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Newfie wrote:As always with these threads part of the problem is the definition of the time frame.

That is why I was ambiguous about the time frame and left it an open question. This adds to the diversity of the discussion. Also, Sea actually asked a profound question asking who is the we. It may seem to others as straight forward in that I meant humanity overall. However, us on this site having a bit more knowledge about these subjects than your average person, are aware that collapse will not be uniform either in time or space and so affect certain groups more acutely at different times than others groups.

So, it is a matter of degrees. If you answered that you foresee a drastic descent of civilization then you probably envision this descent as pretty universal. Baha, is also trying to parse time frames ie. within 20 years and post 20 years. Again, it does not involve any wrong answers or right ones. It is a matter of how each of us see all this unfolding chronologically. Personally, having chosen a drastic die off and descent of civilization. I, personally believe that it will probably happen no later than 2050. I believe this because of the cumulative array of problems and challenges that together in my estimation pose an unsolvable amalgam to avoid this fate. In particular, I believe CC will truly have calamitous consequences in the next few decades. Sorry, but that is just my opinion from all the reading and my interpretation.

.....aware that collapse will not be uniform either in time or space and so affect certain groups more acutely at different times than others groups.

... and those groups that have been more acutely affected aren't going to just sit around twiddling their thumbs and watch their part of civilization collapse. Indeed, the so-called Arab Spring, ISIL, Taliban, etc., are likely precursors to what can be expected as more fortunate groups circle their civilizational wagons to try and maintain order and their lifestyles. This tells me this process is already underway as we see wealthier nations moving towards more nationalist policies. Brexit, Trumpism, populist/nationalist groups in the EU, anti-immigration movements....

Haves and have-nots, as we run out of planet to exploit, will be at each other, armed with the most devastating weapons ever known; environment, climate, and progress be damned. Globalism ===> Regionalism ===> Isolationism ===> Civil wars ===> Tribalism ===> ????

So many of these threads are navel gazing. The very fact that we discuss over and over again when we think corrections come and how severe they will be is just an indication of how fat and secure we are at the moment. And I would dare say also how bored we are because if our days would be filled with hard work and toil in order to survive a thread like this would never be created and never discussed.

Totally accurate Ghung. In a world of greater and greater disequilibrium of resources vis-à-vis population you can only logically expect to see clashes for limited resources. The hope if any exists is that despite history not shedding a favorable light upon our behavior throughout the ages in these circumstances, we will have evolved enough to recognize that suffrage and cooperation ultimately must exist between each other as this will ultimately be most beneficial to everyone involved.

I too am not necessarily optimistic but neither am I hopelessly pessimistic. To me it is an open question as to how all this ultimately unravels. As Ibon stated from an informed perspective, as primates we can manifest aggression and selfishness but also empathy and cooperation.

Ibon wrote:So many of these threads are navel gazing. The very fact that we discuss over and over again when we think corrections come and how severe they will be is just an indication of how fat and secure we are at the moment. And I would dare say also how bored we are because if our days would be filled with hard work and toil in order to survive a thread like this would never be created and never discussed.

My last comment was a case of history-gazing, not "navel gazing". In general, this is how societies have reacted in the past, and our exponentially higher ability to destroy each other and our environment is a factor that cannot be ignored.

As for "...our days would be filled with hard work and toil in order to survive...", I'm off through the snow to check the spring where our water comes from to see if things have frozen up down there, and then will get more firewood in to heat our humble shelter. After that, I'm going to survey the damage our greenhouse suffered from heavy snowfall and see if I can salvage the cabbage and peas that were growing there. After that, I should still have a little time for some navel-gazing.

Not sure what the rest of you are doing......

GHung wrote:[ I'm off through the snow to check the spring where our water comes from to see if things have frozen up down there, and then will get more firewood in to heat our humble shelter. After that, I'm going to survey the damage our greenhouse suffered from heavy snowfall and see if I can salvage the cabbage and peas that were growing there. After that, I should still have a little time for some navel-gazing.

Not sure what the rest of you are doing......

That's funny Ghung. This evening our water ran out at our lodge here where we have 8 guests at the moment. Checked the line from the lodge to the cistern. OK. The 6000 liter cistern though was empty. Got a flashlight and hiked half a kilometer through the forest at night to get up to the source at the base of Mount Totumas. The intake, a five gallon bucket laying on its side with a 1 inch pipe was clogged. First time that happened in 5 years.

This is kind of what I meant actually, so busy here now that the high season has begun, harnessed morning to night, our fate as humanity seems less pressing and even less interesting when fully engaged.

I return to the claim that boredom is what makes us drone on and on about these topics.

Too much idle time.

Heaven help us all

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iXGtQdSc4g

Dohboi, When the 7.5 billion Kudzu Apes fall will heaven have a place for them all?

The die-off will cause the carrying capacity of heaven to be exceeded.

Ibon wrote:Dohboi, When the 7.5 billion Kudzu Apes fall will heaven have a place for them all?

The die-off will cause the carrying capacity of heaven to be exceeded.

... but the Well of Souls, now empty, will be replenished

GHung wrote:

Ibon wrote:Dohboi, When the 7.5 billion Kudzu Apes fall will heaven have a place for them all?

The die-off will cause the carrying capacity of heaven to be exceeded.

... but the Well of Souls, now empty, will be replenished

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Well_of_Souls
And related to this, is the Guf
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guf
Just a little detour for those who might be curious. I include it because I remember watching a movie with Demi Moore, "The Seventh Sign", that is related to all this.

onlooker wrote:

GHung wrote:

Ibon wrote:Dohboi, When the 7.5 billion Kudzu Apes fall will heaven have a place for them all?

The die-off will cause the carrying capacity of heaven to be exceeded.

... but the Well of Souls, now empty, will be replenished

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Well_of_Souls
And related to this, is the Guf
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guf
Just a little detour for those who might be curious. I include it because I remember watching a movie with Demi Moore, "The Seventh Sign", that is related to all this.

well, "gathering" all the sparks for the messiah? how do you suppose this happens? I have a pretty good idea.

this goes back to my previous post.

There is a real reason why Leibniz was crucified by Voltaire and Newton.

roccman wrote:

onlooker wrote:

GHung wrote:

Ibon wrote:Dohboi, When the 7.5 billion Kudzu Apes fall will heaven have a place for them all?

The die-off will cause the carrying capacity of heaven to be exceeded.

... but the Well of Souls, now empty, will be replenished

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Well_of_Souls
And related to this, is the Guf
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guf
Just a little detour for those who might be curious. I include it because I remember watching a movie with Demi Moore, "The Seventh Sign", that is related to all this.

well, "gathering" all the sparks for the messiah? how do you suppose this happens? I have a pretty good idea.

this goes back to my previous post.

There is a real reason why Leibniz was crucified by Voltaire and Newton.

Been a long time Roc. How did hiding out in the woods and desert do, after you fled the world because of doom back in 2008? Did you only spend 9 years in the wilderness (compared to say, Moses' 40) before you realized that not only didn't the world end, but the grid in Arizona is still up and running and a-okay? Do you miss the bad old days?

AdamB wrote:
Been a long time Roc. How did hiding out in the woods and desert do, after you fled the world because of doom back in 2008? Did you only spend 9 years in the wilderness (compared to say, Moses' 40) before you realized that not only didn't the world end, but the grid in Arizona is still up and running and a-okay? Do you miss the bad old days?

Hey Adam, that was in my grasshopper days!! Grid failure, bombs, resource depletion and material boogeyman are not really my focus now and haven't been for the last 5 years. Bigger fish to catch I suppose. There is something underfoot that is a bit more nefarious than simple climate change or over populating the planet. It centers around hive behavior, beliefs and the "gathering" of sparks. If I didn't think I was chucking pearls at swine, I would spend this time diving into it with you. Previous recent posts get at what I am studying now. Curious, for you to actually spend time clobbering out a 2nd grade post, "nanny nanny doo doo stick your head in poo poo" for me! Lol, thanks! Have a groovy day adamantite (material used to chain something to something else, in "myth"-spoiler alert, the chain broke).