Peak Oil News and Message Boards

We just hit $4 here in Maine. I think that's the new price. Most people around here drive around in full sized trucks and SUV's, so it's bound to hurt them a lot. We drive a small truck, an Echo and an electric car, so it doesn't affect us as much. Even so it hurts to have to fork over $40 to fill up nowadays.

First the massive Chevron refinery explosion in Richmond, now the Exxon Mobil refinery in Torrance has been taken offline:

Gas prices leap past $5 in Calif.

Some Los Angeles-area gas stations shut off their pumps because of rationing by suppliers, and they displayed makeshift signs explaining that the shortages were not their fault. Drivers formed long lines at stations that did have gas; some stations raised prices to more than $5 a gallon for regular gasoline.

Prices at independent gas station Low-P in Calabasas, Los Angeles County, Oct 7, 2012

http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/business/2012/10/07/gas-prices-leap-past-5-in-calif-.html

And as usual, the gas thieves are at it again:

California sees record gas prices as police deal with fuel bandits

California's average gasoline price set a record Saturday of $4.614 for a gallon of regular, up 12.8 cents overnight. Several service stations are charging more than $5 a gallon for regular gasoline.

Gasoline prices skyrocketed after the Exxon Mobil refinery in Torrance was knocked offline Monday by a power outage. Other lingering refinery and pipeline problems also contributed to the soaring costs at the pump.

Last month, police in the Antelope Valley were looking for thieves who stole gas from car and truck rental agencies.

Now, Police in Roseville are looking for gasoline thieves who struck two stations, taking nearly 1,000 gallons of the increasingly expensive fuel.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2012/10/california-sees-record-gas-prices-as-police-deal-with-fuel-bandits.html

A new record will be set today according to CNBC:

Gas prices set record: 1,000 days above $3 a gallon

By now every driver knows the drill: The price of gasoline ratchets up, there's an outcry among motorists who feel gouged at the pump and then things settle down as the higher price becomes the new normal.

Well, AAA has come up with a sobering statistic: the average price of gasoline will surpass $3 per gallon Tuesday for the 1,000th consecutive day. That's never happened before, the motoring organization says.
In case you're wondering, the current streak began on Dec. 23, 2010. Today, the national average for a gallon of regular is $3.52, according to AAA's daily price tracking service. That's a nickel a gallon less than the average so far this year. And unless there's another recession, AAA forecasts that a price floor of $3 a gallon is basically here to stay.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/101039695

Did a search of peakoil.com but didn't see any direct reference to this..

Something that I noticed that even with fuel taxes in europe at about 50-60% of the retail price of gasoline the retail prices haven't tracked anywhere near the increase in the barrel prices (1990-1999 about $15 and after 2010 holding at around $100 is a near six-fold jump). Obviously the retail margins on selling fuel have substantially dropped, might not be making any money on selling fuel.

e.g
http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB1 ... 1725847318

according to which there was quite a change of ownership of retail gasoline stations in the US

JV - As a general rule the higher the price of oil the smaller the margins for refiners. Has always been such. Which is why the refiners are increasing their campaign against the export of US produced oil.

ROCKMAN wrote:JV - As a general rule the higher the price of oil the smaller the margins for refiners. Has always been such. Which is why the refiners are increasing their campaign against the export of US produced oil.

Yep, I just wonder how many retail gas stations are near going under.

Interesting. I guess that for independent retailers the big question is how much their cost has gone up in relation to the price of a barrel.

Yair . . . Unless it is a very high litre site I understand that in my part of Australia roadhouse fuel sales barely pay their way . . . the fuel is the lure to get customers into the Shell or Mobil shop to buy some bits, a serve of fries and a burger and a couple of bags of ice.

Cheers

AndyA wrote:Which is very true, all consumption taxes are very regressive.

Or you could say it helps address tragedy of the commons, because the cost to the environment is never factored into what people pay.

I know it's an "apples to oranges" sort of comparison, but the average price of E85 "corn fuel" as it is called in the MidWest is already $1.86 on average and it can be found as low as $1.14 per US gallon.

That is enough of a price range to make a flex fuel engine option worth it - provided you can ignore the other impacts of corn subsidies:

1) The price of corn is approximately 40% higher than it would be without distilling ethanol from a food crop, causing hunger throughout the world.
2) The GHG emissions for producing E85 are higher than for 100% gasoline or 10% ethanol fuels.
3) Taxpayer funded crop subsidies for big agribusiness are a major budgetary expense.

Subjectivist wrote:In 1993 President Clinton should have adopted the penny tax plan. Federal fuel taxes would increase one penny the first Monday of every month until the rates matched those in The EU. The gradual nature of the increase would give more than enough time for the population to gradually shift to more fuel efficient transportation over time. As fuel guzzling trucks and SUV's wore out they would be replaced with more efficient types. Now 21 years later our fuel tax would be around $2.50, still far below EU levels, but we wouldn't even notice a $1.00 change in fuel price much because the proportional change would be much less going from $5.50 to $4.50 than the change from $3.50 to $2.50

+1

Sounds perfect to me. However, I wanted to start in 1980 during the THIRD big oil price spike within a single decade. (Seemed like pretty good evidence to me that oil was going to be a long term issue for the planetary population -- so time to get serious about conservation).

One tweak I'd add -- when the price gets to the level of the EU (average), I'd have the country reassess. Perhaps the right price is the price needed to pay ALL the known social costs, including ALL military protection of oil, oil shipping, etc. Or maybe the right price is the level required to get people to SERIOUSLY conserve energy. (i.e. perhaps the right price is higher (maybe much higher) than the typical EU price.

Sadly, given the typical American attitude (buy everything one can afford AND borrow, and to hell with the consequences because "That's my right" -- good luck getting the short sighted populace or the clowns they elect to go for anything so rational or requiring long term thinking.

One nice side effect is the tax revenue is quickly there to likely take care of the modernizing of ALL the basic transportation, water, electric, energy maintenance (like aging gas lines) etc. in coming years, solving pretty much the entire infrastructure problem. Heck, there might be a lot more revenue than that -- so some debt could be paid down, etc.

And for those who scream about regressive taxes, the poor, etc. -- there could even be limited tax credits for "the poor" (which already generally receive net federal income taxes, by the way).

But no, better to continue American BAU and blame someone, anyone -- else for all the oil we burn to have more stuff and a "better" lifestyle.

KaiserJeep wrote:That is enough of a price range to make a flex fuel engine option worth it

Did you phone this in from 2008 or something? Pretty much everyone realizes now that biofuels are a dead-end for reasons that have been discussed here ad nauseum. The only useful biofuel is WVO (with diesel) and there's not enough of it to go around.

Nope, and keep in mind that as an AGW/CC skeptic, I make different choices than do AGW fanboys.

IMHO, an engine that accepts E85 fuel can be fed longer than a conventional gas engine when oil gets too expensive for widespread use as fuel. Long term, I plan to own at least one BEV and at least one Flex-Fuel engined vehicle for longer trips. That should cover my anticipated transportation needs for the 2-3 decades of life I have left.

KaiserJeep wrote:IMHO, an engine that accepts E85 fuel can be fed longer than a conventional gas engine when oil gets too expensive for widespread use as fuel.

I've got nothing against having a car that can accept E85. I don't see why all gas cars don't already have that feature by now. But promoting this as some sort of smart buy for doomers, though? Not going to make much of a difference. A used diesel car would be a better idea.

Well, then think of the time before the oil shortage when corn subsidies still exist. You can buy an E85 fuel that gets 3/4ths the mileage for 2/3rds the price of gasoline or E10 fuel mixtures.

KaiserJeep wrote:Well, then think of the time before the oil shortage when corn subsidies still exist. You can buy an E85 fuel that gets 3/4ths the mileage for 2/3rds the price of gasoline or E10 fuel mixtures.

Sounds like a really short-term approach to saving money whereas a high-price durable good like a new car is more of a medium to long-term investment.

When I bought my Mazda 3 over 10 years ago I made a resolution to drive it into the ground but simultaneously I told myself it would be the last pure gas car I'd ever buy. I probably saved a lot more money than your strategy ever will by paying the loan off and not having car payments all this time. A lot of people fixate on price at the pump when a payment on a new car is really where your expenses are.

I recently did some looking into a Volt and if I were to lease it, I'm having to pay probably over $300 a month, which is what I was paying to buy the Mazda, for the privilege of going gas-free. But I don't come close to using $300 worth of gas a month with the Mazda. It's really not going to save me any money over the course of the lease vs. how I commute right now, even if gas goes back up to $4/gallon. As such, having one is really a luxury. The only way you can start to factor in fuel savings is after the vehicle is completely paid off, but then my monthly bill would be significantly higher. Pstarr will probably snark over this, but I know what it is and what it isn't. It's not a get-out-of-peak-oil-free card. It's primarily something people who have the disposable income can opt into in order to feel better about not using gas.

It's just that in our consumer culture we are so indoctrinated in the refresh cycle of new car followed by new car that we just assume there's always going to be a car payment but it doesn't have to be that way.

Well, you couldn't prove it by me. My three Jeeps are model years 1967, 2001, and 2003 - all older than your Mazda.

I plan one BEV for local stuff, and one FFV for visiting my grandkids.

A small tidbit about gasoline prices: PEMEX is opening gasoline stations in the US. And the one that just opened in Houston: $1.54/gallon. Just looking for another profit center: PEMEX spends about 25% of the revenue it gets from its oil exports to pay for its refined product imports. I assume what PEMEX is doing is swapping oil in kind for gasoline from Gulf Coast refineries. Given the potential for a significant increase in US gasoline consumption it sounds like a good move at the right time. Also consider how many Mexican expats in the US that might like to support the PEMEX effort.

It's very unlikely PEMEX is exporting refinery products to the US.

Here in the central Puget Lowland there are a few Spirit gas stations. Today I checked the price for regular and found it $1.34 a gallon higher than at the 7 Eleven down the street ($2.55/gal), yet people buy gas there.

Not long ago while passing the station I saw on the pumps "Our gas is all gasoline. No ethanol."

I feel (obscurely) pleased.

Synapsid wrote:Here in the central Puget Lowland there are a few Spirit gas stations. Today I checked the price for regular and found it $1.34 a gallon higher than at the 7 Eleven down the street ($2.55/gal), yet people buy gas there.

Not long ago while passing the station I saw on the pumps "Our gas is all gasoline. No ethanol."

I feel (obscurely) pleased.

In no logical world does the energy difference between E-10 and E-00 make up for that kind of a price differential.