Peak Oil News and Message Boards

GHung wrote:Better at what? There is a number of metrics where it's clear that Americans under the American style of capitalism aren't better off and happier than people in some of the less capitalist countries .

I have to doubt that is true if you factor out all the recent immigrants both legal and illegal that are skewing the metrics.

Capitalism promotes maximum profits, extraction and consumption, maximizes waste streams, but doesn't account for most of those waste streams. While other economic systems do much the same, capitalism is, as KJ said above, the very best, consequences be damned. How can any thinking person of good character be supportive of that?

The time of ignoring those consequences for the sake of maximum extraction is drawing to a close. A lot of uninvited forcing will be involved.

A lot of uninvited forcing will be involved.-----
Which is a euphemism for stuff like death, war, famine and pestilence
You know the 4 horseman of the apocalypse

GHung wrote:Capitalism promotes maximum profits, extraction and consumption, maximizes waste streams, but doesn't account for most of those waste streams. While other economic systems do much the same, capitalism is, as KJ said above, the very best, consequences be damned. How can any thinking person of good character be supportive of that?

The time of ignoring those consequences for the sake of maximum extraction is drawing to a close. A lot of uninvited forcing will be involved.

Actually Capitalism promotes minmized waste streams. After all Gasoline was a waste product of Kerosene production until Benze chose it as the fuel for his first successful horseless carriage. The gunk that is left in the bottom of the bath when copper castings are refined via electricity was considered waste until someone figured out that refining the gunk produced silver and sometimes gold and platinum too. Heck even the CO2 waste of fossil fuel burning has uses as plant greenhouse fertilizer and as feedstock for some chemical processes.

All waste streams are just things nobody has figured out how to refine or recycle yet. Someday even those giant landfills made by cities like Phoenix will be recycled back into useful things, just not right now.

The problem with all of you and your opinions about Capitalism is the assignment of blame. I personally do not care whether you are a devotee of Capitalism or a deluded little pinko communist. But I have to point out that 10,000 years ago when Stone Age humans invented fishing, trade caravans, prostitution, religion, and all manner of other things, all we were really doing is overlaying ape instincts with a thin veneer of cultural traditions. "Capitalism" is not a system, nobody invented it, the most anybody ever did before the science we call Anthropology was invented, was observe and describe natural human behavior - with the important distinction that the nature of mankind as a primate was not understood.

Do you get it yet? There is nobody in charge of the economy, no person or group, no rules that apply universally, no "system" exists, there is nothing there for you to rant and rave against. A lot of you appear to be reacting to my disclosure that I have a net worth of over $1M. Me and the wife togather, adding in the property on Nantucket, are now worth over $2M. We acquired this property and money by working, saving, and playing by the unwritten rules of Capitalism. We have created a trust and will almost certainly designate my daughter as the new trustee, and she will have to pick one of her kids to succeed her as trustee. The idea will be that there will be at least two family vacation homesteads in Wisconsin and Nantucket, and our descendants will still have to earn a living, but will have a place to go and recreate free of charge.

Meanwhile, lest you think I am some rich flaming rectuum, I just spent two weeks on the island picking up trash, cutting brush, clearing pine needles from rain gutters, cleaning 20+ years of household clutter (36 large trash bags) and arranging for vehicle repairs and contractors to correct some of the obvious major problems with the place. I also arranged for a couple of tons of crushed scallop shells to be dumped on the unpaved driveway, and I'm glad I won't be there to smell the stench while it's fresh. The estate won't be closed until July 2018, and we will make any home improvements after that. Meanwhile, we have decided that if possible, we will park about half of the cash for our San Jose home sale in a few acres of beachfront property on Lake Michigan, and eventually build a superefficient house there.

Your life is what YOU make of it. The things you do and the decisions you make are important, and a lot of them will impact the remainder of your existence on the planet. I have led a typical American lifestyle as have most of you. I choose to live the remainder of my life in a low impact manner, using as little external energy as possible, and conserving FF's and replacing them with renewables. I intend to enjoy the remainder of my life, and to enrich the lives of my grandkids with fond memories of Grandma and Grandpa.

Understand one thing before you go. The problems you are railing against are not due to Capitalism. There exists at this time on this planet a large overshoot population of humans, plus their animal and plant food species. The ecology of our world is suffering greatly due to the thousands of ways that this overshoot population impacts a diverse and balanced ecology. I personally believe that mankind will overcome and correct the various imbalances with - wait for it - more technology, both on this planet and in space.

If there were less than a billion humans, there would be a lot less stress, and my opinion is that most of you (excepting those whose parents abused them by instilling a reverence for Marxism) would be content and would be feathering your own nests as I am starting to do. Quit wasting your precious time railing against a system that is not even a system, rather a simple label for natural ape behaviors.

KJ said; "'Capitalism' is not a system..... blah, blah, blah...."

But wait! Up-thread you said; "That is what Capitalism is, a system that has brought more prosperity and wealth to more people than any other...."

and....

"There is nothing inherently fair about any other economic system you care to name, either. There simply are no other systems anywhere in the World that work at more than a basic level.".....

.....referring to capitalism as a system. Color me thinking you need treatment for dementia, or maybe there's more than one KJ? Quite the rant though

Enjoy your wife's inheritance.

First off, I am happy really for you Kaiser that you and your family are doing well economically and your hard work has paid off. Second, most of us here have concurred that we are greatly overpopulated and that this is a fundamental reason that our Environments are becoming less capable of sustaining all of us and that a much reduces population would be a good thing.

As for why I "rail" against Capitalism. Well it comes down to the fact that I think we can do better than this. We do not have to be the Kudzu Apes. Yes, we have inbred primate instincts but we have evolved in more complex and diverse ways via culture and such to simply peg us as some sort of smart primate. We are smart but we are also enlightened in some ways that animals are not and cannot be. We have Science, Arts, Philosophy, Love poetry, charitable foundations etc etc.
What I am trying to say is we have the capacity to be much more charitable, humane, compassionate, empathetic and caring towards each other. We also can form an Ethos based around these virtuous traits and a respect and veneration for that which sustains us meaning Mother Earth.

But we cannot and will not as long as we our behavior is guided by an Economic set of rules and goals that emphasize greed over need, selfishness over sharing, etc etc. You seem to think we cannot ever create anything other than Capitalism because it is build into our nature. I am saying our Nature is much more mult-faceted and we can and must be geared towards more harmony with each other and with Nature.

On a side note Primates have been discovered to exhibit these more kinder gentler traits. See work of Jane Goodall

Onlooker, nobody taught me to be greedy or not to care about others, or not to share or anything else. My parents taught me to be charitable, care for others, and to share everything with my five siblings.

Which has nothing whatsoever to do with our discussion of Capitalism. It is not until one is interacting with strangers, perhaps even people one will never meet over a network, that what you call "rules" comes into play.

BTW, I never said that primate instincts cannot be overcome. In this very thread, you will find my postings where I said on more than one occasion that a university level education and a considerable personal effort over a period of years will overcome primate instincts. You and I have put in the considerable investment of time and money and we both understand what we are talking about, as would another few million people on a planet of 7.5+ billions.

WE are simply not the problem. Also note that even if you could convice all of us capable of understanding the finer points of the correctness of your analysis, you are missing the bigger picture. Of those 7.5+ billion other humans, most are involved in the hardscrabble struggle for existence, to find clean water, food, shelter, and clothing. In what little spare time they have, they are NOT reading about economics. They are too damned busy having sex and reproducing as fast as possible, because that is the proven primate path to survival, to make the ape troop as numerous and powerful as possible, to displace the nearby ape troops, and eat them.

Because that is how apes behave. Note also that you can explain those kindler/gentler traits to your fellow humans as they chow down:

With the recent revelations about dominant ie. rich and powerful, males forcing themselves on young breeding age females it becomes apparent that education and culture have made little inroads in our apelike instinctive behaviors.

The irony is that that public education system was set up by industrialists.

ralfy wrote:The irony is that that public education system was set up by industrialists.

I see the present education system as an evolution from the New England style one room school house system put in place by Jeffersonian subsistence farmers. The industrialists just took it to a higher level to provide the educated work force they needed. Unfortunately today robots are removing the need for masses of skilled workers. How much can we afford to spend on educating people that have no job prospect in front of them?

vtsnowedin wrote: I see the present education system as an evolution from the New England style one room school house system put in place by Jeffersonian subsistence farmers. The industrialists just took it to a higher level to provide the educated work force they needed. Unfortunately today robots are removing the need for masses of skilled workers. How much can we afford to spend on educating people that have no job prospect in front of them?

It may have been more than just a higher level. The premise is that the public education system followed the Prussian model:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prussian_ ... ted_States

Such that the system eventually followed what was seen in industries and even in the military, i.e., hierarchies, credentials, and quantification of performance. In short, factory model schools:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Factory_model_school

which works very well with capitalist systems.

As for robots, not only do they need the opposite of peak oil and generally limits to growth, they also reveal more internal flaws concerning capitalist systems. In this case, it's not so much justifying the need for spending more on education for consumers with no job prospects but who will be buying goods produced by robots.

ralfy wrote:
As for robots, not only do they need the opposite of peak oil and generally limits to growth, they also reveal more internal flaws concerning capitalist systems. In this case, it's not so much justifying the need for spending more on education for consumers with no job prospects but who will be buying goods produced by robots.

Perhaps we will find a way to tax each robot so it supports a displaced worker and his family.

While I thought this site had met its doom I watched some recent documentaries on AI/robotics. I really think doomers should stay informed about what's going on in this realm because the world simply is not the same as it was when the PeakOil meme was in its heyday. Rather than clinging to the narrative of technology failing and powerdown being our doom you're gonna have to factor in the disruption of AI/robotics on society.

I think the biggest weak-spot in the analysis here is in technology as most here are retirement-age (or near retirement-age) ex-hippie types who haven't kept up on technology and have luddite tendencies.
Therefore a lot of what passes for predictions here are just wishful thinking on the part of those with large axes to grind against BAU.

The AI Race
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gLeuCj0ZFo4

Rise of the Robots 1 & 2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AiRCX9t4Qrg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zR6-bzi6a_k

vtsnowedin wrote: Perhaps we will find a way to tax each robot so it supports a displaced worker and his family.

But won't that tax be passed on to the consumer, who also happens to be the displaced worker?

ralfy wrote:

vtsnowedin wrote: Perhaps we will find a way to tax each robot so it supports a displaced worker and his family.

But won't that tax be passed on to the consumer, who also happens to be the displaced worker?

Yes just like the assembly line workers wages and taxes were passed on in the value of a '57 chevy only the displaced worker won't have to commute to work or purchase day care for his children so the support level needed will be less.

The three laws:

1.A robot may not injure a human being or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm.
2.A robot must obey the orders given it by human beings except where such orders would conflict with the First Law.
3.A robot must protect its own existence as long as such protection does not conflict with the First or Second Laws.

An article from our front page.

Much to ponder here.

http://cassandralegacy.blogspot.com/201 ... y.html?m=1

From your link Newfie:

I can be rich only if you are poor; wealth is a relation: there has to be poverty in order to have wealth.

The man is either an idiot or a communist to believe such a thing. Typical progressive trash. I know this is a common thought process of those who are jealous of other's wealth and seek to destroy it by confiscation, but its not true now and never has been. A wealth redistributionist is a criminal, no better than a mugger except he has government do that which he won't do himself. No need to fancy it up. That is what they do.