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Tourists are Killing the Planet

Re: Tourists are Killing the Planet

Unread postby asg70 » Sat 21 Sep 2019, 23:40:23

Ibon wrote:Tourism and aviation though is a major polluting industry. It is totally discretionary and there is a major point about tourism and flying around the planet that we haven't discussed.


Some have tried, only for said attempts being misclassified as ad homs instead.

HALL OF SHAME:
-Short welched on a bet and should be shunned.
-Frequent-flyers should not cry crocodile-tears over climate-change.
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Re: Tourists are Killing the Planet

Unread postby Ibon » Sun 22 Sep 2019, 07:08:54

asg70 wrote:
Ibon wrote:Tourism and aviation though is a major polluting industry. It is totally discretionary and there is a major point about tourism and flying around the planet that we haven't discussed.


Some have tried, only for said attempts being misclassified as ad homs instead.


I was thinking about tourism and about what will be coming home to roost for many people who today jump on airplanes to travel far and wide in search of the exotic to reach remote areas where nature and organic village life is still intact. They choose to make these long pilgrimages to experience this because it represents a refreshing contrast to the urban or suburban techno world from where they come from.

People spend time an energy to go experience these exotic places and yet they fight tooth and nail to make sure that their own privileged lifestyles aren't sacrificed. Afterall, they all want to go back home after their "vacations" to their techno rich worlds which begs the question where does their loyalty really lie?

Resolving climate change actually means that your own home country has to start the process of turning away from consumption and a return to the organic lifestyle similar to the exotic places people travel far and wide to experience.

So for the young generation, the Greta generation, the way they will realize real and effective change is to practice and live and consume at home just like those far away exotic places people today go traveling to. To create at home the same conditions that lure tourists today to travel half away around the planet to experience.

The way you get that process to start is to crush the economic wealth for the middle class down to a level where flying on an airplane is just simply no longer an option, where it leaves no other option for folks but to live full and creative lives with very minimal energy expenditure. To become like those rural villages in far away and exotic places...

To bring the exotic home.
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Re: Tourists are Killing the Planet

Unread postby Newfie » Sun 22 Sep 2019, 07:28:35

I don’t know Ibon, some of us will always want to travel.

I totally get the simple mathematics that requires us to lighten our load in Earth. And that requires our Western financial system to pretty much go away. Not at all debating that. The effect may well be that we pretty much kill all tourism. However I do think it serves a purpose and we will miss it.

I’m reminded of a small remote village on the South coast here in Newfoundland. Francois has about 200 people, zero cars, no roads but at least 100 quads and as many snowmobiles. It has one return ferry trip a day, takes the kids to school and back and allows shopping trips, drs. visits and the like. Go up the adjacent fjord and you will find little seasonal cabins where folks go to get away.
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Re: Tourists are Killing the Planet

Unread postby Ibon » Sun 22 Sep 2019, 10:36:56

Newfie wrote:I don’t know Ibon, some of us will always want to travel.

I totally get the simple mathematics that requires us to lighten our load in Earth. And that requires our Western financial system to pretty much go away. Not at all debating that. The effect may well be that we pretty much kill all tourism. However I do think it serves a purpose and we will miss it.

I’m reminded of a small remote village on the South coast here in Newfoundland. Francois has about 200 people, zero cars, no roads but at least 100 quads and as many snowmobiles. It has one return ferry trip a day, takes the kids to school and back and allows shopping trips, drs. visits and the like. Go up the adjacent fjord and you will find little seasonal cabins where folks go to get away.


There are home bodies and there will always be the adventurous who wander far and wide. The wonderful thing about doing this in a future powered down world is that travel will once again return to what is was in the 19th century and first half of the 20th century, no longer mass tourism of decadent consumption, maybe you sleep out on the deck of a cargo ship, take funky public buses to remote locations, sleep in local huts, all that good stuff I did 40 years ago when I left for mexico for a year and maybe my parents and siblings got two post cards during that time, no internet, etc.

Tourism today is so well organized and such a huge industry that travelers get pissed off and outraged when planes dont arrive on time, when rivers take down bridges and they get stuck on the road and don't arrive on time to the boutique hotel they reserved, when the poor peasants block highways protesting some hydro electric project flooding their village, when they return to the kitchen their fucking fried eggs because they ordered them hard and what they got was runny.......

You know what I mean?
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Re: Tourists are Killing the Planet

Unread postby Plantagenet » Sun 22 Sep 2019, 11:25:15

Ibon wrote:
There are home bodies and there will always be the adventurous who wander far and wide. The wonderful thing about doing this in a future powered down world is that travel will once again return to what is was in the 19th century and first half of the 20th century, no longer mass tourism of decadent consumption, maybe you sleep out on the deck of a cargo ship, take funky public buses to remote locations, sleep in local huts...etc.

Tourism today is so well organized and such a huge industry that travelers get pissed off and outraged when planes dont arrive on time, when rivers take down bridges and they get stuck on the road and don't arrive on time to the boutique hotel they reserved, when the poor peasants block highways protesting some hydro electric project flooding their village, when they return to the kitchen their fucking fried eggs because they ordered them hard and what they got was runny.......

You know what I mean?


I know just what you mean, and I agree with you 100% Modern mass tourism is an abomination and the arrival of millions of newly wealthy Chinese on the mass tourism market has made mass tourism grow very rapidly in the last few years, making it even more abominable.

But its still possible for individual travelers to have the same kind of 19th century-style travel adventures today. For instance, when I travelled the Camino de Santiago across Spain by bicycle there were many many other people traveling the pilgrimage route on foot or by bicycle, having a very local and very wonderful non-motorized travel experience. And my two recent trips by train across India a couple of years ago and around Zimbabwe by train and bus in August were probably rather similar to your travels in Mexico back in the 20th century, although without the gastrointestinal diseases.

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Re: Tourists are Killing the Planet

Unread postby asg70 » Sun 22 Sep 2019, 12:28:48

Plantagenet wrote:But its still possible for individual travelers to have the same kind of 19th century-style travel adventures today. For instance, when I travelled the Camino de Santiago across Spain by bicycle


Come on, man. You had to fly from Alaska to Spain before you could jump on a bike. Seriously. You should stay clear of this debate if you can't get beyond your blind-spots.

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Re: Tourists are Killing the Planet

Unread postby Ibon » Sun 22 Sep 2019, 14:24:08

I think this current inquiry should really focus on how the emerging generation can make their local place have some of the same attributes like that New Foundland Village Newfie mentioned so that the need to jump on airplanes to find exotic places around the world starts to recede since you actually create a big part of this in your own back yard. Economic contraction will impose this orientation anyway soon enough.

A large percentage of tourists today jump on airplanes as much to go somewhere as to get away from where they are for reasons of feeling compromised. At the end of the day their loyalty really lies with this consumerist society because let's face it, where do they end up after their exotic long distance airplane rides? Back at home and back in their compromised lives. Their loyalty lies with the very life they recognize as being deficient. They are not cultivating in their local communities the attributes of the places they travel to. No and I am not just talking about Europeans and North Americans. Plant mentioned something that cannot be emphasized enough. Several hundred million Chinese living compromised lives in polluted Chinese cities working 60 hour work weeks now have enough disposable cash to join the throngs of global casual tourism and every country on the planet that is developing their tourism is focused on this huge emerging market. It is not a potential market. Planes are already full of Chinese tourists.

This type of tourism is a symptom of being disconnected. This relationship between having enough cash to fly on holiday and feeling compromised with your life is a hallmark of this consumer paradigm. Consumption becomes compensation for a life not fulfilled. And yes every time you purchase that airplane ticket you are priming that wealth pump that makes consumer society more robust and makes the elite wealthy even more so. Deciding not to participate in this and not fly and feed this consumer monster is the most radical move you can make. Greta is making this point.

Or if you are a jaded baby boomer with still some disposable cash you can just decide to do it anyway because if you don't fill that empty seat you know some new and hungry Chinese tourist will.

Isn't that the case Plant?

What would Greta say?
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Re: Tourists are Killing the Planet

Unread postby dohboi » Sun 22 Sep 2019, 15:32:57

Planes are already full of Chinese tourists.


4 just died on a bus in Utah. The headline struck me when I read it...it seems an odd place for Chinese tourists to be. But as Ibon notes, everyone's promoting their own little neck of the woods to this emerging market.
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Re: Tourists are Killing the Planet

Unread postby Ibon » Sun 22 Sep 2019, 15:54:08

Plantagenet wrote:
But its still possible for individual travelers to have the same kind of 19th century-style travel adventures today.


Yes granted there are a few intrepid travelers whose combined carbon footprint is a small tiny percentage of total airline use by tourists but nobody is exonerated. Not now when we have taken the climate to such a precarious place.

With each passing year the amount of discretionary energy usage weighs heavier on the conscious.

I just flew up to the USA from Panama yesterday. We are closing on our last property here in Florida. I thought about the carbon the plane was spewing yesterday. I was able justifying flying but it weighed a bit on my conscious.

If you salute what Greta is doing than the best way you honor her is to take into your conscious your energy consumption, every time you fly. That does not mean a complete 100% moratorium on all flying but it certainly should make you think twice about how many trips you are planning up ahead and which ones you can forsake for the good of the planet.

What this all represents is internalizing the burden we are collectively having on the planet and taking personal responsibility. That still leaves some room for some travel and for some celebration of our planets rich cultural heritage and natural history but let's face it, we own it to our mother earth to rein it in. Otherwise we are really just big fat hypocrites and Greta's generation will call us out accordingly.

I enjoy actually passing the gauntlet of integrity over to a younger generation because frankly my own generation is simply too full of hypocrisy to have the humility to start internalizing this problem. The younger emerging generation are internalizing this more and as I have said many times I salute them. They know they have to do this as time is running short. We didn't because we could get away with it.

Shame on us.
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Re: Tourists are Killing the Planet

Unread postby dohboi » Sun 22 Sep 2019, 16:31:57

Nicely put, as usual
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Re: Tourists are Killing the Planet

Unread postby Plantagenet » Sun 22 Sep 2019, 17:13:31

Ibon wrote:I just flew up to the USA from Panama yesterday..... forsake [trips] for the good of the planet.


Yes, I totally agree. Everyone should forsake trips for the sake of the planet, including you.

And everyone should stop buying flash clothes and new cars and dining out at over-priced restaurants and staying in remote eco-lodges in places like Panama or in posh hotels in Europe and Asia and New York.

And auto-racing should be banned. So should cruising for burgers.

Fracking should be banned because it emits methane.

Coal and natural gas power plants should be banned.

And everyone should stop hooking up to the electrical grid because the buildout of renewable energy, like solar and wind, is contributing the rapid growth of SF6 in the atmosphere, the strongest greenhouse gas known to man.

And no one should post on the internet because the internet uses a lot of power and produces a lot of CO2.

But none of that seems to be happening. Everyone is more then willing to point the finger at someone else, but people en masse are unwilling to take responsibility for their own carbon emissions. Its just isn't happening, as your own story indicates.

Even someone as eco-conscious as yourself just did a long plane flight and released a lot of CO2. Sure there was some guilt, but the bottom line is you did the long plane trip. And so did 2.8 million other people that day, because thats the number of people who fly in the US every day...and thats just in the US alone. Altogether there are over a billion separate flights per year around the world, and the number is growing rapidly.

air_traffic/by_the_numbers/

Thats why a single person who is guilty about flying but then flies anyway as you did doesn't make a farthings worth of difference to CO2 emissions. And if you run the math, your plane flight had an utterly insignificant impact on global climate change. It is only the aggregate of millions and billions of flights that is significant in impacting the climate.

Logically, the only thing that will make a difference on a global basis is a binding global climate treaty that mandates CO2 reductions on everyone and everything.....and thats why Greta will be at the UN tomorrow trying to get the world's leaders to amend the Paris Accords or draft a new global climate treaty that will actually do some good.

Cheers!
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Re: Tourists are Killing the Planet

Unread postby Ibon » Sun 22 Sep 2019, 17:33:21

Plantagenet wrote:The only thing that will make a difference is a binding global climate treaty that mandates CO2 reductions.....and thats why Greta will be at the UN tomorrow trying to get them to amend the Paris Accords or draft a new global climate treaty that will actually do some good.

Cheers!


Well on the Greta thread you just posted:

Plantagenet wrote: It will be interesting to see what she decides to do next if the UN fails to act at their meeting (and since the UN has a 30 year long history of failing to act, almost certainly they will fail again)



So you say a UN agreement is the only thing that will work at the same time as you say that it will surely fail.

Interesting. That puts you right there in the sweet spot of being able to blame Obama or the UN or any other government entity while your conscious is clean to conveniently plan your next trip.

You might be fooling yourself. But some of us have nailed your ass and you can come back with whatever bullshit you want but sorry, your credibility is ZILCH..
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Re: Tourists are Killing the Planet

Unread postby Newfie » Sun 22 Sep 2019, 17:37:58

Ibon wrote:

“You know what I mean?”

EXACTLY. People say they have been to the Caribbean but all the islands are alike, nothing but pushy jewelry stores. Yeah, in the tourist trap zone extending 5 blocks around the cruise ship harbor. They don’t see the places we go. Like you said, leaving space for us.

And another point, many/most tourist leave their consumerland of choice only to go to another consumerland just in a different country or state. Staying with the Caribbean as the example I know, folks leave home, land of the shopping mall and go to the Caribbean, to a shopping district where they can buy presumably duty free stuff. They see nothing and know nothing of the place they are visiting. 10 hours in port and then back to the ship and on to the next port to do over.

As to being hypocrits and who is the biggest we should all shut up for a while. Each one of us here is connected to the larger culture we live in. If we were true to ourselves we would all end up a bunch of Unabombers. We don’t because we don’t want to personally be that person. But that means we live in and are part of this culture. We each do our own thing and try to do our own personal best within the cultural confines.

We seem to be picking in flying. But think about just living in a temperate zone, say Wisconsin. There you need to heat your house all winter long and probably a whole lot of folks run the AC all summer long. I’ll bet that contributes more to warming than a trans-Atlantic flight. Let’s do math - NYC to Paris: 8,000 mile flight @ 100 mpg would be 80 gallons (very roughly). What does it take to heat a house for the season?

So should we condemn everyone who has a heater in their home? No, but we need to adapt to have far smaller populations in these energy intensive regions. It always escapes me why this simple fact is never discussed. Except it would bring home the level of the problem in an intractable way.

Let’s not turn these discussions into a circular firing squad, there are far bigger issues that need to be addressed and petty squabbling just gets in the way.
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Re: Tourists are Killing the Planet

Unread postby Plantagenet » Sun 22 Sep 2019, 18:14:36

Ibon wrote: you say a UN agreement is the only thing that will work at the same time as you say that it will surely fail.


I think its important to face reality, no matter how difficult that is.

Ibon wrote:I That puts you right there in the sweet spot of being able to blame Obama or the UN or any other government entity while your conscious is clean to conveniently plan your next trip.


First of all, my "conscious" isn't clean as you fantasize. Just like you, I have eco-guilt over flying. And just like you I sometimes go on plane trips. I really don't see how you imagine that its OK for you to fly, but not other people. And the vast majority of the visitors to your eco-ledge fly thousands of miles to get there, so you are personally and directly profiting from the plane trips taken by the guests to your eco lodge. Lets try to be logical here....we are all emitting too much CO2. That means me.....and you......and everyone else in the western world.

Now as far as Obama goes, he certainly deserves a big share of the blame for derailing the binding global change treaty that was supposed to be signed by the world's leaders who had assembled for that purpose at the Copenhagen COP meeting. Then, Obama and the US delegation played a lead role in redirecting the UNFCC away from crafting treaties designed to reduce CO2 emissions to instead crafting the Paris accords that mandated INCREASES in CO2 emissions. And thats what we've seen since then...year after year of INCREASING CO2 EMISSIONS.

Again, I think we need to face reality here. The Paris accords was a step backward. Obama and the other world leaders produced a phony climate treaty that doesn't actually reduce Greenhouse emissions. Instead of taking the next step and pushing for a treaty that required reducing global CO2 emissions the Paris Accords is a repeat of the Kyoto Accords, filled with mere suggestions that have no binding effects---its essentially an exact repeat of the same mistake the UN made with the Kyoto Accords.

Ibon wrote: ...ass ....bullshit..


Your potty mouth is overflowing. Please flush.

CHEERS!
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Re: Tourists are Killing the Planet

Unread postby Ibon » Sun 22 Sep 2019, 18:18:23

Plantagenet wrote: Just like you, I have eco-guilt over flying.


Thank you! You finally threw us a bone. Good work.
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Re: Tourists are Killing the Planet

Unread postby Plantagenet » Sun 22 Sep 2019, 18:23:23

Ibon wrote:
Plantagenet wrote: Just like you, I have eco-guilt over flying.


Thank you! You finally threw us a bone. Good work.


Thank you. I've said the same thing in dozens of previous posts but I'm glad you finally got it.

Again, my position is that we all emit too much CO2.

Personally, I think its a total waste of time for posters here to be pointing the finger at each other over plane flights or other things that emit CO2, since we all fly on planes or do other things that emit CO2, and we all emit too much CO2.

Cheers!
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Re: Tourists are Killing the Planet

Unread postby Ibon » Sun 22 Sep 2019, 18:29:35

Plantagenet wrote:
Ibon wrote:
Plantagenet wrote: Just like you, I have eco-guilt over flying.


Thank you! You finally threw us a bone. Good work.


Thank you. I've said the same thing in dozens of previous posts but I'm glad you finally got it.

Again, my position is that we all emit too much CO2.

Personally, I think its a total waste of time for posters here to be pointing the finger at each other over plane flights or other things that emit CO2, since we all fly on planes or do other things that emit CO2, and we all emit too much CO2.

Cheers!


I reach across the digital landscape Plant all the way up there to Alaska and extend to you my hand. Truce.
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Re: Tourists are Killing the Planet

Unread postby Ibon » Sun 22 Sep 2019, 18:31:59

Newfie wrote:
So should we condemn everyone who has a heater in their home? No, but we need to adapt to have far smaller populations in these energy intensive regions. It always escapes me why this simple fact is never discussed. Except it would bring home the level of the problem in an intractable way.



I think a bit of humility where every one owns their shit is a great starting point and sometimes you come up against that resistance and you have to call it out. Because that is actually part of the bigger picture, a population of humans blaming others, unable to own their shit, rationalizing their way to oblivion. So this exercise is not just myopic.

Anyway, I just extended my hand of truce to Plant... This might be a bit more of a challenge for ASG, let's see. haha

I think population trends if immigration is well regulated will mid term solve the issue of population. Fertility rate decline is a total surprise defying the worst forecasts predicted 40 years ago. Actually, an orderly decline in population is necessary if we want to avoid too much disruption because of demographics, keeping social security solvent, etc. Of course the little unabomber in all of us wishes for a faster population reduction but alas we are morally constrained.

Oh, and since we don't heat the lodge or the rooms at Mount Totumas that means I can fly more. Awesome...... Ha ha ,,,,,, just a little black humor at the end of this post.
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Re: Tourists are Killing the Planet

Unread postby dohboi » Sun 22 Sep 2019, 21:04:14

If we put severe limits on income and wealth, people wouldn't have the extra scratch to do much flying or other non-essential hyper-consumer activities. Here are some ideas along those lines:

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10 ... 9.1633734#

open access. read all about it.

some discussion at

http://crookedtimber.org/2019/09/21/the ... discourse/

Monbiot chimes in:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... tal-damage

And of course part of our denial is to make false equivalence fallacies and whataboutisms and other bs...all to be expected, but let us try to rise above them here, if possible.
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Re: Tourists are Killing the Planet

Unread postby asg70 » Mon 23 Sep 2019, 11:01:00

Plantagenet wrote:And no one should post on the internet because the internet uses a lot of power and produces a lot of CO2.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum

Plantagenet wrote:Thats why a single person who is guilty about flying but then flies anyway as you did doesn't make a farthings worth of difference to CO2 emissions.


Hmm... Where have I seen that logic before?

Plantagenet wrote:Logically, the only thing that will make a difference on a global basis is a binding global climate treaty that mandates CO2 reductions on everyone


Which will be meaningless if it doesn't curtail people's freedom to fly as frequently as you do. So the end result is the same. Be ready to powerdown, out of the goodness of your heart or by the point of a spear held by said treaties.

Ibon wrote:
Plantagenet wrote: Just like you, I have eco-guilt over flying.

Thank you! You finally threw us a bone. Good work.


If Plant feels so bad, why is he still flying? It's not for business, right? So why? It's like an addict who can't stop. None of us can change the past, but you can at least make a change today for the sake of the future.

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-Short welched on a bet and should be shunned.
-Frequent-flyers should not cry crocodile-tears over climate-change.
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