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THE Thermal Depolymerization Thread (merged)

Discussions of conventional and alternative energy production technologies.

Re: thermal depolymerization a end to peak oil?

Unread postby kublikhan » Mon 05 Jan 2009, 00:59:09

TomSaidak wrote:much of the fertilizer is WASTED by putting too much of it in the soil - more then the soil can handle.
It is another symptom of how lopsided and unsustainable our agricultural practices are. The soils are becoming depleted, and we compensate by dumping loads of fertilizer on them. It is my belief that when/if we develop sustainable farming methods, we will not have billions of tons of waste that we don't know what to do with.

Much of the soil in the Great Plains is little more than a sponge into which we must pour hydrocarbon-based fertilizers in order to produce crops.


TomSaidak wrote:TDP is a pathway to energy. At 6 billion tons AG Waste, using CWT's 10% conversion (10 tons yields 1 ton of oil), you get a whopping 52% of US oil consumption.

converting the entire grain harvest of the US would only produce 16% of its auto fuel needs
Food Vs Fuel

If converting the entire US grain harvest would produce only 16% of our auto fuel needs, I am having a hard time believing that AG waste would provide 52% of the US oil consumption. You are making it sound like we have 6 billion tons of agriculture waste that gets thrown on a garbage pile and is just waiting to be turned into oil. One small problem with that. It's not. It is recycled. This is precisely the problem CWT ran into when they wanted to take the turkey guts from butterball and turn them into oil. Butterball didn't want to just give it away for free. It wasn't garbage to them, it had value that they had plans for. So CWT had to pay Butterball to get the turkey guts. And that's just with a small amount of 270 tons of turkey guts a day. Multiply that effect by 16 million. All of a sudden a large source of animal feed, fertilizers, chemicals, etc has just been removed from the system. Now you might understand why CWT never built more than 1 plant. They were in competition for the "waste", and had to outbid everyone else to get it.

of the 6 billion tons of annual waste generated in United States, approximately half of it is agricultural. Prior to mankind's industrial era, all of the waste biomass was simply recycled back into the ecosystem. With the advent of meat rendering on a large-scale, that waste became increasingly recycled in a more systematic fashion, entering the process at a much higher level, in the form of animal feed, fertilizer, and various chemicals.
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Re: thermal depolymerization a end to peak oil?

Unread postby dohboi » Mon 05 Jan 2009, 02:25:33

"My largest concern is that if push comes to shove, this country will turn to coal. For me, THAT is the nightmare scenario to be avoided."

Well, we can agree on this at least.

As for the rest, you seem to be shockingly, absurdly, perhaps intentionally? naive (at best). If you have been aware/thinking about peak oil for decades but have only just hit on this sight, perhaps you have not been trying very hard to look beyond your own little brain for info and perspective on this enormous issue.

Don't now assume that those many of us who have sought out info from a wide variety of sources are the ones that are hopelessly naive doomers while you are the fully informed realist.

Being new to the thread does no give you street cred. If you are going to come in making major claims, you will need to carry some major evidence, and ideally you would have done your homework, not only by searching what has been discussed here already, but what has been found generally in this area.

Look over carefully what k said. If you are sincere, come back with a realistic assessment of your proposal based on the real limits we face. Otherwise, do us all and yourself a favor and take your snake-oil peddling elsewhere.
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Re: thermal depolymerization a end to peak oil?

Unread postby dohboi » Mon 05 Jan 2009, 02:42:47

And charlieh (to the extent you are a different person from toms), please don't post titles like this on this web site: "thermal depolymerization a end to peak oil?

Besides being in bad headline-speak, it's just an embarrassment to the whole thread to have headings like this on it that don't conform to the basic rules of written (at least) English (an is the form of the indefinite article used before nouns beginning with a vowel). It's one thing to post an idea that has been proven bankrupt on this and other sites many times. But to do so in nearly incoherent English...it just makes you look really, really foolish and frankly reflects badly on the whole forum.

Please spend a moment thinking about your topic and the language you write it in before posting such headlines. But I know that's a lot to ask these days, thinking being such hard work, and a moment seeming such a long time to spend at it.
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Re: thermal depolymerization a end to peak oil?

Unread postby Tanada » Mon 05 Jan 2009, 08:02:38

I like TDP as a recycling tool, I think it would be smart to recycle municiple waste and sewage with TDP for example, but I never for a moment thought that would replace a majority of oil usage in the USA.

My concern with TDP is the claim aparently backed up with test data that they can use Lignite or sub bitimus coal as a feedstock and make "clean coal technology" fuel out of it. If that practice ever takes off in earnest then coal mining is going to take off in an even bigger way than it already has.
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Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.
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Re: thermal depolymerization a end to peak oil?

Unread postby lonewolf » Mon 05 Jan 2009, 16:53:17

To those that have objected to my use of the 4-letter word "scam", if you were an investor or would-be investor back when - it was a SCAM (and still is)- a complete hoax, a utter fraud, a blatant lie and overt misrepresentation of facts (ntm defying the laws of thermodynamics NTM chemistry and 'common sense'). Back, what now seems like almost a decade ago, I was one of the principle technical debunkers of this overt "LIE" (aka fraud aka SCAM). Ain't going there again. It's a FARKING scam folks - at least as portrayed by the corporate goons and pukes-persons. OTOH, a fool is born every second and most now have internet connections, so believe whatever it is that 'blows your socks up since everyone else apparently does. Facts be damned.
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Re: thermal depolymerization a end to peak oil?

Unread postby kublikhan » Mon 05 Jan 2009, 17:32:36

lonewolf wrote:To those that have objected to my use of the 4-letter word "scam", if you were an investor or would-be investor back when - it was a SCAM (and still is)- a complete hoax, a utter fraud, a blatant lie and overt misrepresentation of facts (ntm defying the laws of thermodynamics NTM chemistry and 'common sense'). Back, what now seems like almost a decade ago, I was one of the principle technical debunkers of this overt "LIE" (aka fraud aka SCAM). Ain't going there again. It's a FARKING scam folks - at least as portrayed by the corporate goons and pukes-persons. OTOH, a fool is born every second and most now have internet connections, so believe whatever it is that 'blows your socks up since everyone else apparently does. Facts be damned.
As far as I can tell, this technology did fall short of expectations. It was not however a scam, overt lie, nor does it violate the laws of thermodynamics. If it is in fact a scam, could you provide a source for this? Or if you have a link to the technical debunking you did a decade ago that would be helpful too.
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Re: thermal depolymerization a end to peak oil?

Unread postby lonewolf » Mon 05 Jan 2009, 17:55:43

kublikhan wrote: ... It was not however a scam, overt lie, nor does it violate the laws of thermodynamics.


Says you. Don't suppose you were privy to the PR spiel (bilge, lies, ...) that CWT promulgated. now were you?

kublikhan wrote: If it is in fact a scam, could you provide a source for this?


Try Webster's (a dictionary). The blatant misrepresentation of fact/information for the explicit purpose of separating would-be investors from their money is a "scam" (in my definition, check your dictionary for a better one). Or fraud if you prefer a bigger word.
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Re: thermal depolymerization a end to peak oil?

Unread postby kublikhan » Mon 05 Jan 2009, 18:18:44

lonewolf wrote:
kublikhan wrote: If it is in fact a scam, could you provide a source for this?

Try Webster's (a dictionary). The blatant misrepresentation of fact/information for the explicit purpose of separating would-be investors from their money is a "scam" (in my definition, check your dictionary for a better one). Or fraud if you prefer a bigger word.
I was hoping for something a little bit more from one of the "principle technical debunkers" of TDP. If you did infact debunk this from a technical point of view, could I see your work?
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Re: thermal depolymerization a end to peak oil?

Unread postby TomSaidak » Mon 05 Jan 2009, 20:19:02

Kublikhan wrote:

Alot....

Thanks, that represents some of the most helpful numbers I have seen, and answered my question about the 10:1 ratio.

That article on 400 gallons per person for agricultural energy reads somewhat histrionic. They could have said 9.something bbl. Using 400 was for shock value. And frankly at least 1/2 of that energy is electrical or natural gas. The miscellaneous category is way misleading as it gives no clue what it includes. Wahh, Wahh.... kvetch over..... On the other hand, we may have been using oil for electricity as late as 1995. I am a bit hazy when we converted all oil burners to NG or dual feed for electricty.

I am in the midst of rerunning TDP/CDP figures. I did find one ag source that no one else is using - pig manure. Right now, I am reaching figures of about 25% current consumption. Tops out at something like 44% if we go 100% PHEV.

To come up with final numbers, I will be looking into kenaf plants/trees for a paper source replacement. That could possibly change the MSW recycling figures. Frankly, those numbers are all over the board. One of the sources is wood, of which a large percentage is listed as "unrecoverable" - what the @$#@@ does that mean? I suspect I will be calling my local dumpsites or recyclers to get a handle on that number. Once I get numbers I feel comfortable with, I will post for more arm rassling. You still haven't stated which beer to go with..... :)

Another related question... The 500,000 bbl per day from BP's 4 platforms - is that considered part of US production, or would it be considered imported?

And yet another question.... Does anyone know if it is easier to get algae to produce lipid type fats and where I could research it?

Anyway, thanks for the info. I will be busy crunching it. Is there anyway to post a spread sheet to this forum?
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Re: thermal depolymerization a end to peak oil?

Unread postby TomSaidak » Mon 05 Jan 2009, 21:12:50

About "scam" as a four letter word.....

Kublikhan and I are in a friendly debate backed by numbers. No scam there...

CWT and Green Energies may or may not be involved in "scamming" the world. IF you go by the numbers, then "scam" is irrelevant. I spoke to my dad who has a degree in Industrial Engineering. Now, he went into the US Navy, and so does not have alot of experience in taking an idea from the labratory into industrial applications. He does have a ton of experience of dealing with claims from weapons vendors and how they played out in real battlefields. He participated in the major retrofits of at least two ships, and saw how claims versus reality played out in one actual shooting war. His response to TDP was that the initiator of a new technology will ALWAYS play UP the possibilities. It only becomes a "scam" if there is little or no truth to the claims. CWT in maintaining a figure of 52% of US oil consumption is not a "scam" in the dictionary sense of the word. It does represent an outlook that oil production is more important then any other possible use of a feedstock.

Ultimately, the best discussion concerning TDP/CDP is NOT whether it is a scam, but what the math says. We have two pilot plants and a test plant in operation, plus at least 5 licenses for more plants being persued. That will determine the reality of TDP/CDP. Not back and forth discussions about what constitutes a "scam".

So play nice, or I WILL break out my Lemur Speaking totem!! :)


Or, play nice, and use NUMBERS!!! Both CWT and Green Energy's patents will be running out soon, and it won't matter what EITHER of those two corporations are saying ANYWAY...

Tanada wrote:
My concern with TDP is the claim aparently backed up with test data that they can use Lignite or sub bitimus coal as a feedstock and make "clean coal technology" fuel out of it. If that practice ever takes off in earnest then coal mining is going to take off in an even bigger way than it already has.

Hmm.... Again, you need to look at the numbers. Good vs. Bad is not found in the universe. It is a construct of sentience. IF Peak Oil is the ultimate boogey man, then converting coal to oil is good. If global warming is the boogy man, then it may be bad.

One of the problems in discussing energy is the fact that most people look at oil use or electricity. Not both. When looking at CO2 emissions, TDP derived from coal gets a bit trickier to look at. It could be bad, or it could be good. It depends one a two tiered approach. In either case, numbers need to be crunched.....
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Re: thermal depolymerization a end to peak oil?

Unread postby kublikhan » Tue 06 Jan 2009, 01:11:34

TomSaidak wrote:And yet another question.... Does anyone know if it is easier to get algae to produce lipid type fats and where I could research it?
You should probably check out the energy technology forum over here: Energy Technology

Most energy technology related threads wind up there. In fact this thread is probably better suited to that forum than Current Events. There are a couple of algae threads there. I think this one was most extensive:
Algae Oil Not Viable Until Oil Hits $800

You should also check at the website: The Oil Drum if you have not already. They post a number of peak oil/energy related articles on that sight and often delve down deep into the numbers. The have a number of articles on Algae:
Algae Biodiesel
Such as this one: The Man Who Wrote The Book On Algae Biodiesel

TomSaidak wrote:Anyway, thanks for the info. I will be busy crunching it. Is there anyway to post a spread sheet to this forum?
You can upload your spreadsheet to a website that allows free file hosting, such as FileFactory or MediaFire. Then after the upload is complete, post a link to that file in this forum, the website will give you the direct file link.
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Re: thermal depolymerization a end to peak oil?

Unread postby TomSaidak » Thu 08 Jan 2009, 14:37:53

Okay, here is the URL for my spreadsheet. Thanks for the suggestion Kublikhan. :)
My TDP spreadsheet
{Note Spreadsheet Revised 1/8/2009}
I apologize ahead of time if you don’t like the way I work my spreadsheets. Feel free to email me your version. If I like it, I will adopt and update accordingly. This file should work with anything that can except a 1997 to 2003 Excel Spreadsheet. If for some reason you cannot access the spreadsheet, let me know and I will try to email you directly.
I identified numerous feedstocks that would yield 32% of our current consumption. IF we mandated changes to power trains for transportation to more efficient drive trains, we could lower our consumption by 40%, which means the identified feedstocks would yield 54% of US consumption.
About comments. At this point the 10:1 ratio is meaningless for oil production. The figures are “hard figures” in that they represent documented amounts of matter and documented amounts of energy available. I really don’t care how the mass got there as long as it exists. If you spot a math error – let me know! This is not to say the 10:1 ratio is unimportant, but that it is not important HERE…. OTOH, debate about availability of a given feedstock IS, i.e. how much cow manure can we really use for oil.
About methods for determining energy….. In some cases I used BTU/mass. In those cases I multiplied by an additional 5/6 as I recall TDP uses 1 bbl out of every 6 to energize their process. In at least one case, I took the article at face value (Pig Manure), and then modified because of water content problems. So I may be off for these figures as I am assuming either TDP or CDP can wrestle out the BTU. If you have articles that would inform me on that subject do please send them my way!
For most of the feedstock, the oil produced was not significant. They did however address other environmental concerns. I included them for that reason alone, such as medical waste and sewage.
My intention is to arm rassle these figures first. I want to define what the deficit is so I know how big a hole to fill. I have already started that process by looking at Kenaf trees, which yield anywhere from .45 bbl per acre to 15+ bbl/acre, based on internet articles and calling people. I have given up on the internet and am calling people to verify numbers, as obviously at .45 bbl/acre, TDP is meaningless, while at 15 bbl/acre, TDP might well be a solution. More on that when a) I get some information I feel confident in, and b) I have time to play with my spreadsheets. I am starting a long term substitute teacher gig on 1/12, and this website has been sporadically hard or impossible to get to.
And remember – arm rasslers MUST bring beer! And if you bring any of that pale pilsner/light beer crud, I will pelt you with the individual cans or bottles. I prefer HEFTY ales. Same goes for lagers. I drink ALES – none of that sissy lager stuff!
Last edited by TomSaidak on Fri 09 Jan 2009, 02:19:37, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: thermal depolymerization a end to peak oil?

Unread postby TomSaidak » Thu 08 Jan 2009, 18:24:37

Pstarr wrote:

Then you have no comprehension of net-energy analysis, eroie, or human/industrial ecology.


Okay, so lets run the numbers based on 10:1
163 Bushels of corn to the acre
222040 Kcal (food calories) per 10 bushels of corn.
93,000,000 acres planted in corn.
0.00396566683 btu per THERMAL calorie.
5800000 total btu in bbl
163/10 = 16.3 (multiplier for total Kcal per acre.)
222040*1000*16.3 = 3,619,252,000 total thermal calories per acre.
=93,000,000*3,619,252,000 = 3.3659*10^17 total thermal calories in 93,000,000 acres of corn.
3.3659*10^17/0.00396566683 = 1.33481*10^15 btu in all that corn.
1.33481*10^15/5800000 = 23013884 bbl of energy in corn.
Oil energy required as per Pstarr..
10*23013884 = 230138840.
230138840/(365*2100000)*100 = 30% of total US Oil Consumption.
30% Pstarr's Corn Energy Required Figure.
40% Passenger Car and Light Truck share of US Oil Consumption
26% Heavy Truck share of US Oil Consumption
7% US Air travel/transport share of US oil consumption.
20% Industrial share of Oil.
120%. Total Oil called for expressed as percentage of US oil consumption at 21,000,000 bbl per day.
So, either we ran out of oil in August, AND no trains or ships moved or bunkered in the US during 2008, or that 10:1 ratio doesn't apply here. Not to mention we didn't have enough oil for rice, wheat, sorghum, trees, cotton, grapes, barley ( I HATE not having beer....), hops (did I mention I HATE not having beer??), fish, beef, pork (no loss, I don't eat pork...), lamb, chicken, turkey, goat cheese, dairy products, plastic, paper, new cars (US Built, we can argue if that is good or bad elsewhere...), wine...........
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Re: thermal depolymerization a end to peak oil?

Unread postby kublikhan » Thu 08 Jan 2009, 20:15:10

TomSaidak wrote:Okay, here is the URL for my spreadsheet.
A few suggestions. When posting, use the link button(looks like a small globe with a change link behind it" to post links. Cleanup the spreadsheet a bit. Put what units you are using. Clearly label sources, etc.

About the numbers, I think you need to differentiate between waste material, and garbage that is discarded. Just because a potential feed stock is waste material, does not mean that our current system discards the material. For example, the "black liquor" waste stream generated by paper mills is waste and a potential feedstock. But our current system does not just discard the waste. They burn it in a recovery boiler to generate the energy they need. So if you are going to be taking away that energy from them, you have to replace it with another source of energy.

The forest products industry generates 51% of its energy needs from biomass and black liquor.
Pulp And Papermill

Another US pulp mill contact said black liquor, a byproduct of cooking wood chips, is burned in a recovery boiler and the heat value creates steam to power the pulp mill.
The contact added that the key problems with considering black liquor as a biodiesel source is in the reliability of the gasification process and the need to replace the energy source created from the black liquor. About two-thirds of the energy for running a pulp mill comes from the black liquor recovery.
Black Liquor

So I would not list the paper mill source since that energy is already allocated by our current system.
BTW, what conversion factor are you using when converting tons of mass into barrels of oil? And can you link to the source for that?

For the wastes that come from agriculture sources(manure, corn stover, etc), this should be used to maintain soil fertility. We should not be polluting water streams with it, or turning it into oil.

Manure is the oldest and most effective fertilizer known to man. As long as man has used domesticated animals and worked the soil, manure, which is sometimes referred to as "dung" has been used to feed the soil and plants. Manure can return 70 percent of the nitrogen, 75 percent of the phosphorus and 80 percent of the potash that was taken from the soil to feed the animals. This is not a bad return if you consider a dairy cow produces 27,000 pounds of manure per year.

For thousands of years this was the perfect system between man, animal and nature. Mother Nature, herself, invented this system. All we have to do is travel through the countryside and look at the forest to see this system in action. The plant life flourishes, taking nutrients and trace minerals from the soil. As the plant completes its life cycle, material is returned to the forest floor where it is mixed with animal waste, decomposes, is consumed by earthworms, and used to feed the next cycle of plant life.

The value of manure was still understood when man moved to the city. It was gathered, piled outside city gates where all could share in its value. Without manure to place in the field, the nutrients and trace minerals in the soil would soon be depleted and the land would no longer support a commercial crop. Part of what supported the westward movement in this country was the practice of early farmers using up the land and moving West to more fertile ground. It is sad that even today most farmers do not understand the proper use of manure and simply dump it on uncultivated land for disposal. Only about 1/4 to 1/3 of the true value of manure as a resource is realized in this country.
Manure
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Re: thermal depolymerization a end to peak oil?

Unread postby kublikhan » Thu 08 Jan 2009, 20:25:31

TomSaidak wrote:Okay, so lets run the numbers based on 10:1
That number is in energy equivalents. The energy is not just from oil. For example, most of the energy used to manufacture fertilizer comes from natural gas. The energy used for irrigation could come from diesel, natural gas, propane, electricity, etc. Also, that number includes transportation energy, which would already be included in oil use categories that you excluded from your example(such as trucking).
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Re: thermal depolymerization a end to peak oil?

Unread postby kublikhan » Thu 08 Jan 2009, 20:56:10

TomSaidak wrote:This website has been sporadically hard or impossible to get to.
Try logging on at a different time of day. During high traffic times, this website slows down to a crawl or becomes impossible to access. But at low traffic times it is relatively snappy.
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