Peak Oil News and Message Boards

Yes, nice points Brian. I have been pretty outspoken on these threads against Capitalism. To me Capitalism is the economic system that emphasizes growth and greed. This was tenable throughout our entire history as the planet and circumstances allowed it.

However we are now in the era of contraction. Our population has grown too large and so we are both out of balance with what the plane can provide for all of us and are incrementally reducing the capacity of the planet to sustain us. So some version of your second option of a collective with shared core values of sharing, responsibility to one another and frugality must take precedence in this new era. Or else our species faces total catastrophe. I would be interested in hearing your viewpoint

What happens if I do not wish to collectivize with you? Gulag or the bullet?

Cog,

Answering your post on the previous page.....

Our wealth is spread out in a number of ways. Yes some is in 401k investments, but even that has been moved away from stocks. We have our Philadelphia brownstone with 4 apartments, and now finally morgage free. Then we have a piece of raw land, 168 acres in Cape Breton, and a nice little cabin in Newfoundland. Finally we have our two boats. Then there is some (very small) pension income and railroad retirement (think social security). And we have some savings.

I count us as a very lucky couple considering we are both divorced and only started out on this journey in our late thirties. In fact the totality of the assets are most likely MUCH less than they sound. Cabins, land, boats in total cost under $200k, far less than many typical houses. Nothing fancy here, tons of sweat equity, all paid for.

So, yes, we have some stock market exposure. A crash would hurt us, it would not take us out. The single biggest asset we have is our flexibility. We are mobile and have established ourselves in dispersed locations. Some through luck, some through planning.

We have places to go, places to hide, ways to get there even after a total market collapse. We value flexibility and have invested in it. In the meantime we are enjoying our retirement practicing our getaway.

Brian,

Aldous Huxley foresaw where we are going back in 1932 and wrote Brave New World. It is seen as a disutopian novel. Yet as I now read it I wonder if he was not trying to point out a better future for us.

Yes there is much to hate in the world he describes, but the worst of it is already with us. The up side of the planned economy is sustainability. Folks are suited to their roles and generally find some modicum of happiness. There are no world wars, no famines, no genocide, no global warming.

We could do worse. At this rate we will do worse.

And no freedom.

Cog wrote:And no freedom.

Freedom in a diminished and ravaged world is pointless !

onlooker wrote:

Cog wrote:And no freedom.

Freedom in a diminished and ravaged world is pointless !

That is when it makes the most sense of all.

Cog

Have you read Brave New World?

Have you read Amusing Ourselves to Death?

I ask before I launch into a tiresome explanation.

+1 Cogster. That's when people find out what it's really all about. The end of illusion is the end of control. Like you I'm offended by the idea some bunch of cronies is ever going to know what's better for me than me. The harder they try, the more likely i end up instead of ignoring, fighting them. I'm not someone anyone should pick fights with. There's millions more who think like us, we will sort ourselves out just fine when the time comes. F#ck big brother.

Newfie, our posts went up within seconds of each other & neither of us quoted. I don't think either Cog or me are ignorant of the angle you are coming from at all. Without writing an essay, i think you know what I'm getting at also. Our solution is the Phoenix & ashes, yours is Soilent Green.

vtsnowedin wrote:
Really Ralfy? When I'm talking about 57 chevy assembly lines being over taken by robots and day care you want to throw in statistics for Zimbabwe?

Zimbabwe? That's an ave. for most people.

And this thread is not limited to what happens in the U.S.

SeaGypsy wrote:Newfie, our posts went up within seconds of each other & neither of us quoted. I don't think either Cog or me are ignorant of the angle you are coming from at all. Without writing an essay, i think you know what I'm getting at also. Our solution is the Phoenix & ashes, yours is Soilent Green.

Yep could not have said it better. Better it all burns to the ground than live in that sterile and planned world that only a Dr Mengele could enjoy.

Yeah Newfie I've read Brave New World but not the other one you mentioned. I do not hold life so dear that I would trade the yolk of slavery just to eke out another day of living. If nature or resource limits puts a constraint on me and you call that a type of slavery, I'll happy concede that. But I won't tolerate another human doing forcing me into it.

ralfy wrote:

vtsnowedin wrote:
Really Ralfy? When I'm talking about 57 chevy assembly lines being over taken by robots and day care you want to throw in statistics for Zimbabwe?

Zimbabwe? That's an ave. for most people.

And this thread is not limited to what happens in the U.S.

Well many of those "average" people are living in socialist countries controlled by dictators. That is the main cause of their poverty.
I prefer to focus on things here in the USA and leave the rest of the world to solve their own problems, or not.

It is not about a totalitarian forced system. It is about a common set of values that everyone holds up as worthy and necessary for EVERYONE. As Sea said There's millions more who think like us". And so many now think Capitalism and Democracy are generally good for humans. So, in the Future in this degraded less bountiful planet people will view frugality and sharing as good and selfishness and greed as bad. I believe a synchronization can be attained between the interests of the individual and society at large

vtsnowedin wrote:... Well many of those "average" people are living in socialist countries controlled by dictators. That is the main cause of their poverty.
I prefer to focus on things here in the USA and leave the rest of the world to solve their own problems, or not.

Yes. We'll make all of our underwear, shoes, socks, computer parts, car parts, and...., and .....; all by ourselves. Enough for 320 million of us.

SeaGypsy wrote:Newfie, our posts went up within seconds of each other & neither of us quoted. I don't think either Cog or me are ignorant of the angle you are coming from at all. Without writing an essay, i think you know what I'm getting at also. Our solution is the Phoenix & ashes, yours is Soilent Green.

Sea,

Be quite clear I have NO solution. I see problems and cunumdrums and try to talk about them, try to understand them. But I see no solution. I see lots more problems and lots less freedom. In many, many ways most of us here want similar things, but it’s just so damn hard to come to grips with the reality and then to express it clearly.

GHung wrote:

vtsnowedin wrote:... Well many of those "average" people are living in socialist countries controlled by dictators. That is the main cause of their poverty.
I prefer to focus on things here in the USA and leave the rest of the world to solve their own problems, or not.

Yes. We'll make all of our underwear, shoes, socks, computer parts, car parts, and...., and .....; all by ourselves. Enough for 320 million of us.

I'm not an isolationist but the USA certainly could go it alone if we chose to.

Onlooker, the vision you are talking about isn't going to happen, unless humanity completely transitions, as a whole, simultaneously. There is no precedent for that & the premise is based on boundless resources- so it doesn't make sense. Whether it's VT's version, some kind of hyper nationalism, or localism, tribalism, whatever- if it doesn't fit with human nature somehow it's barely worth discussing. Globalism is based on cheap energy primarily, without which it will fail without the slightest doubt. When it does, the interconnect you perceive as the basis of Utopia vanishes. As it is now we get very little news from- most of Africa, Latin America, the South Pacific, a great swathe of Central Asia, & that's with every 3rd person having a smartphone, air travel, satellite coms etc etc. When the tools of interconnectedness go down, so does the empire state.

I can only say that in the future groups that are more cooperative and in sync will probably be more adaptive than those who are not over the long term.

SeaGypsy wrote: There is no precedent for that & the premise is based on boundless resources- so it doesn't make sense. Whether it's VT's version, some kind of hyper nationalism, or localism, tribalism, whatever- if it doesn't fit with human nature somehow it's barely worth discussing. Globalism is based on cheap energy primarily, without which it will fail without the slightest doubt.

While cheap energy has been the norm for about a century I don't think it is the base of Globalism. As energy gets scarcer and higher in price the ability to move goods from a high energy area of the globe to an area with less energy resources will provide those that can move the resources with profit opportunities.