'Empty Quarter' (number 9 above), excepting the southeast panhandle (part of Ecotopia).

2. Hawaii - Cannot say.

3. DC - The permanent residents of DC are deep BLUE. But it is an amazing town, with BLUE MD suburbs and RED VA suburbs.

4. Newfoundland - BLUE-ish on a US scale, but rather conservative. Germane to PeakOil, wants more independence as it has a good energy profile (offshore oil, hydro in Labrador, and the possibility of more hydro). Not happy with Quebec or Ottawa on energy matters.

The COUNTRY is dividied?!
My ASS it is! Theres about 4% of the American area that voted Demorat. Check the map my friend, the COUNTRY is united. Its a handful of areas that went blue. I say ship'm to France if they love communism and oppression so much.



You tell me who needs to be "divided". We need to box up all the people in the blue areas, ship'm to Cali, bring the red from cali into the blue areas everywhere else and tell Kali to go be a Socialist State like they want to and let them leave the Union.

Chicagoan wrote:Face it: we are a country divided.

We should have both the NE and the West Coast secede from the union. Very different people with very different values than the South and parts of the midwest. Regardless who wins, why should a group of states have to be enslaved and commandeered by those who have values completely different than their own?

Why not allow a government that represents the will of the people in their particular states? If it can't do that, then those states should secede.

This is exactly why I vote against big government be it Bush or Kerry every chance I get. I feel pretty safe saying that a vast majority of the issues that the federal government sticks it's nose into should be decided at a state level not by some derelict overhyped car salesman that has never even been to the state I live in. Yeah, you could say I'm pissing away my vote but, when the polls show where the electorate is going by a landslide it doesn't really matter. For me, it's more a matter of protest than principal.

Specop_007 wrote:The COUNTRY is dividied?!
My ASS it is! Theres about 4% of the American area that voted Demorat. Check the map my friend, the COUNTRY is united. Its a handful of areas that went blue. I say ship'm to France if they love communism and oppression so much.

First, your chart is completely misleading. Because a majority voted Republican, even if only 51%, you call it red. You should be smarter than that. I'll teach you some basic statistics sometime.

Second, I think it would be great to take those who voted for Kerry and locate them somewhere. Not France. We've got 48% of the people behind us, and if you look at the centers of wealth and economic creation, they are located in the blue regions.

trespam wrote:

Specop_007 wrote:

First, your chart is completely misleading. Because a majority voted Republican, even if only 51%, you call it red. You should be smarter than that. I'll teach you some basic statistics sometime.

51% is the majority of the population. Statistically speaking, those counties that are red are Republican and support Bush. So, its accruate to say the majority of the country (by land area) is Republican.
I realize the downfall of the argument. That still leaves potentially 49% of the population that voted sKerry. But the point is, 51% is over half, and by my book that shows a unified front. I mean hell, you could say 100% of Americans are against child pornography and technically be right. Most every American IS against it. But, there are enough out there (1% maybe?) who dig that sort of thing which would make your statement false.
Its really argueing semantics are that point.

trespam, your map is misleading because it does not take into account population density (Rhode Island= 370.8 person per square kilometer, Utah= 8.1 ppsk!).

Specop_007 wrote:The COUNTRY is dividied?!

Apparently, it is divided. Look at where the blue areas are and think.

The NE liberals mostly went for Kerry, as you might expect. But so did the Blacks around D.C., the Mestizoes in southern Texas, LA, certain reservation Indians, and the Blacks living just east of the southern Mississippi River. Oh, and in Jacksonville, FL. It's an interesting correlation between election results and racial demographics - even if it is based on a mistaken belief that a "conservative" Republican president will be less generous to minorities than a "liberal" democrat president would be. Many among the minorities seem to believe the president is his own man.

Jerry Abbott

Specop_007 wrote:... I say ship'm to France if they love communism and oppression so much.

Well! At least French are more ready for peak oil thanks to years of real government and long term planning by people having more than 80 words in their vocabulary and not looking for advice in the bible on how to lead a country.

A Frenchy speaking

Actually, your map would look almost totally purple -- if purple defines the people who believe a big, corporate-allied government and eternally inexpensive fossil fuels can solve every problem.

With Bush in, it just means our energy future is continued military attempts to control much of the world and its resources.

Can 5 percent of the world's population dominate the rest? We'll see ...