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Global demand for oil & gas will continue to INCREASE

General discussions of the systemic, societal and civilisational effects of depletion.

Global demand for oil & gas will continue to INCREASE

Unread postby Tom Kirkman » Fri 19 Jun 2020, 07:05:21

Global demand for oil & gas will continue to INCREASE in the coming decades, despite what the Mainstream Media and pandering far left politicians try to convince everyone.

Shrieking lies repeatedly does not make those lies true.

Orwellian MSM and politicians insist that up is down, feelings trump facts, war is peace, and rainbow unicorn farts (non-methane flowery smelling farts) will magically replace *eeeeeeevil* oil and gas and LNG. Poppycock and balderdash.

Tune out the mindless shrieking and hysteria, and think for yourself.

The civilized world runs on hydrocarbons. Political pie in the sky promises to kill off hydrocarbons in the near future are not grounded in reality.

======================

According to a 2019 report by BP, U.S. demand for natural gas is expected to rise around 24% by 2040. Even in the European Union, which aims to be carbon neutral by 2050, natural gas consumption is still expected to be about the same in 20 years as it is today.

Demand from industrial sources and from power stations will drive most of the growth in natural gas demand


‘Desperate’ To Get Natural Gas Out Of Appalachia, Pipeline Builders Face Long Battle Even After Supreme Court Victory
https://www.forbes.com/sites/scottcarpenter/2020/06/18/desperate-to-get-natural-gas-out-of-appalachia-pipeline-builders-face-long-battle-even-after-supreme-court-victory/#36ed2baa2488


======================================

(Yes, I'm a noob on this forum. Please do feel free to rebut my views. Your mileage may vary.)
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Re: Global demand for oil & gas will continue to INCREASE

Unread postby AdamB » Mon 22 Jun 2020, 00:37:03

Tom Kirkman wrote:Global demand for oil & gas will continue to INCREASE in the coming decades, despite what the Mainstream Media and pandering far left politicians try to convince everyone.


I'll take DNL-GV, Rystad, WoodMac and what CSIS was talking about a year ago now in terms of demand deceleration and peak then your particular unsubstantiated claim.

Tom Kirkman wrote:Shrieking lies repeatedly does not make those lies true.


Rystads information is neither shrieked, nor a lie. Generally referred to as pretty well sourced information. What might yours be?

Shrieking into a forum that has been discredited by reality at nearly every step of the way since peak oil was claimed, Thanksgiving Day 2005?

Tom Kirkman wrote:(Yes, I'm a noob on this forum. Please do feel free to rebut my views. Your mileage may vary.)


You haven't come close to demonstrating anything close to the analytic and data horsepower of Rystad. So you aren't just a noob to the forum, but apparently to resource economics in general. You really sure you want to pretend to know anything in this particular place?
Plant Thu 27 Jul 2023 "Personally I think the IEA is exactly right when they predict peak oil in the 2020s, especially because it matches my own predictions."

Plant Wed 11 Apr 2007 "I think Deffeyes might have nailed it, and we are just past the overall peak in oil production. (Thanksgiving 2005)"
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Re: Global demand for oil & gas will continue to INCREASE

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Mon 22 Jun 2020, 02:55:14

Tom Kirkman wrote:Global demand for oil & gas will continue to INCREASE in the coming decades, despite what the Mainstream Media and pandering far left politicians try to convince everyone.

Shrieking lies repeatedly does not make those lies true.

Couldn't agree more on the "shrieking lies repeatedly" comment. And we get plenty of that around here on a number of controversial topics, as you'll see if you hang out and read on enough topics.

For me, it's mostly not about the politics, but about data trends, technology, and science.

First, yes, it would appear that we are going to be using a TREMENDOUS amount of natural gas in coming decades, given its relative cost, how plentiful it apparently is, and that it's relatively clean, as far as hydrocarbons go.

Unless some unexpected substitute(s) are found, surely the global petrochemical demand will grow, probably massively, in coming decades, due to both global population growth, and tremendous additions to the "middle class", and the consumption that entails, globally.

However, I think it will take two to three decades, but I do think the global auto / light truck fleet, along with a lot of mass transit like buses, is going to convert to primarily BEV's, and most of the rest to HEV's or PHEV's. Climate change, politics (mostly young people unhappy with climate change), and the economics as batteries improve will drive that, IMO.

So I'm not so sure the demand for oil will necessarily grow beyond some point when BEV's hit some critical proportion of the global fleet of light vehicles.

Obviously, the data free far lefties proclaiming "the end of oil in a few years" are wrong. But I think assuming the demand for oil grows endlessly might be wrong too.

Note, I'm NOT claiming moving to EV's comes anywhere NEAR "fixing" climate change. And I think it's a cost issue primarily driving that trend over time, getting an assist from climate change politics.
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: Global demand for oil & gas will continue to INCREASE

Unread postby REAL Green » Mon 22 Jun 2020, 05:51:40

Outcast_Searcher wrote:[For me, it's mostly not about the politics, but about data trends, technology, and science.


It is about politics but an adapted view of what poltics is. It is the human narrative of the car culture of growth which means high mobility and delocalization from a global sourcing world. Politics is the human behavior that drives this human activity.

Outcast_Searcher wrote:First, yes, it would appear that we are going to be using a TREMENDOUS amount of natural gas in coming decades, given its relative cost, how plentiful it apparently is, and that it's relatively clean, as far as hydrocarbons go. Unless some unexpected substitute(s) are found, surely the global petrochemical demand will grow, probably massively, in coming decades, due to both global population growth, and tremendous additions to the "middle class", and the consumption that entails, globally. .


Maybe, but I doubt the words “TREMENDOUS” “MASSIVELY” fit. They are words that a techno optimist who is wealthy and can’t bare the though of creeping poverty thinks. The reality is we are likely in the neighborhood of decline and potential collpase. Maybe not immediately but closer than anyone cares to imagine. So much honest science points to a decline process and pseudoscience of human behavior of economic thought sees a system unable to accomodate decline.

Outcast_Searcher wrote:However, I think it will take two to three decades, but I do think the global auto / light truck fleet, along with a lot of mass transit like buses, is going to convert to primarily BEV's, and most of the rest to HEV's or PHEV's. Climate change, politics (mostly young people unhappy with climate change), and the economics as batteries improve will drive that, IMO. .


LOL, like that is going to save us. BEV are dirty and limited by resources too. They are a huge source of dirty carbon in their construction and delivery to the driving masses. You still need the economic engine to produce them. You can’t green that up or make that sustainable. This is the “Shrieking lies repeatedly does not make those lies true.” That is really more lies of denial than morally wrong lies. People can’t bare the thought of being poor.

Outcast_Searcher wrote:Note, I'm NOT claiming moving to EV's comes anywhere NEAR "fixing" climate change. And I think it's a cost issue primarily driving that trend over time, getting an assist from climate change politics.


Than you are taking the position we will power through climate change and you are ignoring limits of growth because words “TREMENDOUS” “MASSIVELY” are not limits to growth words. They are techno optimist words of a narrative of continued growth mainly because of enough resources to grow and with tech adapting growth to allow even more growth with substitution. This is just habituation to growth that most people default to when the realities of a growth ceiling present themselves. I feel we are there near the cieling and getting ever closer and it is more than energy it is the whole system with the planet, web of life, and human.
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Re: Global demand for oil & gas will continue to INCREASE

Unread postby Ibon » Mon 22 Jun 2020, 10:18:41

Folks with intimate knowledge of the oil and gas industry are always most welcome here. That knowledge helps in all the myriad topics we discuss here related to the social, economic and environmental challenges associated with 8 billion plus humans on the planet.
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Re: Global demand for oil & gas will continue to INCREASE

Unread postby asg70 » Mon 22 Jun 2020, 10:37:15

Tom Kirkman wrote:Orwellian MSM and politicians insist that up is down, feelings trump facts, war is peace, and rainbow unicorn farts (non-methane flowery smelling farts) will magically replace *eeeeeeevil* oil and gas and LNG. Poppycock and balderdash.


Ooh, goody. Another new poster with a strong axe to grind.

BOLD PREDICTIONS
-Billions are on the verge of starvation as the lockdown continues. (yoshua, 5/20/20)

HALL OF SHAME:
-Short welched on a bet and should be shunned.
-Frequent-flyers should not cry crocodile-tears over climate-change.
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Re: Global demand for oil & gas will continue to INCREASE

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Mon 22 Jun 2020, 12:21:02

Couldn't agree more on the "shrieking lies repeatedly" comment. And we get plenty of that around here on a number of controversial topics, as you'll see if you hang out and read on enough topics.

For me, it's mostly not about the politics, but about data trends, technology, and science.

First, yes, it would appear that we are going to be using a TREMENDOUS amount of natural gas in coming decades, given its relative cost, how plentiful it apparently is, and that it's relatively clean, as far as hydrocarbons go.

Unless some unexpected substitute(s) are found, surely the global petrochemical demand will grow, probably massively, in coming decades, due to both global population growth, and tremendous additions to the "middle class", and the consumption that entails, globally.


Bloomberg came out with it's annual report of EV demand/supply and the long term future (out to 2040) for EVs and ICEs. Although EV will continue to increase so does ICE out until 2030 where it will peak and EV will gradually take up more and more of the demand. But the bottom line is that out at 2040 there are as many ICE on the road as there is presently. What that means is that the demand for gasoline will be as strong in twenty years as it is today. What has confused many people I think is the statement often made that EV's will gradually replace ICE without the context being provided that overall demand for transportation will continue to increase and ICE still holds the vast majority of that demand for sometime forward.
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Re: Global demand for oil & gas will continue to INCREASE

Unread postby Ibon » Mon 22 Jun 2020, 17:02:40

asg70 wrote:
Tom Kirkman wrote:Orwellian MSM and politicians insist that up is down, feelings trump facts, war is peace, and rainbow unicorn farts (non-methane flowery smelling farts) will magically replace *eeeeeeevil* oil and gas and LNG. Poppycock and balderdash.


Ooh, goody. Another new poster with a strong axe to grind.



What about your axe ASG.

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Re: Global demand for oil & gas will continue to INCREASE

Unread postby JuanP » Mon 22 Jun 2020, 23:38:17

I don't believe in PO demand; I never did. We will burn everything we can, oil, coal, gas, wood, trash, etc.. If we have access to it and it can be burned, we will burn it. Coal will come back too, once it becomes economical again; the only reason we are using less now in some places is because there are other easily available, cheaper options, particularly natural gas.
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Re: Global demand for oil & gas will continue to INCREASE

Unread postby AdamB » Mon 22 Jun 2020, 23:55:42

JuanP wrote:I don't believe in PO demand; I never did.


CSIS, Rystad, WoodMac, DNL-GV.....they don't care what you believe, but if you have more experience on the economics of increasing efficiencies, speed of substitution, environmental pushback and regulatory changes, by all means, we all want to hear about it!

JuanP wrote:We will burn everything we can, oil, coal, gas, wood, trash, etc.. If we have access to it and it can be burned, we will burn it. Coal will come back too, once it becomes economical again; the only reason we are using less now in some places is because there are other easily available, cheaper options, particularly natural gas.


Not an uncommon opinion. How about some data analytics to back it up? Something basic and easy...what assumptions do you use for demand elasticity to price?
Plant Thu 27 Jul 2023 "Personally I think the IEA is exactly right when they predict peak oil in the 2020s, especially because it matches my own predictions."

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Re: Global demand for oil & gas will continue to INCREASE

Unread postby JuanP » Tue 23 Jun 2020, 00:12:39

AdamB wrote:
JuanP wrote:I don't believe in PO demand; I never did.


CSIS, Rystad, WoodMac, DNL-GV.....they don't care what you believe, but if you have more experience on the economics of increasing efficiencies, speed of substitution, environmental pushback and regulatory changes, by all means, we all want to hear about it!

JuanP wrote:We will burn everything we can, oil, coal, gas, wood, trash, etc.. If we have access to it and it can be burned, we will burn it. Coal will come back too, once it becomes economical again; the only reason we are using less now in some places is because there are other easily available, cheaper options, particularly natural gas.


Not an uncommon opinion. How about some data analytics to back it up? Something basic and easy...what assumptions do you use for demand elasticity to price?


And I don't care what they believe, so the feeling is mutual. My opinion is based on my knowledge and understanding of our population level and growth, human nature, history, and evolutionary biology. Time will tell whether all those "experts" you seem to believe in so much or I will be correct. But, my track record so far has been very good, unfortunately.
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Re: Global demand for oil & gas will continue to INCREASE

Unread postby ralfy » Tue 23 Jun 2020, 22:16:54

According to the WB, 71 pct of workers worldwide earn less than $10 daily but would like to earn more to meet basic needs and to avail of middle class conveniences. The other 29 pct are counting on them to do the same because their own income and returns on investment are dependent on more people paying for more goods and services.

Given that, there is no lack of demand not only for oil and gas but for material resources and energy in general. The problem is supply. One source points out that the energy consumption level of the current population where most are poor is 20 TW. In order for more of the 71 pct to afford basic needs, 50 TW is needed. To meet the basic needs of a growing global population, around 75 TW. To meet that plus maintain economic growth, at least a hundred. To meet that plus deal with environmental damage and diminishing returns, even more.
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Re: Global demand for oil & gas will continue to INCREASE

Unread postby AdamB » Tue 23 Jun 2020, 23:09:31

JuanP wrote:
AdamB wrote:Not an uncommon opinion. How about some data analytics to back it up? Something basic and easy...what assumptions do you use for demand elasticity to price?


And I don't care what they believe, so the feeling is mutual.


You must have missed that part at the end. For those who can read, it indicates that they aren't using a belief system. You've got your peak oil bible, and place in the pews in the faith based church of peak, I understand that. They don't.

JuanP wrote:
My opinion is based on my knowledge and understanding of our population level and growth, human nature, history, and evolutionary biology.


And their's would appear to be based on the same thing, plus facts and data and empirical evidence of slowing demand growth prior to coronavirus and growing efficiencies in use of hydrocarbons and rate of market penetration and disruption by the renewables and EVs and whatnot. You know, facts and data and science and stuff spanning topics beyond the limited number you mentioned, some of which aren't even involved in demand assumptions of petrochemicals and fuels.

JuanP wrote: Time will tell whether all those "experts" you seem to believe in so much or I will be correct. But, my track record so far has been very good, unfortunately.


No need to put "experts" in quotes, they have resumes, and you can talk to a few of them and they leave no doubt. They don't say "believe me because, you know, I have a preconceived notion because I read Long Emergency and it must be true! And we can't forget, that it was experts like this who knew in advance that peak oilers were full of crap. What might your "knowledge and understanding" (consisting of pertinent academic training and professional experience I might ask?) be based on?
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Re: Global demand for oil & gas will continue to INCREASE

Unread postby AdamB » Tue 23 Jun 2020, 23:16:57

ralfy wrote:Given that, there is no lack of demand not only for oil and gas but for material resources and energy in general. The problem is supply.


Just can't escape your LATOC Bible teachings can you Ralfy?

You might have missed the part since Matt outed members like you as religious wackos looking for a father figure, that the supply problem wasn't what you were taught in Sunday morning peak oil bible class!

Start with Amy Jaffe Ralfy, try and do some learning.

ralfy wrote:One source points out that the energy consumption level of the current population where most are poor is 20 TW. In order for more of the 71 pct to afford basic needs, 50 TW is needed. To meet the basic needs of a growing global population, around 75 TW. To meet that plus maintain economic growth, at least a hundred. To meet that plus deal with environmental damage and diminishing returns, even more.


Thank goodness you have a source! Does it contradict any of the conclusions of the think tanks I mentioned above, using data and stuff, or are doing your usual cherry picking as you were taught by Matt? You know, the same kind that convinced you and your fellow congregation members that May of 2009 was IT!! in LATOC? Did you buy some of those masks off of Matt to ward off H1N1 that was supposed to end the world then?
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Re: Global demand for oil & gas will continue to INCREASE

Unread postby GHung » Tue 23 Jun 2020, 23:44:16

Tom Kirkman sounds terrified his world is changing.
All in on an oil-based future, Tom? Totally addicted to your 19th century energy sources?
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Re: Global demand for oil & gas will continue to INCREASE

Unread postby REAL Green » Wed 24 Jun 2020, 07:34:28

“David Korowicz @davidkorowicz”
https://twitter.com/davidkorowicz?lang=en
“The precise date is not the key point, but a peaking of global oil production represents a severe risk to global systems integration, and consequently a catastrophic risk to society. I do wish economists and environmentalists were more curious about it. Coronavirus will hasten ‘peak oil’ by three years, says consultancy. Rystad Energy says its estimate of ‘recoverable’ oil resources has dropped by 282bn ft.com”
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Re: Global demand for oil & gas will continue to INCREASE

Unread postby Ibon » Wed 24 Jun 2020, 07:55:30

ralfy wrote:According to the WB, 71 pct of workers worldwide earn less than $10 daily but would like to earn more to meet basic needs and to avail of middle class conveniences. The other 29 pct are counting on them to do the same because their own income and returns on investment are dependent on more people paying for more goods and .


Fossil fuels will not be the constraint required to hold consumption growth in check as many of us anticipated and hoped for as far back as a quarter century ago. The constraints will lie elsewhere.
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Re: Global demand for oil & gas will continue to INCREASE

Unread postby mousepad » Wed 24 Jun 2020, 07:58:32

AdamB wrote:No need to put "experts" in quotes, they have resumes, and you can talk to a few of them and they leave no doubt.


History is full of "experts" wrong predictions. Didn't you know that?

Expert opinion of the day dismissed the possibility of gas lighting, steamships, light bulbs, telephone, gasoline engines, powered flight, radio, rockets etc etc.

Or Lewis Strauss, the chairman of the US atomic energy commission in 1954: "our children will enjoy electricity too cheap to meter"
Or Glen Seaborg, the chairman of the US atomic energy commission in 1971: by 2000 half of america's electricity would come from nuclear reactors and the nuclear reactors powered space ships would be ferrying men to mars.

Didn't you know that prediction especially about the future is hard, even for an "expert" :-)
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Re: Global demand for oil & gas will continue to INCREASE

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Wed 24 Jun 2020, 15:07:38

AdamB wrote:Not an uncommon opinion. How about some data analytics to back it up? Something basic and easy...what assumptions do you use for demand elasticity to price?

As a layman US consumer:

Well, when talking about gasoline, it should be rather obvious. Historically, in the first world anyway, demand is quite inelastic unless pricing gets "extreme".

This is of course, despite the endless false CLAIMS of the doomer patrol that a moderately higher price means certain economic doom, which has NEVER been CLOSE to the truth. As was most recently clearly demonstrated globally and in the US from mid 2010 - mid 2014 with average WTI pricing near $100 a BBL.

When gas prices passed $4 on average in the US in the summer of 2008, for the FIRST time since the early 80's, I noticed concrete evidence from ordinary people that the vehicles they were buying and the driving they were doing -- that gasoline prices was a serious factor in the decision making.

...

Now, depending on how deeply EV's (including HEV's) penetrate the first world light vehicle market in the coming years, that inelasticity of demand could well diminish. After all, if I (or any Joe 6-pack) buy, say, a Toyota HEV for only roughly a few $thousand more than the ICE model, and roughly DOUBLE my city mileage -- then if I drive a lot of city miles, it's a no-brainer if gas prices rise significantly and stay up for awhile.

Or at some point, that might even nudge me toward a BEV, depending on the trade-offs re net pricing (including tax incentives), range, convenience, etc.

For the rest of the major energy sources, for the typical consumer, I'll say somewhat similar, at least until green energy alternatives get really compelling re price and convenience.

Example -- new furnaces are expensive. It would take something SERIOUS to get me to want to convert from my efficient NG furnace. And it would take SERIOUSLY low prices to make me want to go solar roof and lots of battery backup, when my Generac whole house generator does the job reliably, at low cost, and can run just fine for WEEKS (unlike even a lot of batteries at very high cost) if a serious longer term power outage ensues. No matter what the outage, I only see a 30ish second outage until the generator turns itself on, and the occasional brief sag (which doesn't impair anything) when a new power load is added.

Oh, and the house I live in had a neighborhood outage for a good two weeks from a major (for our area) ice storm in 2003. And for several days a few times since then from ice storms and wind storms, so it's not like meaningful power outages are highly improbable, at least where I live.

...

Now, as far as commercial demand, I can't say. My experience from work is that WHEN they wanted to replace serious equipment, they would look at various cost alternatives, at the time, and then live with the decision.
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: Global demand for oil & gas will continue to INCREASE

Unread postby AdamB » Wed 24 Jun 2020, 19:34:25

REAL Green wrote:“David Korowicz @davidkorowicz”
https://twitter.com/davidkorowicz?lang=en
“The precise date is not the key point, but a peaking of global oil production represents a severe risk to global systems integration, and consequently a catastrophic risk to society. I do wish economists and environmentalists were more curious about it. Coronavirus will hasten ‘peak oil’ by three years, says consultancy. Rystad Energy says its estimate of ‘recoverable’ oil resources has dropped by 282bn ft.com”


Folks are still pretending that David The Doomer is a credible source? How amusing!
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