[ralfy]

Look at it this way. No matter what the currency is, gold is priced by the ounce... not by the currency.

You won't see a quote anywhere for what $1 or 1 pound or 1 yen or 1 ruble gets you in gold.

All quotes for gold are by the ounce and how many units of currency it takes to get that ounce.

The gold ounce is a unit of money.
The silver ounce is another unit of money.

All currencies attempt to FIX a claim of value in relation to that ounce of money.

The value of gold does not change. It is the worthless currency that keeps changing.

Gold is gold. But, who knows what a dollar is (or any other currency) from one minute to the next.

It's priced in dollars per ounce, not in ounces.

What's the price of a bunch of bananas in gold following your point? One microspeck?

And the value isn't fixed. In times of peace, you can buy sacks of rice with one ounce. In times of war, it'll be one ounce for a kilo of rice.

People have not been fixing money to it for decades. That's because if you take the total amount of gold and silver worldwide and divide it by the number of people, you end up with only a few ounces per person.

And what's the practical value of that ounce of gold outside trade? Some applications like non-corrosive contact points in appliances, dental filling, etc.

[theluckycountry]

And the value isn't fixed. In times of peace, you can buy sacks of rice with one ounce. In times of war, it'll be one ounce for a kilo of rice.

I have done quite a lot of research on gold in my day, the Roman empire collapsed and the planet went into a darkage yet 500 years later Roman coinage was still used, still valued highly. Gold was used extensively during WWII, British aviators carried gold sovereigns on them when operating in the middle east because they could buy rescue with it. They also carried a note in Arabic stating that if the pilot was returned to an allied base more gold would be given.

It's a survivalist myth that Gold is of no value in hard times. it's very valuable, just not to gun nuts in bunkers, just like today. But take some gold to any Asian foodstore and see their eyes light up. They know it's value. I remember talking with 'survivalists' on an aussie forum in 2004, they were all dead set against gold even as a hedge against inflation in current times.

I wonder how many of them are scratching their heads now that it's gone from $600/oz to $3000/oz? That's better gains than real estate, better by far than the ASX share market and you can sell it for cash at any coin store in the nation, no questions asked. Or online if you're stupid enough to expose yourself that way.

Gold and silver have been my best investments by far.

[AdamB]

Gold and silver have been my best investments by far.

You have my sympathy. It has been my worst. I've made more of a % increase in my investment in certain motorcycles after 6 years than my gold over 40 years. My market investments have beat it to a pulp as well across the same time frame, and unlike the motorcycles, I didn't even have to DO anything. Just buy market tracking funds in various sizes and shapes and forget about them for a decade or three. With some buying on the dip invovled, although I prefer "blood in the streets" buying to just buying on the dip.

[noobtube]

If only these "lazy" young people today just lived in the 1980s and 90s. Then, their hard work would pay off.

Maybe. There is hard work, and then there are people who confuse being a gadfly on the internet with it. I'm still trying to determine if you are one of those who feels sorry for themselves and is looking for someone else to blame it on, from the older folk crowd like me, or the younger group crowd. Would you care to venture a generation you were born into, that we might compare that with my old fart generation?

I wonder, could it be they are "lazy" because those opportunities, from the 1980s and 90s, don't exist today.

The US was suffering under staggering stagflation in the early 80's, far more opportunity exists today than my formative decades. I will assume you are of the younger crowd for not knowing this viscerally enough to have already experienced bad times, and grew up during or post the go-go 80's and everything that meant. Those of your type born into summer are expected to whine when winter shows up, if not cower in fear because you lack confidence in your ability to do something other than whine about your circumstances.

Now we see the results of decades of that mentality. The youth have no future. And, they are getting angry.

<yawn> Cry me a river, I was homeless my last semester in college, and living in storage unit. I wasn't angry. I was focused, and determined. Grow a pair already and stop acting like some spoiled "whaa why can't I have everything for free!!!"

You kept saying the markets outperformed gold and cherry-picked a fluke of history. That 20-year period between 1980-2000 was an aberration, due to a number of external factors.

Maybe it was. But those of us who invested in gold when the world was supposedly ending didn't know it in advance. And NOW you want to backtrack on your claim of all gold, all the time. No wonder you are so disappointed with your lot in life, why should YOU have to get where you want to be the hard way, why don't you parents just hand it to you on a silver platter....WHAAA FOR NOOBTUBE...SOMEONE FORGOT TO GIVE HIM HIS SILVER SPOON AT BIRTH.

You want to believe those ridiculous "oil" numbers just like you want to believe in "the markets" despite all the evidence to the contrary.

Of course I don't believe the ridiculous numbers YOU think are oil, I believe the ones that ARE oil that your lacking a silver spoon persona couldn't find with a keyboard, a flashlight, and them being a link right there on your own reference. Upon demonstrating such basic internet incompetence, might it be honest to say that your whining is due in part to you making these basic kinds of "can't think for yourself" boners in real life where it matters, and others have noticed?

The world doesn't need more Archie Bunkers.

Or children who wouldn't know what to do with an honest days work if you loaned them an illegal immigrant to do it for them.

My childhood was during the wild inflation of the 1970s and early 1980s. That is when I was introduced to gold. Once the uncertainty was gone, people stopped talking about it until the GFC of 2009. If only I had saved in gold, during the 90s, and not squandered my earnings chasing "the market", broadcom, worldcom, enron, arthur andersen, bear stearns, and lehman brothers. Why did the old folks abandon gold for this "market" nonsense?

By the time I realized the difference between money and currency, in 2009, my best earning years were behind me. Anything left was put into precious metals. And, it worked great. Everything was going fine. Then, one day, I decided to go on a boat. And, tragically, and disastrously, lost all my gold and silver in an unfortunate boating accident.

Been angry ever since at all those who try to convince me currency is real, "the markets" create wealth, while all my precious metals are sitting at the bottom of the water.

Now, I spend my days sweeping the floors of the local Blue Cross/Blue Shield, praying for the day to get some scuba gear to go dive and recover all my lost wealth.

Maybe I should just be content that no one was hurt. It certainly must be nice to have real money and not have to sweep floors.

Well, I've got to get back to this "hard" work. Those floors won't sweep themselves.

[noobtube]

Who knows what is he is doing? Clearly now he's down on the banks and probably took short positions on them months ago. I recall after the GFC he bought a ton load of shares in the big banks, at special rates, with special options. All this was published "After" the fact and of course the herd, hearing what Buffett was up, to rushed in to join him. When did he sell those shares? That's the thing, he looks like a wizard because every time he buys something and promotes it everyone rushes in and the price goes up but you rarely hear accounts of him selling. He's a mouthpiece for the system.

He could privately hold billions in bullion, offshore, onshore, you just wouldn't know. When he cornered the silver market, so to speak, back in the 1990's by acquiring about 130 million ounces of silver via the birkshire hathaway octopus, the amount was so small compared to the companies other investments it was able to be hidden under miscellaneous. In other words it wasn't made public.

There is a food chain and those at the top get the information first and profit massively. Like how Nathan Rothschild made a Fortune speculating on shares and bonds after spreading misinformation about who won the battle of Waterloo. The whole paper finance structure is as corrupt as hell and always has been.
https://www.globalcapital.com/article/2 ... -a-killing

Well, I can't argue with this.

[noobtube]

It's priced in dollars per ounce, not in ounces.

What's the price of a bunch of bananas in gold following your point? One microspeck?

And the value isn't fixed. In times of peace, you can buy sacks of rice with one ounce. In times of war, it'll be one ounce for a kilo of rice.

People have not been fixing money to it for decades. That's because if you take the total amount of gold and silver worldwide and divide it by the number of people, you end up with only a few ounces per person.

And what's the practical value of that ounce of gold outside trade? Some applications like non-corrosive contact points in appliances, dental filling, etc.

These problems were answered through thousands of years of commerce, debt, and taxes.

If gold is too much. Use silver. If that is too much, use copper. Problem solved.

Historically, a day's wages was about a dime of silver. Heard that somehwere. So, there is enough money if the prices are based on it rather than imaginary currency. There was a time the US Treasury had so much money (gold and silver) they didn't know what to do with it. That all ended by 1968 with the Vietnam War.

But, whoever heard of using paper for currency? Paper wasn't a thing until well after gold and silver were in use. China tried paper in the 1400s I think, and it was a total failure. It always fails.

Money has never really been abandoned. To this very day, the Federal Reserve Note maintains a gold cover. The government doesn't talk about it, but they are diligent in making sure the dollars in existence don't vary too far from 4x gold. In 1980, it was near 1x. Today, it is around 5-6x. That means gold prices must go up or dollars need to decline. The way the US government spends, it's more likely gold is going higher.

[AdamB]

My childhood was during the wild inflation of the 1970s and early 1980s.

Excellent! Then you have at least some experience with real economic malaise as compared to small things that go squeak in the night and send the inexperienced screaming with dread to their mommys.

That is when I was introduced to gold. Once the uncertainty was gone, people stopped talking about it until the GFC of 2009.

Unfortunate that you didn't take your own advice and get some back then, to take advantage of the "anomaly" across the next 20 years.

If only I had saved in gold, during the 90s, and not squandered my earnings chasing "the market", broadcom, worldcom, enron, arthur andersen, bear stearns, and lehman brothers. Why did the old folks abandon gold for this "market" nonsense?

I did both. And the market won. So how in the world did you chase the market and NOT succeed? Admittedly, I don't do individual stocks and bonds and whatnot, conditions of my type of employment require only investing in market tracking funds and whatnot.

By the time I realized the difference between money and currency, in 2009, my best earning years were behind me. Anything left was put into precious metals. And, it worked great.

Really? Well, what have you bought with your precious metals? Mine just sat there and never did anything but remind me to not take investing advice from doomer types. Do you chip off small pieces to pay for a night out at the dinner and movies? Maybe a larger piece for making car payments and whatnot? Here is a Wall Street Mojo breakdown of currency versus money. Does it fit within your schema of both?

Everything was going fine. Then, one day, I decided to go on a boat. And, tragically, and disastrously, lost all my gold and silver in an unfortunate boating accident.

But of course you did. How unfortunate. I would loan you some, but the dog buried all of mine out in the back 40 somewhere and we haven't been able to find it ever since.

[theluckycountry]

Money has never really been abandoned. To this very day, the Federal Reserve Note maintains a gold cover. The government doesn't talk about it, but they are diligent in making sure the dollars in existence don't vary too far from 4x gold. In 1980, it was near 1x. Today, it is around 5-6x. That means gold prices must go up or dollars need to decline. The way the US government spends, it's more likely gold is going higher.

Interesting, I never heard that, but it makes sense. I've heard many stories about the manipulation of the gold price, like how the US in the 1980's made a 'new' deal with Saudi Arabia for their oil that included keeping the price of Gold in check so the middle east exporters could fill their coffers with it. I think that fitted with the 20 stabilization of the gold price back then, but again, who knows?

All I know is Oil is the master resource and while it flowed abundantly and was cheap the price of Gold stayed cheap. This was no doubt helped by the fact it was totally ignored by Western peoples' who had all the wealth to buy it. In the 1990's someone did a calculation that showed how 100,000 middle-class Japanese investing 50k each could have bought up all the available silver on the planet. There really isn't that much silver out there, and all the gold ever mined would fit into the volume of a three story house.

Is it any wonder why modern investors laugh at Gold? They have been trained to shun it. I was looking at the chart of the cryptos' this morning, doge back down to 7-cents, bitcoin to 27k. I think their day in the sun is over now but gold and silver just keep going up like all finite natural resources. Years ago I bought a couple of ounces of Platinum, much rarer than Gold even, but it's gone nowhere. It's a beautiful metal but it's high industrial use, Cats for cars mostly, means it's price has been kept low. 50% goes into jewelry. It's like the oil price, $70 today. Laughably cheap compared to it's availability but it's very necessity in modern living ensures it will be kept low. Humans really ought not be allowed out of the house alone.

[AdamB]

All I know is Oil is the master resource and while it flowed abundantly and was cheap the price of Gold stayed cheap.

Global oil volumes are nearly at an all time high, i.e. flowing abundantly, and is pretty cheap, like less than half of its now 15 year old high. Yet gold is within a few dollars of being at an all time high.

To summarize....by your own words....Oil currently flows abundantly, and is cheap, gold is not cheap, is near all time high expensive.

Ergo, by your own admission, you know nothing. You don't have to make this so easy Lucky. Do what plant does, troll a little, make believe your references say one thing while you claim another, at least make people WORK to figure out you are full of crap. Admitting it and proving it in a single sentence...I mean...Kiwi's would do far better, and would have at least have used 2 sentences to trip over their own words.

[Outcast_Searcher]

All I know is Oil is the master resource and while it flowed abundantly and was cheap the price of Gold stayed cheap.

Global oil volumes are nearly at an all time high, i.e. flowing abundantly, and is pretty cheap, like less than half of its now 15 year old high. Yet gold is within a few dollars of being at an all time high.

To summarize....by your own words....Oil currently flows abundantly, and is cheap, gold is not cheap, is near all time high expensive.

Ergo, by your own admission, you know nothing. You don't have to make this so easy Lucky. Do what plant does, troll a little, make believe your references say one thing while you claim another, at least make people WORK to figure out you are full of crap. Admitting it and proving it in a single sentence...I mean...Kiwi's would do far better, and would have at least have used 2 sentences to trip over their own words.

Yes, his claim is just wrong and random (as is so often the case), and can be confirmed as such by the fact that for the past 50 years (once crude oil got quite volatile in price), both crude and gold have been ALL OVER THE PLACE, and their long term charts are NOT closely correlated over any meaningful period of time in the past 5 decades.

Of course, he doesn't even bother to define the terms in his claims, like when "oil flowed abundantly".

Over the long run, gold tends to move with inflation, so measured in US dollar price, with US inflation. So long term the price is up, and we've recently had the biggest inflation spike in 4 decades. So surprise, surprise, gold is up, though not impressively so given all the "horrendous" inflation the far right has been endlessly bleating about (and wildly exaggerating) for political points.

https://www.macrotrends.net/1369/crude- ... tory-chart

https://www.macrotrends.net/1333/histor ... year-chart

Note that both charts are adjusted for inflation with the CPI, and gold is about 20 percent BELOW the inflation adjusted peak it hit over a decade ago, despite "all the horrible Biden inflation", which is actually more Trump inflation due to his terrible handling of Covid-19, since it's mostly an issue from Covid dislocations including government Covid assistance.

[theluckycountry]

Physical gold investment was up by 5% year-on-year in the first quarter.
Investors bought 302 tons of gold bars and gold coins in Q1 with a value of $18.4 billion. This was 14% above the 5-year average, according to the World Gold Council. The surge in physical gold investment came even as gold prices reached record levels in many currencies.

Physical Gold Demand By Region
The banking failure in March lit a fuse under US gold bar and gold coin investors. US bar and coin demand came in at 32 tons. It was the fourth-strongest quarter in the World Gold Council’s data series. Gold bar and coin demand jumped 40% from the fourth quarter of ’22 and charted a 4% year-on-year increase.

The US Mint reported rocketing coin sales of 288,000 ounces in March. It was the biggest monthly total since October 1998, when the Y2K safe-haven rush for gold was in full swing.

https://schiffgold.com/key-gold-news/ph ... t-quarter/

Nearly time for you to buy some Adam, instead of pretending you have all along

[ralfy]

And the value isn't fixed. In times of peace, you can buy sacks of rice with one ounce. In times of war, it'll be one ounce for a kilo of rice.

I have done quite a lot of research on gold in my day, the Roman empire collapsed and the planet went into a darkage yet 500 years later Roman coinage was still used, still valued highly. Gold was used extensively during WWII, British aviators carried gold sovereigns on them when operating in the middle east because they could buy rescue with it. They also carried a note in Arabic stating that if the pilot was returned to an allied base more gold would be given.

It's a survivalist myth that Gold is of no value in hard times. it's very valuable, just not to gun nuts in bunkers, just like today. But take some gold to any Asian foodstore and see their eyes light up. They know it's value. I remember talking with 'survivalists' on an aussie forum in 2004, they were all dead set against gold even as a hedge against inflation in current times.

I wonder how many of them are scratching their heads now that it's gone from $600/oz to $3000/oz? That's better gains than real estate, better by far than the ASX share market and you can sell it for cash at any coin store in the nation, no questions asked. Or online if you're stupid enough to expose yourself that way.

Gold and silver have been my best investments by far.

Their eyes light up because it's rare, durable, essentially indestructible, and can be molded into coins and jewelry. Beyond that, its only other applications involve certain chemical processes, non-corrosive contact points, and dental filling.

In short, it's good as money and jewelry. It can't be eaten, used for tools, armor, or even weapons. It's even too heavy to use in large quanities as money, which is why centuries ago merchants had them stored in large vaults and used paper notes for trade instead to transfer ownership of gold.

Later, it was set aside because there isn't enough gold and silver worldwide for trade. Divide the amount by people, and you get only a few ounces per capita.

After that, even paper was set aside, which is why much of credit today essentially consists of numbers in hard drives.

In any event, what you're seeing are essentially promissory notes in different formats.

[ralfy]

These problems were answered through thousands of years of commerce, debt, and taxes.

If gold is too much. Use silver. If that is too much, use copper. Problem solved.

Historically, a day's wages was about a dime of silver. Heard that somehwere. So, there is enough money if the prices are based on it rather than imaginary currency. There was a time the US Treasury had so much money (gold and silver) they didn't know what to do with it. That all ended by 1968 with the Vietnam War.

But, whoever heard of using paper for currency? Paper wasn't a thing until well after gold and silver were in use. China tried paper in the 1400s I think, and it was a total failure. It always fails.

Money has never really been abandoned. To this very day, the Federal Reserve Note maintains a gold cover. The government doesn't talk about it, but they are diligent in making sure the dollars in existence don't vary too far from 4x gold. In 1980, it was near 1x. Today, it is around 5-6x. That means gold prices must go up or dollars need to decline. The way the US government spends, it's more likely gold is going higher.

You're only proving my points. Besides jewelry, certain chemical processes, non-corrosive contact points, and dental filling, gold is essentially used as money. And money is a promissory note.

That's why its value goes up and down, dependent on speculation, and what you can get for it is dependent on what's available.

Paper money was used because merchants found it impractical and dangerous to bring around sacks of gold around. Instead, they stored their gold in banks and transferred ownership of it using bank notes as they traded with each other. This was important especially for big-ticket items.

Eventually, even that was replaced by other instruments, from checks to different types of financial instruments, and recorded digitally.

[theluckycountry]

https://www.macrotrends.net/1369/crude- ... tory-chart

Are you serious? you think an inflation adjusted chart means anything? So what if wages went up, so did all else at a greater rate, mortgage repayments and Sickcare costs and everything else people need to live on. The government obfuscates all this by manipulating the statistics, by taking food and energy out of the cpi and in many other ways. You think that because they have more touted barrels pumped because of the shale boom it means more oil available? Well you forgot to account for all the oil used to get that crap out and to the refineries, which is a lot more than when it gushed out in Texas. EROEI, but don't bother, just believe the numbers you have been fed.

You also didn't account for the expanding global population that consumes all this oil. You think that a doubling of global population from 1960 to 2000 isn't going to have an effect on the availability of oil per capita? You think that the rapid industrialization of China and India and it's demand for oil isn't going to mean there is less to go around for everyone else?

All I know is Oil is the master resource and while it flowed abundantly and was cheap the price of Gold stayed cheap.

That's an accurate statement, oil was abundantly flowing, now it's a dredging operation. And it was cheap up until the early 2000's, cheap compared to the available wealth to purchase it. It was abundant compared to the demand side of the equation.

It's pointless discussing anything with you guys since you have no depth of knowledge. All you do is quote government lies and media lies as though they were facts. Nearly everything you watch on that TV set of yours, nearly everything you read from those mainstream sites is massaged to make the world of energy and finance look bright and hopeful so you will go out and consume consume consume. Then a GFC strikes and you you are all scratching your heads, "how could this happen?" "Oh it was Bear Sterns and an insurance company that brought the world to its knees. Good, all fixed, I can go back to my scheduled programming now."

You need to start thinking for yourself OS and stop letting other people do your thinking for you.

[jato0072]

It's pointless discussing anything with you guys

Sad but true. It seems the different (political / ideological) philosophies are more and more polarized every year. At this point, it would almost be entertaining to discuss what we actually agree on.

It is so obvious fiat currencies have life cycles lasting decades or a century. Gold and silver have been valuable for thousands of years. Personally, I don't have any, but I see its utility as a store of wealth.

[theluckycountry]

It's pointless discussing anything with you guys

Sad but true. It seems the different (political / ideological) philosophies are more and more polarized every year. At this point, it would almost be entertaining to discuss what we actually agree on.

A group of us discussed this on a camping trip just last week, 3 days in the Australian outback with zero connectivity to the world aside. It came up late in the trip though, after days of us all being on the same page about everything. And when it did come up we all agreed that it was a 'thing' Yet our very behavior was almost a complete proof that it wasn't. I suspect peoples differences vanish when they are in close proximity to each other day after day, it's only when they meet online, or in the street at protests that they take a stand one way or another.

I find it interesting that one of the reasons people dismiss gold is that they perceive it will be useless when the economy or government collapses. You can't eat it they say, yet all the food they currently eat is bought from a supermarket and paid for with a digital transaction from a digital bank computer. All their retirement wealth is basically digital entries on computer servers too. What do they think they are going to eat when it their digital accounts fail in a collapse, computer printouts of their last statement?

It is quite obvious to me as well that the world has far more money stashed in these accounts than can ever be repaid to the owners based on the productivity of the planet and the mountains of debt that have accumulated. Ergo they will be defaulted on, probably under the guise of a major event, a cover story. Like the GFC, which was a test case in my opinion, a sort of relief valve to take the pressure off before the appointed day.

Gold has done very well under this current system of fiat money. But it doesn't rely on it, as 5000 years of financial transactions have proven. The BRICS nations have been stockpiling and are positioning themselves for a Gold backed currency trade. Either that or they are all planning on opening Very Large jewelry stores. In finance the trend is your friend they say and the trend is $US in the toilet and BRICKS trading taking over from it.

[AdamB]

The gold ounce is a unit of money.
The silver ounce is another unit of money.

It's priced in dollars per ounce, not in ounces.

Sounds like noob doesn't know any more about money and currency than you do about peak oil, doesn't it?

What's the price of a bunch of bananas in gold following your point? One microspeck?

Sounds like you might be familiar with bananas, being a 3rd world dweller, it wouldn't happen to be a banana republic would it? You and Lucky should get along just fine based on his experience with the same fruit.

[AdamB]

https://schiffgold.com/key-gold-news/ph ... t-quarter/

Nearly time for you to buy some Adam, instead of pretending you have all along

No need to pretend. I was a young hillbilly making excellent bank in the oil field and the US economy was a mess, I had no experience investing other than in good tools like a rifle (which for a hillbilly meant food) and truck (which for a hillbilly meant everything else), and not yet wise in the ways of the world. I don't even know what a 401k was or if they had been invented yet back then.

The timing was such that I beat out the US Krugerrand import ban quite nicely (although I didn't buy mine from any formal distributor but another oil field hand who suckered me in with the same nonsense PM bugs still use today), which for awhile sure felt like an ownership ban as well, but I don't think it was. And until the dog buried them somewhere in the yard they collected dust. 40 years now or so. Not an issue really, one of the things I've learned about the PM bugs selling the same ignorant investment advice from 40 years ago is that they don't use them for anything either. No one can talk about using a gold chip to buy gasoline can they? Paying the rent? Buying a car? Because for all their enthusiasm over PMs, they aren't useful, and most PM bugs just like the idea of owning the stuff for some weird reason. Across the time frame I've mentioned, equities have worked out far better, as I have previously mentioned.

[AdamB]

It's pointless discussing anything with you guys since you have no depth of knowledge.

Generally true, but we keep talking to blowhards like you anyway, right? You can't learn, you don't know anything about oil or eroei or technical stuff, don't have a twisty in your entire country to match a Rocky Mountain backroad let alone something like the Corkscrew at Laguna, are a run of the mill PM enthusiast, nothing even original in those claims, and yet we try to educate you as best we can, but that innate inability to learn seems to keep getting in the way.

[theluckycountry]

Wow. 3 back to back posts by Adam. I wonder what he said, guess I'll never know unless someone wants to play with him.

Those sanctions of your President Biden are doing wonders for the coffers of Russia, they are buying more gold than ever with all the profits flowing in from their BRICS partners China and India.



I read that the Chinese leader has been snubbing him, wont even accept a call. Can't blame Xi for that, I wouldn't want to try and have a conversation with him either. It would be like talking to a 5-year old.