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All the hysteria over this film was entirely overblown.

Those people who fearfully demanded censorship apparently let their fears run away with them..

I just watched Fitna and I see no lies or exaggerations. After all he is just using media clips mostly from Muslim sources. However, I suppose the cartoon of Mohammed with the bomb beanie is enough to get Geert's head separated from the rest of him.

Plantagenet wrote:I saw it yesterday when it was released. Its overdone and melodramatic by US production standards, but then its mainly targetted at the Dutch audience.

Yeah...if even Americans don't take the bait then Dutch people will certainly not take it.

Plantagenet wrote:The quotes from the Koran and Sura are respectfully done, with a beautiful Koran being read in Arabic and the translation shown beside the book.

Very good animations...best part of the entire movie.

Plantagenet wrote:The Dutch fears about this movie seem to have been exaggerated, so far. No riots, no bombings, no murders have occurred.

One thing i noticed today was the reaction of politicians. They where all smiling and talking about how relieved they are about the movie and how proud they are on the Muslim population for staying calm and rational. The media and the politicians are clearly working very very hard to keep the situation under control.

(I suppose, if something is going to happen, a potential terrorist need a few days to prepare. I give it a week before admitting the fears are exaggerated.)

Plantagenet wrote:Did it have that effect on you? Do you hate and fear Moslems now?

I remember you posted earlier that the movie would somehow cause people to start rioting and killing other people.

Now that you've seen it---did it cause you to do a criminal act in protest against the film?

I don't fear or hate anyone and i'm rational enough to not let a movie like this influence me in any way.

The thing i'm worried about is the possibility that many Dutch and Muslim people don't have this rationality and allow this movie to influence their thoughts (in the wrong way). There is already a lot of...racism is the right word...between Dutch and Muslim people and this movie can only make it worse, not better.

DomusAlbion wrote:However, I suppose the cartoon of Mohammed with the bomb beanie is enough to get Geert's head separated from the rest of him.

Geert didn't think about copyright laws.
Mohammed cartoon author to sue Dutch MP
Isn't that funny?

Have fun!
Roach

DomusAlbion wrote:I just watched Fitna and I see no lies or exaggerations. After all he is just using media clips mostly from Muslim sources. However, I suppose the cartoon of Mohammed with the bomb beanie is enough to get Geert's head separated from the rest of him.

Geert was already getting death threats from Islamic religious people for other non-PC things he'd previously said.

Now German Muslims are angry about German play based on Salmon Rushdie book

German Muslims seething over play

Darn those artists. Why don't they all just censor themselves and never do anything that might offend Muslims??

Death threats against website cause FITNA to be taken down

Islamic religous nuts threaten violence

Hmmmm----novels, cartoons, movies, museums, plays, websites in the EU are all censored or under threat by Islamic extremists.

Plantagenet wrote:Hmmmm----novels, cartoons, movies, museums, plays, websites in the EU are all censored or under threat by Islamic extremists.

Religion of peace strikes again.

Bomb all Islamic countries with porn magazines. And after 1 week bomb them again with more porn. That will sure cause them a headache

Ah, the wonderful world of Muzlims and Kuffar. Always content with stirring new problems where they didn't exist before, rather than solving previous ones.

Bomb all Islamic countries with porn magazines. And after 1 week bomb them again with more porn. That will sure cause them a headache

That would just result in a couple tens of million more little Muzlims within a period of a year. Talk about blowback.

Plantagenet wrote:Death threats against website cause FITNA to be taken down

Islamic religous nuts threaten violence

Hmmmm----novels, cartoons, movies, museums, plays, websites in the EU are all censored or under threat by Islamic extremists.

As I recall it, it was the American media who refused to reprint the cartoons etc; all this stuff comes from Europe in the first place. Furthermore, it seems the American government is far more succesfull and willing to go much farther to surpress "dissident" voices, Valerie Plame anyone?

Either way following the media on this, the Fitna movie seems to, paradoxally, have started a more or less constructive dialogue, between the West and the Muslim world, but maybe more importantly within the Muslim world. I don't like the confrontational approach too much myself, but indeed sometimes it can turn out in a positive way. Well, these are preliminary and maybe premature conclusions, we'll see. Nothing happened in Holland so far apart from talk about boycotting products. I guess we won't be finishing "the world" in Dubai now...

Bas wrote: the Fitna movie seems to, paradoxally, have started a more or less constructive dialogue, between the West and the Muslim world, but maybe more importantly within the Muslim world.

Its not paradoxical at all.

Its in the very nature of free speech. When people are free to express their views on controversial issues, then it leads to constructive dialogue about those issues.

Its the death threats and soft censorship that cause the problems, not the cartoons or the movies or the museum exhibits or the plays or the exercise of free speech.

Plantagenet wrote:
Its not paradoxical at all.

Its in the very nature of free speech. When people are free to express their views on controversial issues, then it leads to constructive dialogue about those issues.

Its the death threats and soft censorship that cause the problems, not the cartoons or the movies or the museum exhibits or the plays or the exercise of free speech.

it's funny to see how all the western media and governments are falling over eachother to say that the vast majority of the Muslims are moderate peace loving people, after focusing for years on the negative aspects of Islam, giving the fundamentalists more attention than they deserve etc, brainwashing the populace and you in the process.

On the other hand many here "feared" that the movie would be more insulting etc than it finally turned out to be; I'm still not agreeing with it's message but with this aftermath (the West has obviously learned from the cartoon debacle) I indeed feel strengtened in my belief in freedom of expression (and freedom to disagree with that expression)

Bas wrote: many here "feared" that the movie would be more insulting etc than it finally turned out to be

Its best not to allow fearful people to control what can be shown in movie theatres or written in books or drawn by artists.

Plantagenet wrote:

Bas wrote: many here "feared" that the movie would be more insulting etc than it finally turned out to be

Its best not to allow fearful people to control what can be shown in movie theatres or written in books.

oh I agree, and I'm glad we have very good laws for that here, though there is a law against "godslastering" here, not sure how to translate it; blasphemy would be too strong. As I understand it it's a very general law that hasn't been applied in a case for 50 years but wouldve been applied if Wilders had been ripping pages out of the koran in his movie (which the speculation was he might do, if you see what I mean)

are you self censoring now Plant? All American Muslim hating...ehh Plant?

Fitna is back on the web. "Livelink" took it down after threats, but now they say they've improved their security and they've made it available again If you want to see the horrible, evil Fitna movie, here it is again.

horrible evil controversial supposedly anti-Moslem Fitna movie

Note: this is the english version.

A question-and-answer session with Imam Abdul Makin in an East London mosque asks why Allah would tell Muslims to kill and rape innocent non-Muslims.

"Because non-Muslims are never innocent, they are guilty of denying Allah and his prophet," the Imam says, according to the report. "If you don't believe me, here is the legal authority, the top Muslim lawyer of Britain."

The lawyer, Anjem Choudary, backs up the Imam's position, saying that all Muslims are innocent.

You are innocent if you are a Muslim," Choudary tells the BBC. "Then you are innocent in the eyes of God. If you are not a Muslim, then you are guilty of not believing in God."

Choudary said he would not condemn a Muslim for any action.

"As a Muslim, I must support my Muslim brothers and sisters," Choudary said. "I must have hatred to everything that is not Muslim."

--BBC

You forgot the link (and before you click, this is NOT Rick Astley):

http://youtube.com/watch?v=maHSOB2RFm4&feature=related

Wilders fears he will be found guilty and sent to prison in only a few months.

"Even before Fitna was released early last year, Doekle Terpstra, a leading member of the Dutch establishment, called for mass rallies to protest the movie. Terpstra organized a coalition of political, business, academic, and religious leaders, the sole purpose of which was to try to freeze Wilders out of public debate. Dutch cities are riddled with terrorist cells and crowded with fundamentalist Muslims who cheered 9/11 and idolize Osama bin Laden, but for Terpstra and his political allies, the real problem was the one Member of Parliament who wouldn't shut up. "Geert Wilders is evil," pronounced Terpstra, "and evil has to be stopped." Fortuyn, van Gogh, and Hirsi Ali had been stopped; now it was Wilders's turn.

But Wilders--who for years now has lived under 24-hour armed guard--would not be gagged. Thus the disgraceful decision to put him on trial. In Dutch Muslim schools and mosques, incendiary rhetoric about the Netherlands, America, Jews, gays, democracy, and sexual equality is routine; a generation of Dutch Muslims are being brought up with toxic attitudes toward the society in which they live. And no one is ever prosecuted for any of this. Instead, a court in the Netherlands--a nation once famous for being an oasis of free speech--has now decided to prosecute a member of the national legislature for speaking his mind. By doing so, it proves exactly what Wilders has argued all along: that fear and "sensitivity" to a religion of submission are destroying Dutch freedom."

Submission in the Netherlands