[buster]

It doesn't seem like Castro ever did anything wrong other than to start a communist government, and we've been out to kill him for the last 4 decades. But above all else, yes, the US shouldn't get involved if a country is going to fairly vote on their leaders. I know I wouldn't appreciate it if someone messed with our elections this November.

For middle-class people in Cuba and in Venezuela, the transition has been something like the scenes in the film Dr. Zhivago, where the doc returns to his home after serving the revolution, and finds he and his family pushed out and marginalized by the people's revolution. A lot of middle class folks worked for the oil industry, of course, and that's where Chavez's new broom swept cleanest. Many competent and honest people got a bad shake.

The thousands of Cuban educators and docters that are now in Venezuela are there to raise health and education standards; Venezuea is now certified as having 0% illiteracy, and I expect that it's infant mortality rate will move from its current 30 per thousand to something closer to Cuba's 6 per thousand (same as Canada, while US has 7 in 1000).

But, whether it's intended or merely a side affect, these teachers and doctors are also "Cubanizing" Venezuela with the accepted truths of the Fidelistas.

I did some very positive coverage of Chavez, and the US attempts to subvert his government, in my own blog, and got some very direct feedback from Venezuelans with 1st-hand experience. One Mom wrote:

"Chavez decided all students would receive military training, among them the school my daughter attended. The first time the military trainer tried indoctrination, she got up and said, "I don't mind learning things, but you will not tell me what to think. I make up my own mind" and walked out, followed by her classmates. Needless to say, military education went the way of hydroponic gardens, prosperity, no more homeless children,and so many other promises made solely for effect or for electoral purposes."

There are also some egregious rights violations going on, some specified in this link.

I have great deal of respect for the ordinary people who have had their lives upended, or seen loved ones die, through the doings of Castro and Chavez. As I was a kid in Florida when Castro took over, I've known many to have legitimately and unjustly suffered greatly by his direct actions.

But, in view of the sufferings caused by the regimes that preceded them, I wouldn't say that either country is necessarily worse off. How much suffering inflicted on the middle class, how many rights violatons, how many trials and executions for "counter-revolutionaries," are justified when you see a drop like that in infant mortality?

We are talking about thousands of lives that normally end before the age of one, going on into adulthood! It is no wonder that the people of Cuba love the leader who helped stop ther children dieing. If a capitalist "free market" government in either country had ever done the same thing, then they would have the people's love as well. But no previous government ever saw fit to spend the bit of wealth required to make that happen.

[Arraitz]

But, in view of the sufferings caused by the regimes that preceded them, I wouldn't say that either country is necessarily worse off. How much suffering inflicted on the middle class, how many rights violatons, how many trials and executions for "counter-revolutionaries," are justified when you see a drop like that in infant mortality?

None. Why should that be a trade-off? I don't think this infant mortality drop (which I don't believe to be true) is a direct consequence of the human right violations, the ruin of the small and middle-scale business and industries, the violence and polarization of the country.

I can't overstate this: this is NOT a struggle between the rich and the poor, between powerful economic factors and the opressed masses. If you take a look of the people in the rallies that have been taking place in Venezuela, there are people from all classes, economic status, etc. And the same goes for the chavista side.

Well, sorry for the rant here... I guess I'm just a little nervous about the election tomorrow. I'm here in Caracas, by the way. Thanks everybody for the concern and interest in this political crisis.

[Arraitz]

One more thing,

I think the following makes a very clear case that the US took an active role in financing the opposition:

http://www.williambowles.info/guests/ned-venezuela.html

The source of that story, vheadline.com is hardly the best source of balanced information...

http://www.akamachi.com/joc/vheadline/roy_carson/

There are people who affirm that they are government-funded, I don't have proof of that. Again, it's hard to find good sources of information, given the polarization of the country and everyone involved in the crisis.

[buster]

I know of vheadline's bias, but NED's "denial" of the story actually confirms much of it. It is subject to interpretation, of course, but in my judgement it indicates US funds were used to lobby against the incumbent government.

http://www.ned.org/grants/venezuelaFacts.html

[buster]

None. Why should that be a trade-off? I don't think this infant mortality drop (which I don't believe to be true) is a direct consequence of the human right violations, the ruin of the small and middle-scale business and industries, the violence and polarization of the country.

Putting aside for the moment your doubts about the figures, I don't feel there must be a trade-off.

However, no US-installed or US-allied govenment in Latin America has yet managed to find the means to reduce infant mortality to the degree that Cuba (reportedly) has.

As to the accuracy of the figures, they are maintained by UNICEF. O really doubt that the UN could falsely rank the US below Cuba in this stat without some major objection heard from some quarter.

I'm not able to find a single web reference to anyonw who challenges these figures in themselves. There are criticisms, however, that the maternal death rate is higher, and that children from the ages of 1 to 4 also have a higher death rate (11.8 per thousand, compared to 8.8 per thousand). Even so, one should keep in mind that the proper comparison is not between the US and Cuba, but between pre-Fidel Cuba and present-day. PreCastro Cuba had 32 in 1000 infant mortality; life expectancy has expanded from preCastro 59.5 years to 75.

If you find these figures specious, please provide alternate figures or a reasoned argument against them.

I agree that good health care does not require socialism. US infant mortality and life expectancy document that.

However, in the absence of US levels of prosperity, the nations of Latin America have not fared well, even with governments that have been installed and/or apprived by the US.

There's no guarantee that Venezuela will reproduce Castro's results, but it is clear that this is Chavez's intention. Considering that Castro alone has succeeded in raising the health standard for poor Latin Americans, I don't feel qualified to criticize his choice of a model, despite my distaste for many aspects of his regime.

[smiley]

There are people who affirm that they are government-funded, I don't have proof of that. Again, it's hard to find good sources of information, given the polarization of the country and everyone involved in the crisis.

Well I've seen some references to funding of the opposition in the senate hearing on Venezuela (I'll try to provide the link soon). This funding is provided by the NED (National Endowment for Democracy) which is closely affiliated with the International Republican Institute.

http://www.ned.org/grants/venezuelaFacts.html

Although the NED claims that the funding is not politically motivated their intentions are questioned around the world. They are totally reliant on government funding and their actions seem to display a political bias.

At the moment they are heavily involved in supporting the opposition in North Korea. They are also known to support groups with questionable backgrounds such as the armed rebels in Haiti.

There also have been suspicions that they have been busy here in Europe supporting the pro-American, right-wing parties.

[buster]

While NED claims their funding of Súmate is apolitical, Súmate is definitely a rabid opposition group. Their organizers include some of the same people engaged in the 2001 coup, and NED funding both preceded and followed the coup attempt.

Giving them more money after they participated in a coup seems a pretty bald endorsement of their "fine work."

As I write, the polls in Venezuela are still open. You may not be aware, but it is illegal to release exit poll results while the poll remains open, yet Súmate leadership did announce that they would release poll results this afternoon.

Four hours ago, the UK Independent announced Chavez's defeat, based on exit polls, something no other news source has repeated.

According to some, this is the result of a Súmate "dirty trick":

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/articles.php?artno=1248

http://narcosphere.narconews.com/story/ ... 175735/064

It'll be interesting to see how closely the results tally with Súmate's figures, and whether the anti-Chavista group turns atound and says that the exit polls are "proof" that Chavez stole the election.

[buster]

Well. This should make a nervous day on Wall St:

Aug. 16 (Bloomberg) -- Venezuela extended a recall referendum on President Hugo Chavez into a second day, after a record turnout and malfunctioning ballot machines kept voters in line for as long as 10 hours.

Chavez, a 50-year-old former paratrooper who survived both a military coup and two-month strike by oil workers, said after voting yesterday that he would respect the outcome. In a televised speech, Miranda State Governor Enrique Mendoza, a leader of the opposition, urged Venezuelans to endure the wait and vote.

[aneerkoinos]

Chavez wins landslide, opposition calls fraud, oil prices drop a bit.

[tkn317071]

I'm certainly no expert on the situation in Venezuela but after watching the documentary The Revolution Will Not Be Televised, I was shocked that after the coup attempt, Chavez did not immediately jail, much less execute the instigators of the coup. Seems to me like Castro wouldn't have flinched for a second in such a situation.

Chavez seems to me to have the utmost respect for the Venezuelan Constitution and Venezuelan democracy.

[gg3]

Jimmy Carter was down there with his election-observer crew, and they reported no significant voting irregularities, i.e. it was clean.

By the way, interestingly enough, international elections observers were turned away at the US borders for the year 2000 election.

Re. not executing the coupsters, there was a similar case in Central America: Nicaragua when the Sandinistas took over. I recall very clearly hearing the news the day they declared victory, and thinking, "oh God here comes another bloodbath..." But then they declared the end of the death penalty, and when I did some follow-up research I found that they ran a fair court system and their prisons were fully open for international inspection -no torture-!, and I was amazed.

Then we have South Africa, which in my opinion set a new moral standard for the world with the "truth & reconciliation" process. The black majority leadership could have done unto the deposed white rulers what the latter had done unto them, but they didn't.

What I think the common denominator is here, is something that ultimately comes from religion rather than political ideology. The Christian social doctrine, which emphasizes the dignity of each person, and also the doctrine of following Jesus' example of forgiveness of one's enemies. These factors ran deep among the black South African leadership, as per Bishop Desmond Tutu, and in Nicaragua as per (I forgot the person's name) who was a priest or other member of the local Catholic church structure.

So I suspect, having read a few of Chavez' quotes, that at some level he's influenced by these religious factors. I have no proof of this, but it's an interesting hypothesis that should be looked into.

This doesn't guarantee that there won't be problems; i.e. any government institution is only as good as the people of whom it's composed. So I don't doubt that some of Chavez' people have done things like trying to indoctrinate school kids, or that other abuses have happened.

But we have to be ***consistent*** here (which after all is a key foundation of morality as well as Western legal systems: remember "a nation of laws not of men," and all that?). If the standard is human rights, what of the regimes in Guatemala and El Salvador, not to mention Pinochet's Chile? If the standard is respect for property, what about the expropriation of smallholders' properties by global companies with US backing?

I read an account of -can't remember which country- where the entire country's water rights were sold to some multinational. Apparently the company also somehow gained the right to come in and expropriate village wells that had been dug by peasant cooperatives at their own cost of labor and capital. With no compensation.

The whole concept of "eminent domain" (government takings of private property, and by extension, corporate takings using government power as the means) makes my blood boil furiously, and has ever since I first heard of the concept at age 11.

But as with any other moral or legal matter we have to be consistent or we're mere barbarians.

What Castro did in Cuba was basically apply American concepts of eminent domain. He nationalized stuff, and then compensated the property owners at the book value of the properties. Okay, what's fair for the American legal goose is fair for the Cuban legal gander. Only problem was, the big holders such as the fruit companies, had deliberately undervalued their properties for years in order to cheat on their taxes! So when they screamed bloody murder, it was pure hypocrisy. I have zero sympathy for that.

Agreed with Aaron, there has got to be a better way to get health care & literacy than out-and-out socialism. The whole concept of socialism bugs me because it seems like a leveling-downward, rather than a leveling-upward.

But how do you pay for teachers and doctors..?

There was a time in America when the "captains of industry" subscribed to the idea of "noblesse oblige," defined as "Benevolent, honorable behavior considered to be the responsibility of persons of high birth or rank." So you had the steel guy Carnegie building the free public library system across America, and you had Kaiser set up a health care system that lives to this day, and so on, too many examples to name.

But something changed in the 1980s. Suddenly, "greed is good" and any sense of moral obligation is out the window. Instead of "benevolent honorable behavior," the polar opposites of malevolent dishonorable behavior became somehow normalized. This to my mind is the greatest moral outrage of our time. Its direct effects have destroyed families, communities, and undermined fundamental institutions in our society.

So if we want to prove that the dull gray oppressiveness of socialism is not necessary, we have got to be willing to eschew the spoiled-baby rhetoric of the "greed is good" crowd and put some sense of responsibility back into our economic life.

[buster]

I have to differ a bit. Leftist Catholics, like the Sandinista, the Venezuelan Chavistas, and certainly the Fidelistas, tend to be more intellectual/secular, though they can still be devoutly spiritual.

Where you'll find more traditional Catholicism is among the Perons, the old ruling elite of South Vietnam, the Fulgencio Batista regime, etc.

Being a secular Catholic myself, take my word that you do not want to be subject to an interrogation at the hands of a self-righteous right-wing Catholic.

[ehv_nl]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4461946.stm

Venezuela gives US cheap oil deal Officials from Venezuela and Massachusetts have signed a deal to provide cheap heating oil to low-income homes in the US state.

The fuel will be sold at about 40% below market prices to thousands of homes over the winter months. Local congressman William Delahunt described the deal as "an expression of humanitarianism at its very best".

[Revi]

At least Chavez is doing something about the problem. LIHEAP funding is being cut, big time. It could be a long cold winter without a little help from our friends.

[Synergist]

Chavez is the first rival head of state to have figured out US public relations, it seems. His gesture will be mathematically meaningless but will get a disproportionate amount of airtime.

[crossthread]

Seems too be catching on, HUH?
Poor get extra heat bill help
State dips into emergency fund
J. Andrew Curliss, Staff Writer
The state has found more money to help its poorest residents stay warm this winter.
The Council of State, a board of the state's 10 top elected officials, agreed Tuesday to use $3.4 million in emergency money to help low-income residents with heating bills. The state's utility companies are matching that sum as part of assistance programs they offer.

It is the first time the state has used money from its contingency and emergency fund to help with utility bills, officials said. The step is allowed because Gov. Mike Easley has proclaimed a continuing state of emergency after Hurricane Katrina disrupted fuel supplies.

Easley and other state leaders say the action is necessary because natural gas and heating oil costs are expected to rise dramatically. The average home utility bill will jump by $300 to $400 over the course of the heating season, Easley's office predicted.


The money is available for people in a crisis, said Jane Schwartz, chief of economic services at the state Division of Social Services.
"Income for many people won't change, but these bills are going to be out of sight," she said.

Residents should contact their county social services office to apply for the money. The maximum available is $300 each fiscal year. But counties work to find other ways to help people who need more money, officials said.

To be eligible, a family of four must earn below $2,420 a month, a family of two must earn below $1,605 and a single person must have income below $1,197 per month.

The state has made another $3.1 million available to make some homes warmer with added insulation, window coverings and weather stripping.

The state said the combined funds will serve about 70,000 families. Schwartz said many of them are elderly.

"We don't want [the elderly] to have to decide if they should stay warm or buy their medicine," she said.

Counties should have the money within two weeks.

The $3.4 million approved Tuesday supplements roughly $9.5 million the state already provides each year to counties for heating bill help.

My comment,,, Oh wow.. It'll be depleted by Jan 1st......

[Revi]

It'll get nasty this winter. What are people going to do? They'll freeze if the oil runs out. People will all cram into small apartments, or move back in with relatives. The cost of fuel will keep going up until late in the winter.

[pana_burda]

Its a fact!.

Venezuela or better said "chavezuela" is under a very strickt exchange control. Dollars are "officially" worth Bs. 2150 for quite some time now.

The "problem" arises up when due the application of that severe control, some economic distortions do occur in the form of a "black market" ..... or better said a RED MARKET, since OIL is the main generator of hard currency for this land and that industry belongs to the "state" ..... or better said to hugo chavez.

That VERY interesting article, about that "bank", wanting/"suggesting" off to "rename" that Canadian province to "bolivarian" because of the interest of those local authorities in the protection and well being of its citizens through the protection and better administration of its MAIN resources, made me think of this conceptual ...... "paradox".

Thursday, October 04, 2007
Jueves 04 de Octubre del 2007
Bid: 5650 Ask: 5750
posted by Venezuelafx at 4:00 PM

Wednesday, October 03, 2007
Miercoles 03 de Octubre del 2007
Bid: 5450 Ask: 5550
posted by Venezuelafx at 4:00 PM

Tuesday, October 02, 2007
Martes 02 de Octubre del 2007
Bid: 5250 Ask: 5350
posted by Venezuelafx at 4:00 PM

Monday, October 01, 2007
Lunes 01 de Octubre del 2007
Bid: 5100 Ask: 5200
posted by Venezuelafx at 4:00 PM

Friday, September 28, 2007
Viernes 28 de septiembre del 2007
Bid: 4910 Ask: 5010
posted by Venezuelafx at 4:00 PM

Thursday, September 27, 2007
Jueves 27 de Septiembre del 2007
Bid: 4900 Ask: 5000
posted by Venezuelafx at 4:00 PM

Wednesday, September 26, 2007
Miercoles 26 de Septiembre del 2007
Bid: 4875 Ask: 4975
posted by Venezuelafx at 4:00 PM

http://venezuelafx.blogspot.com/

Ahh, when hugo first stepped in, by 1998, that american currency was worth "only" 500 of our still valuable coins.

Well ......, would a "protective" of its own administration, with such huge resources at hands, allow a "parallel" or red market dollar reach those ever increasing marks, without "biting the dust" out?

[dissident]

http://www.latin-focus.com/latinfocus/c ... vencpi.htm

Looks like the inflation rate (CPI and PPI) in Venezuela has improved after Chavez was elected. If not for Chavez the currency would have been 67,000:1 and not 5,000:1 (inflation around 60% per year vs. 20% per year). So you are engaging in very selective use of statistics.

[pana_burda]

If not for Chavez the currency would have been 67,000:1 and not 5,000:1

It would be very interesting to know how you reached out to that rather curious conclussion. Me, not being an economist, think in "inflation" as a non linear economic distortion. I infere, from your reasoning, you have considered it as such.

Nevertheless, for the poor people, that is, +75% of the entire population, of a country, as filthy rich as this country is, being subject to either economic burdens and pressures, I don´t quite agree we should "celebrate" the "success" you suggest of this other "administrator" and that of his wrongful policies.