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Re: US Administration likes high gasoline prices

Unread postPosted: Fri 02 Mar 2012, 18:28:35
by Pops
rangerone314 wrote:Question, if the pipeline is built and the planned expansions to Port Arthur and Houston are also built, what prevents the oil from being refined into gasoline there and then exported overseas to customers willing to pay?

Second question, if the gasoline is exported, how does that help gas prices in the US?

Third question, why not build refineries onsite or close to the tar sands and then truck it to the US cities that will consume it?

Fourth question, Is it because that would actually lower gas prices in the US, or because China would be unhappy?


1. You're right, China is going to get the stuff in the end no matter.
2. in the short run the pipe will raise gas prices in the US because the Cushing glut discount will evaporate.
3. See no. 1 - but also pipes are cheaper.

Re: US Administration likes high gasoline prices

Unread postPosted: Fri 02 Mar 2012, 18:54:54
by dinopello
Pops wrote:My overall point is the original post was a sloppy commentary favoring Drill Baby over transition.
Agree with how O is trying to move ahead or don't but it the 'Obama 'likes' high gas prices and hates jobs bit is just so much partisan pap.


Republicans want to deplete America's resources as quickly as possible. Would that be fair to say ?

Re: US Administration likes high gasoline prices

Unread postPosted: Fri 02 Mar 2012, 19:22:03
by Pops
Maybe. But surely Mainstream Americans believe our resources aren't 'depletable" would be fair.

The thing that surprises me isn't the mainstream - yet - this is po.com, where for 8 years we've been talking about how sad it is we didn't start transitioning as a country 20 years ago. The article quoted in the OP commentary is all about Chu explaining they can't do anything about the oil supply but they can try to transition away from oil.

One thing is sure, there are only going to be the 2 ways to proceed, either Bush/Cheney's or Obama's.

Re: US Administration likes high gasoline prices

Unread postPosted: Fri 02 Mar 2012, 19:41:00
by dinopello
Pops wrote:One thing is sure, there are only going to be the 2 ways to proceed, either Bush/Cheney's or Obama's.


At the Federal level, I doubt we will have any kind of sustained consensus on what to do - at least for a quite a while. It's too easy to sloganeer and generate disapointment with the guys in power. All the action with regard to prepping for transition is at the local level. And, at that level it can be effective, but is not at all widespread - in fact its kind of rare, but not non-existent.

Re: US Administration likes high gasoline prices

Unread postPosted: Fri 02 Mar 2012, 20:19:16
by Plantagenet
rangerone314 wrote:Question, if the pipeline is built and the planned expansions to Port Arthur and Houston are also built, what prevents the oil from being refined into gasoline there and then exported overseas to customers willing to pay?


They are exporting refined gasoline now that isn't used in the Gulf area. Don't you know that?

rangerone314 wrote:Second question, if the gasoline is exported, how does that help gas prices in the US?


Its called the law of supply and demand. If you increase the supply of oil coming into the US by one million barrels a day coming down the Keystone XL pipeline, the price of gasoline will drop for US consumers, especially in the Gulf Coast states. Any surplus will continue to be exported, as happens now.

rangerone314 wrote:Third question, why not build refineries onsite or close to the tar sands and then truck it to the US cities that will consume it?


Three reasons (1) oil refineries are immensely expensive bits of infrastructure. It doesn't make much sense to spend tens of billions of dollars on new refineries in northern Alberta when you've got perfectly good old refineries with a trained workforce waiting for oil to refine already standing there along the Gulf Coast. (2) Oil refineries employ thousands of highly paid people, who in turn require tens of thousands of people to supply them with food, booze, clothing etc. Have you ever been to northern Alberta? There is NOTHING there. You wouldn't just be building new refineries in northern Alberta----you'd have to build an entire city in the wilderness to house, feed, clothe, and support the Refinery workforce----. (3) Even if you did refine it in northern ALberta, you'd still need a pipeline to get it to the USA. Do you have any idea how many trucks you'd need to bring a million barrels a day from Alberta to the USA?

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Re: US Administration likes high gasoline prices

Unread postPosted: Fri 02 Mar 2012, 20:31:14
by pstarr
dinopello wrote:
Pops wrote:One thing is sure, there are only going to be the 2 ways to proceed, either Bush/Cheney's or Obama's.


At the Federal level, I doubt we will have any kind of sustained consensus on what to do - at least for a quite a while. It's too easy to sloganeer and generate disapointment with the guys in power. All the action with regard to prepping for transition is at the local level. And, at that level it can be effective, but is not at all widespread - in fact its kind of rare, but not non-existent.

I disagree. Many local municipalities have at least paid lip service to alternative transportation modalities; how many towns don't have bike trails/lanes? But I find that rather pointless;

b) It is only through the condemnation of railroad right-of-ways and private property (through the exercise of eminent domain) that train/trolly lines can be drilled through our poorly designed and dispersed auto-centric suburbia. No private company or local/state municipality has the power and authority to do this. Only a concerted National Marshal Plan for Alternative Energy and Transport could.

a) regardless, all car roads are destined sooner rather than later to become bike paths, then goat trails.

so we better get busy NOW. Does anyone here seriously believe a republican administration is capable of acting properly in the little time we have left? Ha ha ha

Re: US Administration likes high gasoline prices

Unread postPosted: Fri 02 Mar 2012, 22:23:00
by rangerone314
Plantagenet wrote:
rangerone314 wrote:Question, if the pipeline is built and the planned expansions to Port Arthur and Houston are also built, what prevents the oil from being refined into gasoline there and then exported overseas to customers willing to pay?


They are exporting refined gasoline now that isn't used in the Gulf area. Don't you know that?

Yes, I did know that. That's why I brought it up.

Plantagenet wrote:Three reasons (1) oil refineries are immensely expensive bits of infrastructure. It doesn't make much sense to spend tens of billions of dollars on new refineries in northern Alberta when you've got perfectly good old refineries with a trained workforce waiting for oil to refine already standing there along the Gulf Coast. (2) Oil refineries employ thousands of highly paid people, who in turn require tens of thousands of people to supply them with food, booze, clothing etc. Have you ever been to northern Alberta? There is NOTHING there. You wouldn't just be building new refineries in northern Alberta----you'd have to build an entire city in the wilderness to house, feed, clothe, and support the Refinery workforce----. (3) Even if you did refine it in northern ALberta, you'd still need a pipeline to get it to the USA. Do you have any idea how many trucks you'd need to bring a million barrels a day from Alberta to the USA?
How many tank cars? Canadian National Railway (CN on the stock exchange) runs from Alberta and into the US, I believe, shaped like a "T" from the Pacific Northwest to Halifax in the East and down to New Orleans.

Building an entire city to house, feed, clothe & support the refinery workforce... I bet a lot of Americans could come up with construction equipment to help build... sounds like a lot more jobs than for a silly pipeline. And I think it was 7 outdated refineries (6 in the US coasts & 1 in Europe) that are shutting down that will also drive gas prices higher.

It would be an ambitious project, and would require more drive and imagination than the current Demopublicans in power.

Re: US Administration likes high gasoline prices

Unread postPosted: Fri 02 Mar 2012, 23:46:09
by Keith_McClary
Plantagenet wrote:It doesn't make much sense to spend tens of billions of dollars on new refineries in northern Alberta when you've got perfectly good old refineries with a trained workforce waiting for oil to refine already standing there along the Gulf Coast. (2) Oil refineries employ thousands of highly paid people, who in turn require tens of thousands of people to supply them with food, booze, clothing etc.
Some Canadians think we are stupid to export raw materials like crude. We should have those jobs refining it to gasoline, petrochemicals and finished products for export to the US:
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Re: US Administration likes high gasoline prices

Unread postPosted: Sat 03 Mar 2012, 05:36:57
by Cog
President Romney will fast-track the approval of the Keystone next year.

Gas price thread..........

Unread postPosted: Tue 20 Mar 2012, 11:05:41
by vision-master
I think we had one going back in 08......... so why not again?

Out on the scoot doing errands today and seeing gas NOW @ $3.79 gal.

I hear we have low petro costs here in the midwest compaired to the rest of the Country, thanks to Canada.

What's in your gas tank today?

Re: Gas price thread..........

Unread postPosted: Tue 20 Mar 2012, 12:16:14
by Revi
It dipped to around $3.79 and now is back to around $3.82 here in Maine.

Re: Gas price thread..........

Unread postPosted: Tue 20 Mar 2012, 12:26:48
by vision-master
Heard a little over $5 gal will start killing many ppl's evil habits.

Re: Gas price thread..........

Unread postPosted: Tue 20 Mar 2012, 13:13:59
by careinke
Most stations around me are now at $4.12/Gal. I did manage to buy at an Indian reservation two days ago for $3.98/Gal. That will probably be my last under $4 for a while.

Re: Gas price thread..........

Unread postPosted: Tue 20 Mar 2012, 15:30:11
by Fishman
"Heard a little over $5 gal will start killing many ppl's evil habits"
Well, we know a little over $4 is killing one certain president's chances for a second term, so I guess your statement is particularly true.

Re: Gas price thread..........

Unread postPosted: Tue 20 Mar 2012, 15:51:17
by pfreyre
$3.79 just outside of downtown Minneapolis yesterday. It was 30 cents cheaper only month ago.

Re: Gas price thread..........

Unread postPosted: Tue 20 Mar 2012, 15:55:05
by kublikhan
Bah, $4.20 here.

Check here for prices around the country: Current Average Gas Prices By City/State

Re: Gas price thread..........

Unread postPosted: Tue 20 Mar 2012, 16:45:44
by Plantagenet
Just back from Barcelona, Spain. Gas was about 1.80 euros per liter, or roughly equivalent to about 7.20 euros per gallon----The Euro is worth about 1.34 right now, so that comes to about $9.65/gallon USD.

No wonder lots of people ride 80 mpg scooters there.

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Re: Gas price thread..........

Unread postPosted: Wed 21 Mar 2012, 11:13:04
by ritter
$4.29 around here for the past few weeks.

Re: Gas price thread..........

Unread postPosted: Wed 21 Mar 2012, 12:20:37
by Sixstrings
Plantagenet wrote:No wonder lots of people ride 80 mpg scooters there.


Well ya know.. honestly it's time, the US needs to convert to those tiny European vehicles.

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We're now at the point of cooking up Canada, blasting shale oil toxic water into our aquifers, and too much food cropland has been switched over to corn for ethanol. It's time we drive more fuel efficiently.

The problem is.. everyone has to, or at least *most* otherwise it's not safe driving a subcompact and some redneck in a monster truck or soccer mom in her Hummer slams into you. As for motorcycles and scooters, when I sit and think about it every motorbike rider I know has had a bad scrape or two. I've known two that are dead now, motorcycle accidents. Personally I won't drive a small vehicle and cerainly no scooter, not with half blind old folks driving their landyachts around. It's not safe.

(yikes after my posts just now I check drudgereport and the ads are for robots and scooters.. I have no intention of buying either)

Re: Gas price thread..........

Unread postPosted: Wed 21 Mar 2012, 13:38:32
by Revi
The price is going up a bit to around $3.84 here in Maine. We drive a tiny electric car around town, but it's not allowed on the highways. There is a way around these gas prices, but most people won't do it.