[diemos]

diemos said:
Thimerosol is a mercury-based preservative that has been removed from almost all vaccines to try to quell unfounded panic.

An absolute falsehood, that looks to be intentional, or the author can't read (which must remain a possibility).

"No. Thimerosal hasn’t been used in vaccines for children since 2001.
However, thimerosal is still used in some flu vaccines. Yearly flu vaccines are recommended for all children.  If you are worried about thimerosal, you can ask for a flu vaccine without it."

For CHILDREN. And get your kid vaccinated for the flue. Right. Otherwise they may develop natural immunities, and might not need our vaccine in the future, and you may have to live with a bitchy kid for up to 3 days.
https://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/conce ... /faqs.html

"All vaccines routinely recommended for children 6 years of age and younger in the U.S. are available in formulations that do not contain thimerosal."
https://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/conce ... /faqs.html

Perhaps you should work on your reading comprehension. It was the first bullet point.

And since they took the thimerosal out of vaccines in 2001 nothing changed. So we can safely conclude that the thimerosal wasn't doing anything harmful to begin with.

And the only thing that natural immunity gives you that a vaccine doesn't is a 1 in 1000 chance of a multi week stay in the ICU fighting off crippling or fatal complications from the disease your kid is going through.

Which is why vaccines are the most cost effective medical intervention ever, since the cost of giving 1000 kids a vaccine is way less than the cost of 1 in a 1000 going to the ICU for a couple of weeks.

[REAL Green]

“Coronavirus may have been a 'cell-culture experiment' gone wrong”
https://www.skynews.com.au/details/_6158843835001

“EXCLUSIVE: The coronavirus that has become a world-wide pandemic may have been created in a “cell-culture experiment” in a laboratory, according to prominent scientists who have conducted ground-breaking research into the origins of the virus. Flinders University Professor Nikolai Petrovsky has completed a scientific study, currently undergoing peer review, in conjunction with La Trobe University in Victoria, which found COVID-19 was uniquely adapted for transmission to humans, far more than any other animal, including bats. Professor Petrovsky, from the College of Medicine and Public Health at Flinders University who has spent the past 20 years developing vaccines against pandemic influenza, Ebola and animal SARS, said this highly unusual finding left open the possibility that the virus leaked from a laboratory. “The two possibilities which I think are both still open is that it was a chance transmission of a virus from an as yet unidentified animal to human. The other possibility is that it was an accidental release of the virus from a laboratory,” he said. “Certainly we can’t exclude the possibility that this came from a laboratory experiment rather than from an animal. They are both open possibilities.” Professor Petrovsky, who is the Chairman and Research Director of Vaxine Pty Ltd, said COVID-19 has genetic elements similar to bat coronaviruses as well as other coronaviruses. The way coronavirus enters human cells is by binding to a protein on the surface of lung-cells called ACE2. The study showed the virus bound more tightly to human-ACE2 than to any of the other animals they tested. “It was like it was designed to infect humans,” he said.”

[diemos]

The study showed the virus bound more tightly to human-ACE2 than to any of the other animals they tested.

This is going to be true for any human pandemic virus. Regardless of whether it evolved naturally or not.

And when one of our endemic corona viruses mutates and jumps to pigs they're going to find that it binds more tightly to pig-ACE2 receptors. Because that's what has to happen for it to jump the species barrier and become pandemic.

[Plantagenet]

The study showed the virus bound more tightly to human-ACE2 than to any of the other animals they tested.

This is going to be true for any human pandemic virus. Regardless of whether it evolved naturally or not.

And when one of our endemic corona viruses mutates and jumps to pigs they're going to find that it binds more tightly to pig-ACE2 receptors. Because that's what has to happen for it to jump the species barrier and become pandemic.

Whoa there. You didn't understand the science in the report that REAL Green linked to.

Some corona viruses can affect several different species at once....this is how they jump from species to species. For instance a Bat corona virus might also be capable of infecting a pangolin and a cat and a human, lets say.

But if the corona virus was resident for a long time in the bat population, then evolution will tend to make the virus most efficient at infecting bats. Yes, other species might be able to get it, but it is resident in bats then it should evolve in such a way that it most efficiently infects bats, since thats what it is doing. The ability to infect other species only occurs because other species have some cells that are somewhat similar to bats.

This new study shows that the Wuhan virus is most efficient at infecting HUMANS. No virus would evolve that way if it was resident in a population of bats. It might JUMP to humans, but it would still be the same virus that was resident in bats and evolved to infect bats.

The new study shows that this virus is best adapted to infect humans. That suggests that (1) perhaps it was resident somewhere in a population of humans for a very long time and evolved there so that it most efficiently infects humans. But no such population of infected humans off somewhere with the virus seems to exist. The virus appears for the first time in Wuhan and its ALREADY evolved to best infect humans.

So that means (2) it must have already been modified in some way to make it very efficient at infecting humans when it first appears in Wuhan infecting humans.

The scientific paper suggests that this could be done in human cell cultures in a lab, i.e. if a lab-------say a lab in Wuhan-----was cultivating Corornavirus in human cell cultures to see how the virus infected humans, then the virus might be modified or perhaps was even allowed to evolve in the cell cultures to become very efficient at infecting humans.

This is a very important scientific discovery..

Its the first strong scientific evidence that this virus is highly evolved specifically to infect humans-----not bats or pangolins or cats or anything else. That suggests this virus may be have cultivated in human cell cultures in a lab and evolved as part of that study to be highly efficient at infecting humans. AND, although this study doesn't reach any firm conclusions as to what lab that was, we know the Wuhan lab both collected bat coronaviruses from all over China and brought them back to the Wuhan lab and was engaged in research on those virus, including attempts to genetically modify those viruses, as the Wuhan lab published a research paper about doing this a couple of years ago.


I know its a scary thought that Chinese scientists might have made a boo-boo in their research on the bat viruses leading to the novel coronavirus global disease pandemic we are in now, but trust me----scientists make boo-boos all the time. Usually not this disastrous, but I can imagine this happening very easily.

Cheers!

[diemos]

This new study shows that the Wuhan virus is most efficient at infecting HUMANS. No virus would evolve that way if it was resident in a population of bats. It might JUMP to humans, but it would still be the same virus that was resident in bats and evolved to infect bats.

Evolution is a random process. A virus that has a random mutation that make it efficient at infecting humans will be the one that jumps the species barrier and becomes endemic regardless of its original host species.

[Plantagenet]

This new study shows that the Wuhan virus is most efficient at infecting HUMANS. No virus would evolve that way if it was resident in a population of bats. It might JUMP to humans, but it would still be the same virus that was resident in bats and evolved to infect bats.

Evolution is a random process. A virus that has a random mutation that make it efficient at infecting humans will be the one that jumps the species barrier and becomes endemic regardless of its original host species.

Actually, no.

You don't need a mutation for viruses to jump between species. Thats why things like the bird flu and the swine flu occur frequently. Humans can be affected by viruses that evolve in birds and swine and even bats. Bird virus most efficiently target birds, but they can make humans sick. Swine viruses and bat viruses most efficiently target swine and bats, but humans can still get sick.

But thats not what the Covid-19 is.

The novel coronavirus Covid-19 is most similar to bat viruses, but it has evolved so it now is a human virus, i.e. it most efficiently targets humans.

That won't happen in a colony of bats in a cave. That kind of evolution can only occur in a population of humans.

Mutations are random...but evolution is not random. Mutations happen all the time...but most of them actually harm organisms. Evolution occurs because some random mutation provides some kind of advantage to the organism, allowing organisms with that particular mutation to flourish. Evolution is not random....it occurs when it helps organisms to flourish and spread into new environments. A mutation in a bat virus in a bat cave that made the virus more efficient at infecting humans then bats would be out-competed by the virus that mainly target bats. It wouldn't survive.

In contrast, a corona virus from a bat, placed in a human cell culture, would be capable of infecting those cells, and through time it would mutate and evolve so that it could more efficiently thrive in human cell cultures. And if that mutated virus got loose, then it would most efficiently infect humans, and not be as efficient at infecting other species because it has evolved to infect humans.

And that seems to be what we're dealing with in the current pandemic. This virus didn't jump directly from a bat to humans.....this new research shows the covid-19 virus had already evolved from a bat virus into a human virus that most efficiently infects humans before it first appears in Wuhan. And where did that evolution from bat virus to human virus take place? Perhaps in a human cell culture in a petri dish in a lab somewhere......

CHEERS!

[diemos]

Mutations are random...but evolution is not random.

Evolution is random mutation plus selection. Selection is environment dependent.

A virus in a bat that mutates to be infectious to humans will most likely die. Except for that one in a whatever chance that it will land in a human respiratory tract. Then it will find a perfect environment to be fruitful and multiply ... and will proceed to be fruitful and multiply with some of its descendent landing on other human beings respiratory tracts and ... ta da! ... pandemic.

That's all it takes. No human meddling with its genome required.

Unlikely, but then that's why pandemics don't spring up every other day.

[Plantagenet]

A virus in a bat that mutates to be infectious to humans will most likely die. Except for that one in a whatever chance that it will land in a human respiratory tract....
That's all it takes. No human meddling with its genome required.

Actually, no.

The covid-19 virus is genetically far enough removed from bat viruses that it had to have been resident for some amount of time in some kind of intermediate host. Thats why there has been a lot of discussion about pangolins....except there is no virus remotely like this in any known population of pangolins and this virus isn't evolved or modified to make it infectious to pangolins as it would be if it had spent time in a population of pangolins.....so the intermediate species isn't pangolins.

So really your idea needs a whole series of unlikely events to happen....first the bat virus would have to evolve somewhere in bats living in a bat cave in south China ca. 1000 miles from Wuhan and then it would have to miraculously get in to some unknown mystery intermediate species. And then this unknown species would have to migrate to Wuhan, all the while hosting the virus while it magically evolves to be especially infectious to humans.....and only then could the "one in a whatever chance" you are calling upon take it from the mystery unknown species into humans in Wuhan.

Alternatively, the leak from the lab in Wuhan is a much simpler hypothesis that is also more consistent with the known data and the way virus actually are known to evolve. In this hypothesis the scientists studying bat virus collect bat viruses in southern China and bring them back to Wuhan....something we know happened. Then the scientists study and experiment on bat viruses....something we know happened. As part of these experiments they grow bat viruses on human cell cultures and the virus evolves to be especially infectious to humans because its evolving to live on the human cell cultures......something that fits the new scientific data and is exactly what would happen if a virus was allowed to evolve to successfully live on human cell cultures. And then the virus escapes the lab.....something we know has happened repeatedly.


Cell cultures are commonly used in bio labs to grow microorganisms. In fact, I've grown microorganisms on cell cultures myself when I worked in a research lab at a medical school.

Cheers!

[REAL Green]

“French Intelligence Warned Of 'Catastrophic Leak' From Wuhan Lab”
https://www.zerohedge.com/health/french ... -wuhan-lab

“Eleven years before the joint construction of the Wuhan Institute of Virology, French intelligence services warned Paris that China's reputation for poor bio-security could lead to a 'catastrophic leak,' according to the Daily Mail. In 2004, the EU's chief brexit negotiator, Michael Barnier, ignored those warnings - signing off on the lab's construction when he was the French foreign minister. According to the report, French intel also warned that Paris could lose control of the facility, and that Beijing could even use it to make biowarfare weapons. And in 2015, as the laboratory prepared to open, those concerns were realized after the French architects of the project said the CCP had shut them out. In fact, 50 French scientists were supposed to help the Chinese run the laboratory properly, but never ended up going. The Mail discovered Barnier's involvement in the Wuhan Institute of Virology during an in-depth investigation into French connections to the lab - where many believe the coronavirus escaped from, as the WIV housed a group of scientists who received international condemnation for creating chimeric strains that could infect humans. Under the 'escaped' scenario, an infected WIV employee unknowingly brought it into the Wuhan wet market, exposing what would become roughly half of the first known cluster of cases.”

[dissident]

All the hypocritical posturing about China's bad behaviour. The USA is opening up similar labs in every ex-USSR republic where it stages a successful colour regime change operation. What controls are in place to prevent leaks from these facilities? Looks like the USA is going for plausible deniability when those biowarfare operations "accidentally" release certain engineered strains of virus by claiming it was local incompetents who screwed up like the Chinese. In fact, all this propaganda BS about Wuhan is exactly a tool to enable such plausible deniability arguments. Western mass media consumer saps will have been potty trained on the right reflex.

[REAL Green]

All the hypocritical posturing about China's bad behaviour. The USA is opening up similar labs in every ex-USSR republic where it stages a successful colour regime change operation.

Do you have any examples? Not saying that statement is false just would like to know where and with who.

What controls are in place to prevent leaks from these facilities? Looks like the USA is going for plausible deniability when those biowarfare operations "accidentally" release certain engineered strains of virus by claiming it was local incompetents who screwed up like the Chinese.

The US has responsibility for what happen in Wuhan becuase it was sponsoring some of the research there.

In fact, all this propaganda BS about Wuhan is exactly a tool to enable such plausible deniability arguments. Western mass media consumer saps will have been potty trained on the right reflex.

The facts are pretty obvious. I have 30 articles I saved on the subject with only a few that are the CIA virus plant version or the virus came from an animal version that is from scientist and media very careful not to upset their Chinese benefactors. Most point to a Chinese screw up then an even worse coverup that allowed the virus to infect the world.

[REAL Green]

“Coronavirus Uses Same Strategy As HIV To Evade, Cripple Immune System: Chinese Study Finds”
https://www.zerohedge.com/health/corona ... tudy-finds

“As we reported in April, Professor Luc Montagnier, the 2008 Nobel Prize winner for Medicine, claimed that SARS-CoV-2 is a manipulated virus that was accidentally released from a laboratory in Wuhan, China, and added that the WUhan laboratory, known for its work on coronaviruses, tried to use one of these viruses as a vector for HIV in the search for an AIDS vaccine. Needless to say, since this narrative was destructive to China and all those self-proclaimed experts who had vowed there is no way the Wuhan virus was i) manmade, ii) released by a Chinese lab and iii) had HIV-insertions, the story was quickly buried and never received as much as a minute of airtime in conventional media sources. That may all change now, as a result of the third, and perhaps most startling yet twist in the bizarre saga of the coronavirus, after the South China Morning Post reported that a new study by Chinese scientists has found that the novel coronavirus uses the same strategy to evade attack from the human immune system as HIV.”

[REAL Green]

“NIH Director: Can't Rule Out COVID-19 'Isolated And Studied' In Wuhan Lab”
https://www.zerohedge.com/health/nih-di ... -wuhan-lab

“The Director of the National Institutes of Health (NIH) can be added to the growing chorus of rational voices who are open to the possibility that SARS-CoV-2 could have escaped from the Wuhan Institute of Virology (WIV) - where scientists infamous for creating hybrid bat coronaviruses that can infect humans swear they have nothing to do with the current outbreak. NIH Director Francis Collins says that while he believes coronavirus was "absolutely not" genetically engineered, he cannot rule out the possibility that it escaped from the Wuhan lab.”

[shortonoil]

That may all change now, as a result of the third, and perhaps most startling yet twist in the bizarre saga of the coronavirus, after the South China Morning Post reported that a new study by Chinese scientists has found that the novel coronavirus uses the same strategy to evade attack from the human immune system as HIV.”

Virus swap parts of their genome with bacterium, and other virus continually. So, an HIV infected worker at the lab also got infected by a corona virus; went to the wet market and breathed on some fish. As long as Bio Weapon's labs are allowed to exist this will continue to happen. Bio Weapons development is a form of social insanity driven by a death wish. We can blame it on the Chinese, or the real culprit. Human arrogance and stupidity. Fortunately this mistake resulted in a bad case of the flu. The next one may produce a new Bubonic Plague.

[asg70]

“French Intelligence Warned Of 'Catastrophic Leak' From Wuhan Lab”
https://www.zerohedge.com/health/french ... -wuhan-lab

Apparently you still haven't gotten the memo. zerohedge = worthless

[Outcast_Searcher]

This new study shows that the Wuhan virus is most efficient at infecting HUMANS. No virus would evolve that way if it was resident in a population of bats. It might JUMP to humans, but it would still be the same virus that was resident in bats and evolved to infect bats.

Evolution is a random process. A virus that has a random mutation that make it efficient at infecting humans will be the one that jumps the species barrier and becomes endemic regardless of its original host species.

He says what he thinks is convenient, re science. Like when he tries to claim that BEV's cause cancer, by twisting things.

[Outcast_Searcher]

This new study shows that the Wuhan virus is most efficient at infecting HUMANS. No virus would evolve that way if it was resident in a population of bats. It might JUMP to humans, but it would still be the same virus that was resident in bats and evolved to infect bats.

Evolution is a random process. A virus that has a random mutation that make it efficient at infecting humans will be the one that jumps the species barrier and becomes endemic regardless of its original host species.

Actually, no.

You don't need a mutation for viruses to jump between species. Thats why things like the bird flu and the swine flu occur frequently. Humans can be affected by viruses that evolve in birds and swine and even bats. Bird virus most efficiently target birds, but they can make humans sick. Swine viruses and bat viruses most efficiently target swine and bats, but humans can still get sick.

But thats not what the Covid-19 is.

The novel coronavirus Covid-19 is most similar to bat viruses, but it has evolved so it now is a human virus, i.e. it most efficiently targets humans.

That won't happen in a colony of bats in a cave. That kind of evolution can only occur in a population of humans.

Nonsense. Just because it doesn't fit your intuition, doesn't mean it won't happen or can't happen. Any more that flat earthers claiming earth can't be an oblete spheroid (or "round") because their intuition is that it must be flat, makes that true.

https://www.cdc.gov/onehealth/basics/zo ... eases.html

Zoonotic diseases are very common, both in the United States and around the world. Scientists estimate that more than 6 out of every 10 known infectious diseases in people can be spread from animals, and 3 out of every 4 new or emerging infectious diseases in people come from animals.

[REAL Green]

“Shocking New AP Report Shows WHO Actively Covered Up For China's Lies”
https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/ ... hinas-lies

"On Tuesday, as the US heals from a long weekend of violence and unrest, the AP has published a new report based on the details of a never-before-reported internal call where WHO higher-ups discussed what to do about China's obstinance, fearing a re-run of SARS. The recording reveals that Beijing didn't immediately cooperate with the WHO, as the WHO had previously claimed, but instead dragged its feet, much to the consternation of several top officials at the UN-linked NGO. Not only did the CCP deliberately suppress critical info about the outbreak in Wuhan (identities and other patient-related data), but Beijing also withheld a map of the virus's genome for roughly a week after researchers finished mapping it, among other transgressions (Remember when the WHO praised China's decision to swiftly map and share the virus genome as unassailable evidence that Beijing cares about accountability?) When China finally released the information to the WHO, they apparently only did so because a team of Chinese researchers had shared the information with another third party…After all, while we might not possess any direct evidence that the novel coronavirus leaked from a biolab in Wuhan, it's now become abundantly cleared that Beijing lied, and people died, and the WHO failed in its mission to safeguard the public health of the most vulnerable nations."

[REAL Green]

“The Case Is Building That COVID-19 Had a Lab Origin”
https://www.independentsciencenews.org/ ... ab-origin/

“The COVID-19 Wuhan lab escape thesis Led by researcher Zheng-Li Shi, WIV scientists have also published experiments in which live bat coronaviruses were introduced into human cells (Hu et al., 2017). Moreover, according to an April 14 article in the Washington Post, US Embassy staff visited the WIV in 2018 and “had grave safety concerns” about biosecurity there. The WIV is just eight miles from the Huanan live animal market that was initially thought to be the site of origin of the COVID-19 pandemic. Wuhan is also home to a lab called the Wuhan Centers for Disease Prevention and Control (WCDPC). It is a BSL-2 lab that is just 250 metres away from the Huanan market. Bat coronaviruses have in the past been kept at the Wuhan WCDPC lab. Thus the lab escape theory is that researchers from one or both of these labs may have picked up a Sars-CoV-2-like bat coronavirus on one of their many collecting (aka ‘”virus surveillance”) trips. Or, alternatively, a virus they were studying, passaging, engineering, or otherwise manipulating, escaped…“no natural virus matching to COVID-19 has been found in nature despite an intensive search to find its origins.” That is to say, the idea of an animal intermediate is speculation. Indeed, no credible viral or animal host intermediaries, either in the form of a confirmed animal host or a plausible virus intermediate, has to-date emerged to explain the natural zoonotic transfer of Sars-CoV-2 to humans (e.g. Zhan et al., 2020)…“Take a bat coronavirus that is not infectious to humans, and force its selection by culturing it with cells that express human ACE2 receptor…which would have the effect of increasing the strength of its binding to human ACE2, and inevitably reducing the strength of its binding to bat ACE2. Viruses in prolonged culture will also develop other random mutations that do not affect its function. The result of these experiments is a virus that is highly virulent in humans but is sufficiently different that it no longer resembles the original bat virus. Because the mutations are acquired randomly by selection there is no signature of a human gene jockey, but this is clearly a virus still created by human intervention.” In other words, Petrovsky believes that current experimental methods could have led to an altered virus that escaped…“The idea that it was just a totally natural occurrence is circumstantial. The evidence it leaked from a lab is circumstantial. Right now, the ledger on the side of it leaking from the lab is packed with bullet points and there’s almost nothing on the other side.”…Meticulous lab records plus staff health records and incident reports of accidents and near-accidents are all essential components (or should be) of BSL work. Their main purpose is to enable the tracking of actual incidents. Much speculation could be ended with the public release of that information. But the WIV has not provided it. This is puzzling since the Chinese government has a very strong incentive to produce those records. Complete transparency would potentially dispel the gales of blame coming its way; especially on the question of whether Sars-CoV-2 has an engineered or passaged origin. Given the simplicity and utility of this step this lack of transparency suggests that there is something to hide. If so, it must be important. But then the question is: What?”

[jedrider]

I posted on the Coronavirus thread how Chinese officials, it seems, knew about this virus on November 1st, 2019. A laboratory origin would not surprise me in the least.

Of course, Trump had fired CDC scientists stationed in China who could have pre-warned us about this Coronavirus.

Two dictatorial regimes, and we're caught in the middle.