Peak Oil News and Message Boards

Shaved Monkey wrote:Australias conservative party has gone full reversal on their austerity trickle down dreams ,its full on "socialism" now
Double the dole for the unemployed, wage subsidies to keep the employed employed, free child care and 2 lots of $750 hand outs for everyone on benefits,and no evictions for tenants for 6 months.
Free 4 star hotels for anyone doing a 14 day lock down after coming back from OS

Sort of is reality now, isn't it? The US is going to have to wake up for this. It will take some kicking and screaming, but that will be short lived this time around. Trump will go back and forth day-by-day in a feedback loop with the media, but the results will be the same.

evilgenius wrote:I think OP is right to question the state of trickle down economics. I just saw a headline stating that so and so, a Senator, was going to try and talk Trump out of direct payments to citizens. The amount of those payments, when all sorts of self-employed people need them, has been talked down as well. I think that in the first few days of discussion I saw an amount as high as $3,000 tossed around. Now, it has gone down to around $1,000...

The Problem is with the people.

If I need 1000 USD (Euro) I just take it from my cash reserve.
If I need 3000 Euro I just take that amount.
If I Need 30.000 Euro I take it from my bank account.

I have worked for ca. 12 years now, having 30.000 Euro of savements is just putting away 200 Euro per month (at zero interest)

A 1200 USD check is a Symbol, but imho it will have very little effect and will just turn private dept into public dept.
(it's also a symbol for a very outdated system, who in hell pays with paper checks in the 21st century anyway? That's like using a telegraph to send a message)

What is needed to go on is unemployment payment and health care.

If you save on health care people will avoid going to the doctor when they just suffer from mild symptoms and so they will infect many others. This will cost much more in the end.

What's really needed is Universal basic income from a government that can issue its own debt free currency, no banksters skimming interest at each and every opportunity. With debt free money on government is in debt to the banks and can tax the money out of the system when it reaches the elite.
If the money is pumped in at the bottom, it does not then need to "trickle down".

With UBI only providing sufficient money for the absolute basics of life, there is still the incentive to work and earn extra, but no stigma of not working.

dolanbaker wrote: but no stigma of not working.

What do you mean? If you don't work, obviously somebody else has to work for you and feed and cloth you.
I can see that this could make some people upset.

mousepad wrote:

dolanbaker wrote: but no stigma of not working.

What do you mean? If you don't work, obviously somebody else has to work for you and feed and cloth you.
I can see that this could make some people upset.

You don't understand how the modern world works, these days much of the work is done by machines - mostly producing "consumer grade" stuff that is designed to function for a short time and then be thrown away. There are far more people than there are meaningful jobs.

Money should be a lubricant for the economy, not a store of wealth and a source of power and control as many in the financial & banking world abuse it today.

As I said UBI provides the basic income that prevents homelessness, nakedness and hunger, if you want to improve you get a job! The advantage of UBI is that it is not taken away when you start to earn.

dolanbaker wrote:

mousepad wrote:

dolanbaker wrote: but no stigma of not working.

What do you mean? If you don't work, obviously somebody else has to work for you and feed and cloth you.
I can see that this could make some people upset.

You don't understand how the modern world works, these days much of the work is done by machines - mostly producing "consumer grade" stuff that is designed to function for a short time and then be thrown away. There are far more people than there are meaningful jobs.

Money should be a lubricant for the economy, not a store of wealth and a source of power and control as many in the financial & banking world abuse it today.

As I said UBI provides the basic income that prevents homelessness, nakedness and hunger, if you want to improve you get a job! The advantage of UBI is that it is not taken away when you start to earn.

I know what you're saying and I agree with most of it. But I think the stigma of "mooching" won't disappear with this system.

Even if your basic needs are covered, most will feel like a failure without a job.

asg70 wrote:Even if your basic needs are covered, most will feel like a failure without a job.

A properly organized and limited UBI has merit. An affluent nation should provide for the people. On a deeper level the reality is all people should be working more and playing less. The work I speak of is growing and making stuff and home economics of providing the basics of life. This abstract message is being demonstrated through a way of life increasingly unstable and lacking cohesiveness. This pandemic is a clear reason to seek more resilience and sustainability. Many people are trapped unable to do anything or don’t care but there are many people who can live differently. If more people chose a path of simplicity and hard work many locations would be more fortified for an increasingly difficult life ahead. So, we can talk about UBI on the national level but at the local and individual level the talk needs to be how do I reject the social narrative of good times and comfort. There is nothing wrong with good times and comfort just not the type advertised by the mainstream today. That narrative is a fraud and a prison of empty wants.

REAL Green wrote:... all people should be working more and playing less. The work I speak of is growing and making stuff and home economics of providing the basics of life.

That kind of work is certainly very important and is fundamental to everything else, but IMHO its no more important than the kind of work other people do.

For instance, we're all seeing right now how important doctors and nurses are. Truckers are pretty darn important (at least until they get replaced with AI driverless trucks). Grocery store clerks and warehousemen are necessary for people to get groceries. The policeman keeps us safe (I still believe that). The bus driver and taxi driver and uber driver and airplane pilot get us from place to place.

Really....I think all work is important and valuable.

Personally, I'm a knowledge worker. While I do a lot of work with my hands in repairing my cabin and cutting wood on my woodlot and sometimes working in difficult and remote field locations for my science, I mainly work on research at a university and most of my friends also are professors and other intellectuals, and I think even intellectuals do important work......although probably not as immediately important as doctors and grocery clerks and truck drivers and farmers ---but even professors occasionally do useful work in teaching and molding the next generation.


IMHO just about everyone who works is useful and contributes to the economy and deserves fulsome praise.

Cheers!

Plantagenet wrote:

REAL Green wrote:... all people should be working more and playing less. The work I speak of is growing and making stuff and home economics of providing the basics of life.

For instance, we're all seeing right now how important doctors and nurses are. Truckers are pretty darn important (at least until they get replaced with AI driverless trucks). Grocery store clerks and warehousemen are necessary for people to get groceries. The policeman keeps us safe (I still believe that). The bus driver and taxi driver and uber driver and airplane pilot get us from place to place. Cheers!

Plant, you missed my point. I am talking about everyone meaning truckers and nurses. This is relative to the time people have also. It is a matter of an adapted way of life at the basic level. I feel it is coming over time as life becomes ever more difficult more people are turning to concrete action. Those who don't are the ones who will fall through the cracks. It is not so much prepping as living real.

REAL Green wrote: I feel it is coming over time as life becomes ever more difficult more people are turning to concrete action. Those who don't are the ones who will fall through the cracks. It is not so much prepping as living real.

I have a slightly different view.

Once we get past this virus pandemic thing, I think climate change is probably the most severe problem the world is facing now, and i don't see any turn to concrete action to deal with climate change.

The only kind of concrete action that will help with climate change is a global commitment to reduce greenhouse gas production, probably best done as a new UN climate change treaty, and I don't see it happening. The existing UN treaty----the Paris Accords----actually permits INCREASES in CO2 production, and so isn't helpful at all.

Cheers!

Personally, I'm a knowledge worker. I do a lot of work in remote field locations for my science. I mainly work on research at a university and most of my friends also are professors and other intellectuals. ~~Planty~~

Planty the self-described intellectual, but we already knew that thanks to his numerous intellectual contributions, particularly in the field of poli sci. &

mousepad wrote:
I know what you're saying and I agree with most of it. But I think the stigma of "mooching" won't disappear with this system.

For many of the "moochers" over here, the real issue is that as soon as they get a job they lose their welfare benefits, thus often ending up with less money than if they remained on the scratcher doing nothing. UBI avoids this by being given to all and anything they earn from part time employment will be in addition to the UBI not instead of UBI, this is the fundamental difference. The downside would the the likelihood of the minimum wage being lowered, but on the other hand it will not drop too much as no one would take the jobs.

So it enforces a bit of fairness for those who are only able to do the low paid unskilled work.

the globalist dream of importing workers on the cheap will need to be shut down for UBI to really be affective, otherwise employers will fly in cheap labour to do the work instead.

In fact that is happening right now in defiance of the COVID-19 restrictions.

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-52293061

Eastern European farm workers are being flown to the UK on charter flights to pick fruit and vegetable crops.

Air Charter Service has told the BBC that the first flight will land on Thursday in Stansted carrying 150 Romanian farm workers.

The firm told the BBC that the plane is the first of up to six set to operate between mid-April and the end of June.

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2020/04 ... t-covid19/

A large fruit growing company has been criticised for bringing fruitpickers from Bulgaria to Ireland during the Covid-19 pandemic.

Fianna Fáil TD for Dublin North West Paul McAuliffe said he thinks Keelings should not have brought fruitpickers from Bulgaria to Ireland to pick strawberries, describing it as "unnecessary" and that other options should have been looked at first.

Ireland will need 1,500 additional seasonal workers over the next two months to pick fruit, but there was controversy when footage of the workers arriving at Dublin Airport was posted on social media in recent days.

The arrival of this cheap labour is causing anger amongst many here.

REAL Green wrote:people should be working more and playing less.

Ruh roh. The dreaded "should". You aren't trying to hand down a lifestyle prescription are you? Hasn't it been proven that people resent being told how to live their lives (unless they are being told to live it as they already are)?

I'd say you've got your work cut out for you if you think you can push that boulder up the hill.

derhundistlos wrote:

Personally, I'm a knowledge worker. I do a lot of work in remote field locations for my science. I mainly work on research at a university and most of my friends also are professors and other intellectuals. ~~Planty~~

Planty the self-described intellectual, but we already knew that thanks to his numerous intellectual contributions, particularly in the field of poli sci. &

Yeah, he's an expert in cognitive dissonance with his heavy carbon footprint.

asg70 wrote:

REAL Green wrote:people should be working more and playing less.

Ruh roh. The dreaded "should". You aren't trying to hand down a lifestyle prescription are you? Hasn't it been proven that people resent being told how to live their lives (unless they are being told to live it as they already are)?

I'd say you've got your work cut out for you if you think you can push that boulder up the hill.

Yea, I am handing down a prescription and one I could do better at too. The word “should” here is just a warning for what the consequences are as the pandemic is making very evident. Think of all the people who invested in things of little worth currently. Think about investments in things and activities that could make a difference in times like these and you see my point. I could give a shit if people resent this. I say it to the few with open minds about how they can improve. I am not out to lead people or create some kind of cult. I am telling others who may care and which are few that there are great benefits to green prepping. This is true of people who can do it. I respect the fact there are people who would like to do green prepping and can't.

REAL Green wrote:The word “should” here is just a warning for what the consequences are as the pandemic is making very evident.

You're mistaken if you think the solution to coronavirus is a victory garden, though.

asg70 wrote:

REAL Green wrote:The word “should” here is just a warning for what the consequences are as the pandemic is making very evident.

You're mistaken if you think the solution to coronavirus is a victory garden, though.

I agree, growing things is not a solution but it likely is a natural result if we see food supply issues down the road. This means it is to one's advantage to get started. I am in a position much better than others to grow things and I can tell others from experience it is not much. It is something and in combination with other efforts can make a difference. It helps but green prepping alone will only do a little. The real difference is a community doing green prepping and a nation supporting it.

Its interesting in the US because trickle down obviously isnt working the people are in the streets demanding to go back to work or they will go broke.

In any other country, people would be demanding better healthcare and better safety nets to trickle down from the elites ,instead they are out there supporting the big orange elite and all his elite mates at the detriment of their own and the countries health.
Very strange indeed when witnessed as an outsider

Shaved Monkey wrote:Its interesting in the US because trickle down obviously isnt working the people are in the streets demanding to go back to work or they will go broke.

In any other country, people would be demanding better healthcare and better safety nets to trickle down from the elites ,instead they are out there supporting the big orange elite and all his elite mates at the detriment of their own and the countries health.
Very strange indeed when witnessed as an outsider

The "American way of life" is so ingrained into them after a lifetime of indoctrination that they simply don't see anything wrong with it, and as proven will protest for it to continue, despite the fact that they're actually demanding to continue to be wage slaves!

They should be out there demanding some form of UBI to cover them for the duration.