Donate Bitcoin

Donate Paypal


PeakOil is You

PeakOil is You

Tourists are Killing the Planet

Re: Tourists are Killing the Planet

Unread postby onlooker » Sat 25 May 2019, 01:56:56

" there are 7.7+ Billion people on this Earth" currently living. And roughly 1/5 are "greedy and careless bastards". That IS the reality. As opposed to what ifs and hypotheticals. And these rich world consumers are doing on a per capita basis much more damage to the planet with the manner in which they live and consume than the hordes of people in all the other countries. This is a fact. So yes overpopulation is a huge problem but in no way exonerates rich world denizens. So, a few here do not wish to it seems accept this FACT.
"We are mortal beings doomed to die
User avatar
onlooker
Fission
Fission
 
Posts: 10510
Joined: Sun 10 Nov 2013, 12:49:04
Location: NY, USA

Re: Tourists are Killing the Planet

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Sat 25 May 2019, 06:17:54

You know what, you and I both live in the single large country that cares the most about the environment. Compare the USA's environmental record to China or India. The other countries that care are all a lot smaller, including Canada and a few "Scandahoovian" countries.
KaiserJeep 2.0, Neural Subnode 0010 0000 0001 0110 - 1001 0011 0011, Tertiary Adjunct to Unimatrix 0000 0000 0001

Resistance is Futile, YOU will be Assimilated.

Warning: Messages timestamped before April 1, 2016, 06:00 PST were posted by the unmodified human KaiserJeep 1.0
KaiserJeep
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 6094
Joined: Tue 06 Aug 2013, 16:16:32
Location: Wisconsin's Dreamland

Re: Tourists are Killing the Planet

Unread postby Cottager » Sat 25 May 2019, 07:20:08

This idea is good for low carbon traveling
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZiejAhol4Ps
Small bicycle camper. It is possible to make even better installing solar panels above and getting an electric bicycle. Something similar to this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yepY5Krhbtg
So just install flexible solar panels on top of option 1, attach electric bicycle, and you're ready for long zero carbon travels without much physical effort (so you're not tired, as with simple bicycle). I would also install several (bicycle) lithium batteries inside the camper to become truly civilized and some backup energy, sure, also usb port (who can live without nowadays?). In the worst case one can use pedals as well. Yeah, I know, producing those panels and bicycles emits carbon, but much less, than producing those giant bins called cars. 20 sq.ft. of solar panels is enough to move such thing constantly, to move car one would need a several magnitudes larger area (sure impractical).
Cottager
Peat
Peat
 
Posts: 54
Joined: Fri 17 Feb 2012, 12:13:19
Location: Outer space

Re: Tourists are Killing the Planet

Unread postby dohboi » Sat 25 May 2019, 07:34:50

Cool, Cottager!

OL wrote: "... roughly 1/5 are "greedy and careless bastards".

That IS the reality.

As opposed to what ifs and hypotheticals.

And these rich world consumers are doing on a per capita basis much more damage to the planet with the manner in which they live and consume than the hordes of people in all the other countries. This is a fact.

So yes overpopulation is a huge problem but in no way exonerates rich world denizens. So, a few here do not wish to it seems accept this FACT.'

exactly
User avatar
dohboi
Harmless Drudge
Harmless Drudge
 
Posts: 18450
Joined: Mon 05 Dec 2005, 03:00:00

Re: Tourists are Killing the Planet

Unread postby dohboi » Sat 25 May 2019, 07:37:20

Over the last ~50 years, the US emitted more CO2 than China or any other country on the planet...sooo...not so 'caring' about the environment... :cry:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... ountry.svg
User avatar
dohboi
Harmless Drudge
Harmless Drudge
 
Posts: 18450
Joined: Mon 05 Dec 2005, 03:00:00

Re: Tourists are Killing the Planet

Unread postby Plantagenet » Sat 25 May 2019, 10:01:48

onlooker wrote:" there are 7.7+ Billion people on this Earth" currently living. And roughly 1/5 are "greedy and careless bastards". .


Thats why we have laws and regulations.

Its up to the 4/5 who are noble and pure and care about the environment to elect politicians who are noble and pure and care about the environment who will in turn pass laws and enact regulations that will make the 1/5 who greedy and careless bastards stop doing all those reprehensible acts that make us think they are greedy and careless.

Unfortunately, even the noble and pure 4/5 have been carelesss themselves about creating a society that places the correct price on carbon and stops pumping CO2 into the atmosphere, and the result of that carelessness is the mess we find ourselves in today.

CHEERS!
hall of shame
People who buy new cars and then cry crocodile tears over climate change. The manufacture of a typical new car emits ca. 16 tons of CO2 and a new EV is actually much worse since the battery also has to be manufactured, resulting in a total carbon footprint of ca. 30 tons of CO2
User avatar
Plantagenet
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 22658
Joined: Mon 09 Apr 2007, 02:00:00
Location: Alaska (its much bigger than Texas).

Re: Tourists are Killing the Planet

Unread postby Tanada » Sat 25 May 2019, 10:43:44

onlooker wrote:" There are 7.7+ Billion people on this Earth" currently living. And roughly 1/5 are "greedy and careless bastards".


Let me stop you right there. It is more like 95/100 humans are greedy and careless but only 1/5 is wealthy enough that you personally notice their bad behavior.

The number of people out of any group who would live an ascetic lifestyle given any other choice is very very small. Until you understand that you will never understand why the 'poor' nations of the world are so eagerly building fossil fuel burning power stations just as rapidly as they an manage.

Heck I know YOU don't live an ascetic lifestyle yourself, obviously you have electricity and internet access or you would not be posting here yourself :twisted:
I should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, design a building, write, balance accounts, build a wall, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, pitch manure, program a computer, cook, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
User avatar
Tanada
Site Admin
Site Admin
 
Posts: 15509
Joined: Thu 28 Apr 2005, 02:00:00
Location: South West shore Lake Erie, OH, USA

Re: Tourists are Killing the Planet

Unread postby onlooker » Sat 25 May 2019, 11:11:49

Tanada wrote:
onlooker wrote:" There are 7.7+ Billion people on this Earth" currently living. And roughly 1/5 are "greedy and careless bastards".


Let me stop you right there. It is more like 95/100 humans are greedy and careless but only 1/5 is wealthy enough that you personally notice their bad behavior.

The number of people out of any group who would live an ascetic lifestyle given any other choice is very very small. Until you understand that you will never understand why the 'poor' nations of the world are so eagerly building fossil fuel burning power stations just as rapidly as they an manage.

Heck I know YOU don't live an ascetic lifestyle yourself, obviously you have electricity and internet access or you would not be posting here yourself :twisted:

Again, why do we need to introduce the what ifs. I agree with your assertion. So, then we agree, greed is a major factor in our unsustainable trajectory. And these 1/5 of our world population are encased in a system that both requires and encourages wanton consumerism and waste production via pernicious technology. So no judgement as I agree greed/status attainment and material satisfaction is in our nature. Just stating the reality as currently exists. Chinese and Indians are proving you right T.
"We are mortal beings doomed to die
User avatar
onlooker
Fission
Fission
 
Posts: 10510
Joined: Sun 10 Nov 2013, 12:49:04
Location: NY, USA

Re: Tourists are Killing the Planet

Unread postby Ibon » Sat 25 May 2019, 11:23:43

Tanada wrote:
onlooker wrote:" There are 7.7+ Billion people on this Earth" currently living. And roughly 1/5 are "greedy and careless bastards".


Let me stop you right there. It is more like 95/100 humans are greedy and careless but only 1/5 is wealthy enough that you personally notice their bad behavior.

The number of people out of any group who would live an ascetic lifestyle given any other choice is very very small. Until you understand that you will never understand why the 'poor' nations of the world are so eagerly building fossil fuel burning power stations just as rapidly as they an manage.

Heck I know YOU don't live an ascetic lifestyle yourself, obviously you have electricity and internet access or you would not be posting here yourself :twisted:


As I was wandering the globe with a back pack and hanging with the locals in rural communities all around the planet I came to cherish the generosity of humble poor people who would open their homes and share a meal without asking for anything in return. This creed you find all over the developing world has an important caveat. Their generosity comes from being poor, their aspirations are no different then our own.

Take 1000 rural poor generous souls and give them wealth and within a single generation you will 95% chasing materialism with the same gusto as any suburbanite in the developed world. Only a small percentage will keep ascetic humble aspirations. The vast majority of humans regardless of race, creed, religion, culture, language etc. all aspire for high levels of material consumption.

My wifes rural village in the Philippines has become a ghost town, only the very old live their and the grandchildren that were passed off to the elders from children who all aspired to go live in Manila or work over seas. I knew my wifes rural community in 1986 before roads and electricity arrived, when water buffalo moved carts through the bucolic rice fields interspersed with thatch roof and bamboo homes. It was idyllic to say the least and I fell in love with my wifes culture as much as with her.

Electricity and roads followed, television and all the rest, but most glaring today is the fact that none of the young generation live their anymore,, they almost all went to Manila or overseas to work. One of my wifes nephews continues in the old way, making hand made crab traps using bamboo and grasses, planting eggplant, rice and peanuts, Chickens running around, a water buffalo, a pig.. Their home still on stilts with thatch.

The children who went to the ME and Europe to work send back money and now the village is full of cement block homes as the over seas remmitances are used to "modernize" the village where nobody lives anymore.

This is the sad reality. Let's face it, it is global in developing countries.

None of my construction workers here in Panama who cut timber with a chain saw and helped us build our cabins, none of them have children following this rural mountain culture of extracting resources from the forests and knowing all the species of wood and their uses. None of them have children who are following their traditions. They are now in their late 40's and early 50's, their backs thrown out from working maniual labor for decades. If I started today in 2019 the same project here that I started 10 years ago i would not be able to find a team to build our cabins in such a remote location. I did not know in 2008 that the team we put together was the last generation still in their prime able to do the physical labor that we did building out the infrastructure here.

In 10 years I watched a generation age and none following.

There is nothing inherently noble about poor people. The noble generosity they exhibit is 100% a product of their poverty. Give them wealth and the vast majority will chase wealth and superficial consumerism.
Our resiliency resembles an invasive weed. We are the Kudzu Ape
blog: http://blog.mounttotumas.com/
website: http://www.mounttotumas.com
User avatar
Ibon
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 7460
Joined: Fri 03 Dec 2004, 03:00:00
Location: Volcan, Panama

Re: Tourists are Killing the Planet

Unread postby Ibon » Sat 25 May 2019, 11:29:48

Whatever the lower and middle class represent as a percentage they are in aggregate the most egregious consumers on the planet. Most of the 1% or 5% keep most of their wealth in fake digital portfolios, they are not actually spending their billions on stuff.
Our resiliency resembles an invasive weed. We are the Kudzu Ape
blog: http://blog.mounttotumas.com/
website: http://www.mounttotumas.com
User avatar
Ibon
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 7460
Joined: Fri 03 Dec 2004, 03:00:00
Location: Volcan, Panama

Re: Tourists are Killing the Planet

Unread postby Newfie » Sat 25 May 2019, 12:14:47

OL,

Just reiterate what has been said above, if you do truly believe we are all alike then it becomes a mater of situational ethics. Were the top 1/5th magically killed off they would be instantly replaced by by the next 1/5. And so on until we got to the bottom 1/5th who would then have enough resources. (Not really but trying to make one argument at a time.). We are all alike and have similar dreams. We are all greedy.

Essentially theses “XXX are killing the Planet” arguments are familiar turf, all we have to do is kill off this or that segment of the population and everything will be fine: be it elites, tourists, meat eaters, Republicans, Democrats, immigrants, blacks, whites or Jews.

If you think tourism is a bad thing to do then make that argument. If you think that wealth redistribution would solve climate change then make that argument. If you think everyone becoming vegetarian would save the planet then make that argument.

I will and do make the argument that a sustainable population living a sufficiently energy rich lifestyle to retain and advance our knowledge is on the order of 1 billion.
User avatar
Newfie
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator
 
Posts: 13061
Joined: Thu 15 Nov 2007, 03:00:00
Location: Between Canada and Carribean

Re: Tourists are Killing the Planet

Unread postby Newfie » Sat 25 May 2019, 12:23:40

Ibon wrote:Whatever the lower and middle class represent as a percentage they are in aggregate the most egregious consumers on the planet. Most of the 1% or 5% keep most of their wealth in fake digital portfolios, they are not actually spending their billions on stuff.


This^! 1+

Completely true.
User avatar
Newfie
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator
 
Posts: 13061
Joined: Thu 15 Nov 2007, 03:00:00
Location: Between Canada and Carribean

Re: Tourists are Killing the Planet

Unread postby onlooker » Sat 25 May 2019, 12:46:08

Again agreeing with the premise that we would ALL most likely act in similar ways. And not judging the 1/5. Just stating how it all has been unfolding. Which always gets us back to the best insight that I have encounteted courtesy of Ibon. Only consequences can "solve" our predicament as a species. And we can rest assured they are coming. Then those consequences hopefully will sear so deeply into us, that the survivors will have a change of consciousness that will help steer their behavior to more mutually beneficial ways for themselves and the planet
"We are mortal beings doomed to die
User avatar
onlooker
Fission
Fission
 
Posts: 10510
Joined: Sun 10 Nov 2013, 12:49:04
Location: NY, USA

Re: Tourists are Killing the Planet

Unread postby jedrider » Sat 25 May 2019, 13:05:32

Got back from my trip to France. Covered a lot of ground, so it was not exactly a restful trip.

Beautiful country. Even more beautiful people.

I visited Lille, Bruge (Belgium), Epernay (Champagne), London, Avignon, Arles, Aix, Marseille, Paris, in that order.

Really enjoyed it.
User avatar
jedrider
Heavy Crude
Heavy Crude
 
Posts: 1461
Joined: Thu 28 May 2009, 09:10:44

Re: Tourists are Killing the Planet

Unread postby onlooker » Sat 25 May 2019, 13:12:22

jedrider wrote:Got back from my trip to France. Covered a lot of ground, so it was not exactly a restful trip.

Beautiful country. Even more beautiful people.

I visited Lille, Bruge (Belgium), Epernay (Champagne), London, Avignon, Arles, Aix, Marseille, Paris, in that order.

Really enjoyed it.

Vie merveilleuse
"We are mortal beings doomed to die
User avatar
onlooker
Fission
Fission
 
Posts: 10510
Joined: Sun 10 Nov 2013, 12:49:04
Location: NY, USA

Re: Tourists are Killing the Planet

Unread postby dohboi » Sat 25 May 2019, 13:18:56

jed, you planet killer!! :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :-D :-D :-D

Most of the people I know take these kind of trips or would like to, so I would have to be pretty much mad all the time at everyone. Luckily, on the web, I can say what I really think and just piss off you bunch of lovable anonymous a-holes!! :lol: :lol: :lol:

Ibon follows a beautiful reflection on culture and loss from personal experience with a completely unsupported claim pretty much contradicted by every actual bit of data ever collected on the issue.

Too bad.

First, the super rich consume at such a rate that it is pretty much beyond most of our imaginations. I can go into that more if you like, but just to point out, people's arguments from incredulity are, of course, fallacious. https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Argument_from_incredulity

Second, billions of dollars 'sitting' in banks and investments of various sorts are not, of course, just 'sitting' there. They are mostly fueling and promoting the very devastations that we bemoan so frequently here.

A moments thought should have made both of these things clear to any school child.

But then, thinking is hard work, and a moment of such hard work for some can seem such a very long time! :-D :-D
User avatar
dohboi
Harmless Drudge
Harmless Drudge
 
Posts: 18450
Joined: Mon 05 Dec 2005, 03:00:00

Re: Tourists are Killing the Planet

Unread postby Ibon » Sat 25 May 2019, 13:25:40

dohboi wrote:
Second, billions of dollars 'sitting' in banks and investments of various sorts are not, of course, just 'sitting' there. They are mostly fueling and promoting the very devastations that we bemoan so frequently here.



The fuel of this promotion are the hundreds of millions of consumers buying the shit these elites are financing.

And you want to distinguish one side of this co dependency as being more egregious than the other side.

Carry one.
Our resiliency resembles an invasive weed. We are the Kudzu Ape
blog: http://blog.mounttotumas.com/
website: http://www.mounttotumas.com
User avatar
Ibon
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 7460
Joined: Fri 03 Dec 2004, 03:00:00
Location: Volcan, Panama

Re: Tourists are Killing the Planet

Unread postby jedrider » Sat 25 May 2019, 14:23:10

Tourism in France
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tourism_in_France
Tourism in France directly contributed 77.7 billion euros to gross domestic product, 30% of which comes from international visitors and 70% from domestic tourism spending. The total contribution of travel and tourism represents 9.7% of GDP and supports 2.9 million jobs (10.9% of employment) in the country.


Let's put it this way:

France has a low density rural population and high density city population (pulled this factoid out of my ass, but it appears that way).
France relies upon nuclear energy more than any other country (AFAIK).
France preserves it's history well (AFAIK).

Seems like an ideal post peak-oil society to me.

I didn't mention that their food is great, too. Of course, they have the benefit of ample rainfall and land very suitable to agriculture.

Agriculture in France
https://frenchfoodintheus.org/1913
Today, it employs 3.5% of the French active population. The land consolidation and the reorganization of the agriculture led to a fall in the number of farms. Today, the average size of the farms is much larger than 60 years ago (around 55 hectares).

Today, there are 490,000 farms in metropolitan France and 24,800 in the overseas regions. This represents a Utilized Agricultural Area of nearly 30 million hectares, that is to say still more than half of French territory. This Utilized Agricultural Area is divided in 3 major crops: 63% of cropland (cereal and forage crops mainly), 34% of areas under grass and 3% of perennial crops, vineyards and orchards.

France is the first agricultural power in the European Union. With an agricultural production of 61 billion euros in 2009, it produces 19% of European agricultural goods and has the largest agricultural area.
User avatar
jedrider
Heavy Crude
Heavy Crude
 
Posts: 1461
Joined: Thu 28 May 2009, 09:10:44

Re: Tourists are Killing the Planet

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Sat 25 May 2019, 14:35:56

Folks, what we are talking about is how apes behave. You get tribal ape troupes who mutually cooperate in lean times, or when in territorial disputes with other ape troupes. When all the trees are covered in ripe fruit and everybody's belly is full, the apes fight for no clear reason, and even eat each other.

Humans are only different in that our anthropologists studied all the various ape species behavior, and found that the common behaviors also exist in humans. The assertion that humans will "wise up" and behave as to conserve and preserve the habitat is fundamentally unproven and even highly suspect. There are indeed a few who can do that, personally I place that number as less than the 5% quoted above. The 95+% will always be misbehaving and damaging the world. Apes doing their thing, behaving as apes behave on the surface of a planet, until the planet is no longer a good place to live.

Yes, here comes the space pitch. Many of you probably think that I desire to get away and go there. Not true, the environment of space is a deady and hostile place that will kill a lot of people. However, those that survive will be nice, intelligent, thoughtful people. Damaging life support equipment will likely be a capital offense, and the species will evolve rapidly in the hostile environment of space. The survivors will be intelligent, careful, and will necessarily care for life support equipment very well.

Not to mention, that after the environment crash, the Earth's surface will be a ready examplle of unmanaged ape behavior, literally Hell on Earth.
KaiserJeep 2.0, Neural Subnode 0010 0000 0001 0110 - 1001 0011 0011, Tertiary Adjunct to Unimatrix 0000 0000 0001

Resistance is Futile, YOU will be Assimilated.

Warning: Messages timestamped before April 1, 2016, 06:00 PST were posted by the unmodified human KaiserJeep 1.0
KaiserJeep
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 6094
Joined: Tue 06 Aug 2013, 16:16:32
Location: Wisconsin's Dreamland

Re: Tourists are Killing the Planet

Unread postby Plantagenet » Sat 25 May 2019, 19:51:20

KaiserJeep wrote:....after the environment crash, the Earth's surface will be a ready examplle of unmanaged ape behavior, literally Hell on Earth.


Image
They made a bunch of movies about based on that idea......unmanaged ape behavior turned out to be the same as unmanaged human behavior.
hall of shame
People who buy new cars and then cry crocodile tears over climate change. The manufacture of a typical new car emits ca. 16 tons of CO2 and a new EV is actually much worse since the battery also has to be manufactured, resulting in a total carbon footprint of ca. 30 tons of CO2
User avatar
Plantagenet
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 22658
Joined: Mon 09 Apr 2007, 02:00:00
Location: Alaska (its much bigger than Texas).

PreviousNext

Return to Environment, Weather & Climate

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests