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Tourists are Killing the Planet

Re: Tourists are Killing the Planet

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Wed 25 Sep 2019, 22:56:43

Ummm rocdoc, the 1% do NOT squeeze into the cattle car flight to Spain,

nice try but your logic missed .... if ya thunked about it.


exactly where do you get from that article that they are talking about "the 1%"? They are talking about statistics of total English citizens, nothing to do with people who can afford to fly in First Class. 1% here refers to total English citizens, not the rich ones.

My point here is that the frequent flyers are there because it is a cheap means of having a short weekend holiday in Europe, of which they can have more than one.

so your logic missed....if ya thunked about it.
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Re: Tourists are Killing the Planet

Unread postby clif » Fri 27 Sep 2019, 01:05:50

Dumdoc, the entirety of both posts

yours

1% of English residents take one-fifth of overseas flights, survey shows



the reason so many UK residents go on overseas flights is because for about 150 quid or so they can fly on Easy Jet or Ryan to nice warm spots like coastal Spain. Their holiday when it is all said and done probably costs them less than going down to the seashore in southern England. Given they cram those planes with passengers my guess is when you compare the emissions per person versus if they all drove their own cars somewhere in the UK for holiday (o9Ar God forbid across the chunnel to France) it would be quite favorable.

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Re: Tourists are Killing the Planet

Postby clif » Wed Sep 25, 2019 9:59 pm
Ummm rocdoc, the 1% do NOT squeeze into the cattle car flight to Spain,

nice try but your logic missed .... if ya thunked about it.


exactly where do you get from that article that they are talking about "the 1%"?

Um you dishonest troll, from the actual quote YOU posted it specifically says 1% of english

and of course from an actual quote from the article;

“What we need to do is target a minority of problem flyers and stop them from taking so many flights,” he added.


a minority like say 1% who take 20% of all flights........

nice try but the post should be clear unless you are just being you usual disingenuous self here.
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Re: Tourists are Killing the Planet

Unread postby EdwinSm » Fri 27 Sep 2019, 04:13:23

Tourist may be killing the planet, but Saudi Arabia is hoping they will help save the country.

Saudi Arabia will open its doors to international tourists for the first time as part of a broader push to cut its economic dependence on oil.

On Friday, the kingdom will launch a visa regime for 49 countries and relax strict dress codes for female visitors.

Tourism Minister Ahmad al-Khateeb described it as a "historic moment" for the country.

Visas have until now largely been restricted to pilgrims, business people and expatriate workers.

Saudi Arabia is also hoping to secure foreign investment in the tourism industry. It wants tourism to rise from 3% to 10% of gross domestic product by 2030.
......
The moves to open up tourism is central to Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman's wider economic reform programme that aims to reduce the kingdom's focus on oil.

Under the plan, Saudi Arabia wants to increase international and domestic visits to 100 million a year by 2030. The government expects to create one million tourism jobs.
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-49848068
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Re: Tourists are Killing the Planet

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Fri 27 Sep 2019, 12:31:21

exactly where do you get from that article that they are talking about "the 1%"?

Um you dishonest troll, from the actual quote YOU posted it specifically says 1% of english

and of course from an actual quote from the article;


Good Lord....you are the one who said "the 1% don't squeeze into the Cattle cars".

nice try but the post should be clear unless you are just being you usual disingenuous self here.


yeah your post was clear...you were claiming that this 1% of frequent flyers must be rich folks flying in first class.

Not sure where you come from but over the years I spent in the UK it was quite common for folks to hop on Ryan Air or Easyjet for a quick weekend somewhere in Europe. They did that numerous times every year because it is actually as cheap to fly to France on one of these "cattle cars" as you call them as it is to drive and much quicker, making a weekend holiday doable. These weren't executives flying on business and it wasn't the very rich jetsetting about it was the average working bloke who was taking advantage of cheap regional flights.
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Re: Tourists are Killing the Planet

Unread postby clif » Fri 27 Sep 2019, 21:25:37

Still tap dancing around the money quote crocdoc

a minority like say 1% who take 20% of all flights........
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Re: Tourists are Killing the Planet

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Fri 27 Sep 2019, 23:27:31

Still tap dancing around the money quote crocdoc

OK, apparently you are a moron. How difficult is it to understand that 1% of the total UK travel is by a group of people. It isn't rich people, it isn't business people it is just people according to the survey.
MY point, which apparently requires me putting it in slow language for those who have trouble with cognitive issues... the excessive travel to Europe is because flights are very cheap and there are a lot of folks who take advantage of that for weekend short vaccies to nice places in Europe. It costs them less time and dosh than driving out to a beach or holiday resort in the UK.
This isn't wealthy people traveling more, it isn't business folks traveling more, it is folks who suddenly have an opportunity to see Europe cheaply for weekend sojourns.
If you have a different interpretation then please share it with us. Please show us that this is all wealthy people traveling more. Otherwise, your comment simply points to stupidity on your part.
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Re: Tourists are Killing the Planet

Unread postby clif » Sat 28 Sep 2019, 00:10:28

News that 1% of England’s residents take 20% of flights abroad is yet more proof that a handful of people ruin things for the rest of us


crocdoc the actual subtitle to the Guardian story

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... are_btn_tw

1% OF PEOPLE

take

20% OF the flights.

do you UNDERSTAND it now??????????????
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Re: Tourists are Killing the Planet

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Sat 28 Sep 2019, 11:17:12

1% OF PEOPLE

take

20% OF the flights.

do you UNDERSTAND it now??????????????


apparently you are suffering from cognitive dissonance. Your original claim was that it was "the 1%" and that they were not flying on the cheap flights. I have no idea what you are on about now. Perhaps English is a second language for you...apparently not a very good one.

My point stands. The frequent flyers are almost certainly taking advantage of incredibly cheap flights to Europe which allows for numerous 3 day vacations throughout the year.
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Re: Tourists are Killing the Planet

Unread postby dohboi » Sun 29 Sep 2019, 14:00:57

‘Worse Than Anyone Expected’: Air Travel Emissions Vastly Outpace Predictions

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/19/clim ... sions.html

Greenhouse gas emissions from commercial air travel are growing at a faster clip than predicted in previous, already dire, projections, according to new research — putting pressure on airline regulators to take stronger action as they prepare for a summit next week.
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Re: Tourists are Killing the Planet

Unread postby clif » Sun 29 Sep 2019, 23:06:10

Poor crocdoc argued himself into a simple corner,

he cannot admit the simple fact 1% of British citizens take 20% of the flights ....

ruins the it's all the poors fault for AGW

AGW btw, something he works very hard in denying,

humans are the main driver in the current global warming period,

and tbe most affluent of those people cause the majority of the harm
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Re: Tourists are Killing the Planet

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Sun 29 Sep 2019, 23:18:49

he cannot admit the simple fact 1% of British citizens take 20% of the flights ....


apparently you are a complete idiot. I only pointed out that those people taking the flights were doing so because of the cheap flights to Europe by regional airlines that allowed them to take numerous weekend holidays each year rather than one two week holiday to Dubai or somewhere else each year. I can post the stats to show that if you want.

ruins the it's all the poors fault for AGW

AGW btw, something he works very hard in denying,

humans are the main driver in the current global warming period,

and tbe most affluent of those people cause the majority of the harm


OK, not only is English a second language for you but apparently sensible thinking is not part of your kit either.

Read the report, it says nothing about affluent people, it says nothing about who is actually the frequent flyers, it doesn't talk about humans driving global warming. If it does please quote it for us all here.
As I have said, a while ago it became very cheap for people to fly to nice warm places in Europe. If you are a middle-class worker in the UK the idea that you can get a three day weekend on a nice Spanish beach for about 50 quid return (on sale) is pretty attractive. And guess what, they take advantage of it. The statistics show that the number of holidays taken have decreased in number of days but have increased in number of visits. Exactly what I've said.

You want to blame this on rich people, not the case as far as the UK is concerned. If you want to stop frequent flyers (not sure why you would given they are probably throwing out a lot less greenhouse gases by flying than they would be by taking the train or driving) then make regional airlines raise their prices.
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Re: Tourists are Killing the Planet

Unread postby clif » Sun 29 Sep 2019, 23:36:28

Much butthurt you expose with every post crocdoc

1% of English residents took nearly 20% of all flights abroad.

It certainly wasn't a vast majority of people living paycheck to paycheck running up the frequent flyer status in that way.

But you continue to post your less than erudite attempts at statics to try to prove something you dislike....

Because for some reason the science of global warming gives you the butthurt.
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Re: Tourists are Killing the Planet

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Mon 30 Sep 2019, 12:15:51

1% of English residents took nearly 20% of all flights abroad.

It certainly wasn't a vast majority of people living paycheck to paycheck running up the frequent flyer status in that way.


you really are that stupid aren't you. Did I say it was people living pay check to pay check? No what I said was it is the average citizen in the UK taking advantage of the cheap flights. The article makes no mention of income levels but you jumped on this as if it did.

Here is a graph from the Economist that points to exactly what I have said. The increase in flights is due mainly to people now flying for short 2-3 day vacations throughout the year rather than one big two week holiday as they did years ago. Why is that? Because the regional airlines offer extremely cheap fairs. Have you ever been to the UK ? Have you ever taken a flight out of Lutin? There aren't any limosines parked in the overnight and those EasyJet flights are full of the middle class.

Image

the only relation to climate science here (which you clearly have zero understanding about) is that on a per capita basis all those people flying to Spain are expelling a lot less CO2 than if they were all driving somewhere for a similar short holiday.
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Re: Tourists are Killing the Planet

Unread postby clif » Tue 01 Oct 2019, 00:38:00

Yer graph explain very little, given it states between 40-50 million people took trips for summer holiday out of a nation of over 65 million people. It doesn't state how many people only took 1 trip, how many took 2-3 trips and how many took 10 or more trips.

the article states very clearly 1% take 20% of trips, which means the people who take only 1 -3 trips a year are NOT the people being talked about,

yer also conflating "commercial" flights for holiday vs people who like Jeffery Epstein OWN their plane and can fly at will, which is why the term "international" was used not the term "commercial".

rich people with their own plane make many more flights each month than the people going on holidays once or twice a year .......


Seems yer clueless to the simplicity of this....

among other things......
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Re: Tourists are Killing the Planet

Unread postby Mercian63 » Tue 01 Oct 2019, 01:36:39

rockdoc123 wrote:
on a per capita basis all those people flying to Spain are expelling a lot less CO2 than if they were all driving somewhere for a similar short holiday.


This logic is suspect, especially for people living in the south of England (where the main roads are hellish congested). The key element is time. A medium-haul flight will typically achieve a fuel economy per seat of about 80 mpg. We'll assume that these flights are fully booked for the reasons you give. However, in a flight to the south of Spain, one tourist will cover about 1,500 air miles in a Friday evening flight. Fuel burned c.19 gallons.

Alternatively, a couple (and I suspect most of these short trips are by couples without kids, or else with adult offspring) driving up the country for a few days would be most unlikely to drive more than 200 miles, which gets you to the West Country or Yorkshire, pretty typical destinations for southees. That's a burn of just two gallons per seat in a typical 50 mpg car-just one tenth of the burn by jet, despite the jet having a higher fuel economy per seat.

The central myth in the notion of air travel ever being green is the speed at which the individual can burn fuel.

I have a nephew who for a time was flying from UK to LA every few weeks for romantic reasons (11,000 miles round trip). When I sat him down to calculate the equivalent driving he would have to do to burn that much fuel, he was flabbergasted. It was one year's driving per round trip to LA - and he was doing that every few weeks.
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Re: Tourists are Killing the Planet

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Tue 01 Oct 2019, 12:01:43

the article states very clearly 1% take 20% of trips, which means the people who take only 1 -3 trips a year are NOT the people being talked about,


what did I say….I realize you don’t actually read anything anyone else posts but what I said was the folks who are taking cheap trips to Europe due so numerous times a year. I remember folks from the company I worked with in London who were flying to Spain or Portugal once a month at least. It was that cheap. Like a weekend at the cottage. That is what the chart is suggesting on average people are taking more flights and staying less time. 1% of the UK is 660,000 people, assuming 200 people per flight thats still 3300 flights.

yer also conflating "commercial" flights for holiday vs people who like Jeffery Epstein OWN their plane and can fly at will, which is why the term "international" was used not the term "commercial".


Don’t be an imbecile. International simply means a flight that is from the UK to another country (i.e. Europe as I said). “International” is the opposite of “Domestic”, “commercial” is the opposite of “private”. Did the article say anything about private flights? No it did not.

rich people with their own plane make many more flights each month than the people going on holidays once or twice a year .......


I suppose you have some facts and figures to back that up right? If you want to make crap up have at it but don’t expect anybody here to buy it.

As to my comparison between air flight for numerous passengers versus vehicle travel instead my reasoning follows:

The energy intensity of flying has been steadily dropping over the last few decades. At this point in time Cars and airplanes burn about the same number of BTU/passenger mile as shown in this chart. That being the case if you have a plane with 200 passengers travelling 500 miles versus those same 200 passengers pairing up and each driving the same distance the equivalency where X is number of BTU’s burned would be for airplane travel 500X whereas for the equivalent of those folks driving by car 100*500X. For total energy usage the plane flight wins simply because it can transport more people.

Image

If you look at CO2 according to the EIA jet fuel produces 21.1 lbs of CO2 per gallon whereas fuel for cars is 19.6 lbs. Looking at averages for flights that would get from UK to Europe we are talking about 10 lb/mi of fuel burned. Using 6.69 US gal/ lb of fuel that works out to 1.5 US gal/mi flown. For a flight of 500 miles then the CO2 emitted would be 21.1*1.5*500 or 15,825 lbs of CO2. For a car that gets on average 20 miles per gallon that’s 0.05 gal/mile so the CO2 emitted over that distance would be 0.05 * 500*19.6 or 490 lbs of CO2. But we are talking about 100 vehicles taking that trip so comparing apples to apples we have 49,000 lbs of CO2 emitted by vehicle versus 15,825 lbs of CO2 emitted by plane for the same number of people traveling the same distance by car versus plane.
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Re: Tourists are Killing the Planet

Unread postby Revi » Tue 01 Oct 2019, 12:14:54

I figured it out and it's about 1/4 lb of CO2 per person per mile for flying, versus about 1/2 lb. per person per mile driving. The difference is that we don't do holidays where we drive 3000 miles and then 3000 miles back in a week long holiday.

An average trip to Europe or the west coast adds about 1500 pounds of CO2. Driving for a year might add 4500, so you're adding a third on every time you travel. If you do three trips you have almost doubled your transportation footprint!

It's become a part of our everyday life.
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Re: Tourists are Killing the Planet

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Tue 01 Oct 2019, 13:32:17

The difference is that we don't do holidays where we drive 3000 miles and then 3000 miles back in a week long holiday.

An average trip to Europe or the west coast adds about 1500 pounds of CO2. Driving for a year might add 4500, so you're adding a third on every time you travel. If you do three trips you have almost doubled your transportation footprint!


you are missing the point. We were talking about people who wanted to take trips for vacation on weekends (which is what the attraction of flights from Lutton and Standsted on Easyjet, Ryan and a few other jets is).
Each of those small jets can carry in excess of 200 passengers so if you fill the plane with couples who would otherwise travel by car to similar distant destinations we are talking 100 cars. You can't compare per person on a flight versus per person in a car, it doesn't work that way.

The complication that I didn't add in is if those folks still wanted to go to Europe and drive some of the distance needs a different calculation as they stuff a number of cars into the Chunnel train system. But again most people arent' going to take a whole lot of trips by car to Europe, certainly not every couple of weekends simply due to time constraints. You can fly in an hour or so to destinations that would take you a half day or more by car. If you only have 3 days to spend it makes a big difference. This is why these regional airlines are so popular.
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Re: Tourists are Killing the Planet

Unread postby clif » Tue 01 Oct 2019, 18:51:59

Did the article say anything about private flights? No it did not.

Nor did it say anything abouty <i>commercial </i> flights,

being disingenuous as usual

lots of hand waving to try to bury the lead;

1% of people take 20% of International (commercial and private combined) flights......
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Re: Tourists are Killing the Planet

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Tue 01 Oct 2019, 19:55:01

Nor did it say anything abouty <i>commercial </i> flights,

being disingenuous as usual


doesn't have to as the only change has been the number of regional carriers with cheaper and cheaper flights. Business flights have no reason to have increased that much in a short time, nor would flights by people who own private jets. I worked for two large independants years ago, both of which owned a private jet. The exec never used it for international travel, just within the country simply because it was less of a hassle flying first class and setting up a Mr Fixit to shepard you through customs. But please, as I said show us your proof and reasoning. Your reasoning was that somehow "international" flights meant "private jet" flights. You would have serious problems at an airport if you had to figure out the big boards I'm afraid. All those international flights with carriers like Lufthansa, Air Canada, American Airlines, Qatar Air etc. must be confusing:roll:

1% of people take 20% of International (commercial and private combined) flights......


WTF is your point. I already pointed out how many flights that would amount to and how the number of regional flights have increased due to low price, making 2 or 3 day vacations quite attractive for the average joe. Yet you want to conflate 1% with "the 1%" for zero reason.

Show us your proof. Should be simple, number of private jet ownership should have increased, number of private jet international flights should have increased as well. Let us know when you have the data.
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