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PeakOil is You

The One Percent Pt. 2

For discussions of events and conditions not necessarily related to Peak Oil.

Re: The One Percent Pt. 2

Unread postby Ibon » Sun 07 May 2017, 07:50:43

Hawkcreek wrote:Totally correct. Choice is a key.


I have often reflected how the opulence of the last couple of generations was an amazing opportunity where individuals could have a choice and empower themselves and yet this material abundance failed to awaken this autonomy in the vast majority of those who achieved some levels of economic wealth. For most this didn't rise much above the mundane choice of which color to choose when buying some shiny object. Most actually chose hand cuffs by willfully going into debt and willfully choosing mediocrity by harnessing themselves to unfulfilling jobs. Here we had a rare moment in our civilizations history where wealth penetrated down to the masses opening up an opportunity that so very few chose to take advantage of.

Material abundance was wasted on mediocrity. The vast majority of the middle class chose indolence, abandoned any sense of civic engagement, entertained themselves with television and objects, failed to open their minds and spirits to this amazing rare gift circumstance gave them.

Why do so many choose dimmed down lives?

Why do so many people find it so difficult and unbearable to be truly awake ?
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Re: The One Percent Pt. 2

Unread postby Tanada » Sun 07 May 2017, 08:04:09

JimBof wrote:Some of the smartest people I have known have been the dumbest :- The university Doctor whose students tried to keep him out of the lab because he was too dangerous. The professor who could not organise himself to put the registration sticker on his car.
Many highly intelligent people are smart in only one direction. A friend of mine took an aptitude test with me. He scored +5 in two related fields and virtually nothing anywhere else. His interpersonal skills made mine look brilliant and that is my weak point. Nice guy though. I scored +3 all over the place like I usually do, I am a generalist. This means I do not fit in anywhere.


Don't sell yourself short. In most societies including western culture as structured up through the 1960's specialists like Einstein were judged for what they are, great in a very narrow area and almost incompetent everywhere else. This lead corporations and governments engaged in R&D projects to recruit them and surround them with 'handlers' who took care of every aspect outside of their specialty so they could focus on just that field.

Generalists like yourself on the other hand are the people who took those rarefied ideas the specialists explored and turned them into practical applications. The vast bulk of inventions made before the 1960's and a large percentage of those done by individuals and small groups today are developed by generalists because to make something work in the real world you have to see a much larger picture and have a full skill set, not just an laser like focus on a very narrow beam.
Alfred Tennyson wrote:We are not now that strength which in old days
Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are;
One equal temper of heroic hearts,
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.
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Re: The One Percent Pt. 2

Unread postby Hawkcreek » Sun 07 May 2017, 12:52:34

Ibon wrote:
Why do so many choose dimmed down lives?

Why do so many people find it so difficult and unbearable to be truly awake ?

Those are two tough questions.
My partial answer is -
It takes mindfulness to feel true joy.
For most, it takes solitude to reach mindfulness.
Solitude is sometimes hard to find, nowadays.
"It don't make no sense that common sense don't make no sense no more"
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Re: The One Percent Pt. 2

Unread postby onlooker » Sun 07 May 2017, 13:56:29

It is a shame Western Man became so bogged down by superficial materialism and social status. Imprisoned to and addicted to urges and pleasures. Never finding true fulfillment or Peace. I cannot explain to others about Peace, I only know that it is in my humble opinion the true path to fulfillment.
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Re: The One Percent Pt. 2

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Sun 07 May 2017, 14:50:37

Hawkcreek wrote:
Ibon wrote:
Why do so many choose dimmed down lives?

Why do so many people find it so difficult and unbearable to be truly awake ?

Those are two tough questions.
My partial answer is -
It takes mindfulness to feel true joy.
For most, it takes solitude to reach mindfulness.
Solitude is sometimes hard to find, nowadays.

Yes! And this is, IMO, rarely understood in western culture.

This reminds me of one of my favorite songs called "A Horse With No Name", ironically, by the band called "America". The key bit is the chorus:

I've been through the desert on a horse with no name.
It felt good to be out of the rain.
In the desert you can remember your name
'Cause there ain't no one for to give you no pain.


Of course, there are all sorts of literary references to this concept -- but most of western society chooses to ignore them. Whether it's Jesus spending 40 days in isolation in the desert, Buddha sitting beneath a tree to reach enlightenment (even better, the whole novella "Siddhartha"), "On Walden Pond", with the great quote: "I went to the woods because I wished to live deliberately, to front only the essential facts of life, and see if I could not learn what it had to teach, and not, when I came to die, discover that I had not lived.", etc.

To me, a culture with hundreds, if not thousands of times the number of people primarily worrying about money and status due to the social pressure of competing with the crowds of people we choose to live among, vs. choosing to pursue the quiet wisdom achieved by solitude is tragic beyond words.

And now, we're told that the "successful", "insightful", "productive", etc. people are moving to big cities. In the US, choosing the relative quiet of a rural lifestyle is increasingly seen as "ignorant" and frowned upon by the masses. And of course, the demographic trend globally is net migration to the cities, seen as "proof" that city life is superior.
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: The One Percent Pt. 2

Unread postby Hawkcreek » Sun 07 May 2017, 15:07:46

Yep, I love that song too.
"It don't make no sense that common sense don't make no sense no more"
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Re: The One Percent Pt. 2

Unread postby Ibon » Sun 07 May 2017, 16:05:48

Outcast_Searcher wrote:
To me, a culture with hundreds, if not thousands of times the number of people primarily worrying about money and status due to the social pressure of competing with the crowds of people we choose to live among, vs. choosing to pursue the quiet wisdom achieved by solitude is tragic beyond words.


To bring this existential and for some esoteric tangent into what this site is all about consider the following questions.

What percentage of total consumption and fossil fuel usage is wasted in trivial pursuits which at the source are folks willfully choosing mediocrity and the addiction of filling an unbearable void with materialism. Another way to pose this question, What would be the total amount of energy required to stay within carrying capacity as a species if the population would be free of the neurosis of status, consumption and indolence.

Outcast_Searcher wrote:"On Walden Pond", with the great quote: "I went to the woods because I wished to live deliberately, to front only the essential facts of life, and see if I could not learn what it had to teach, and not, when I came to die, discover that I had not lived.", etc.


There wasn't much suburbia and material consumption yet happening in the mid 1800's when Thoreau wrote those inspiring words and yet he already had a keen eye on the mediocrity we are discussing. This does give one pause that it is not exactly consumption culture itself or elites messing with our minds that is the reason so many choose diminished lives. It is more related to something in the human condition. Which raises only another question on why do some choose a path of inquiry and wisdom while others choose to stay in the bliss of ignorance.

As a percentage the scales are weighted down with far more folks choosing mediocrity over inquiry.

Abundant energy and technology has therefore actually permitted mediocrity to exponentially grow in our population. Abundant energy and technology did not necessarily cause this mediocrity.

Neither our educational institutions nor our religious institutions address this in any meaningful way. Some pop culture does as in the song referenced Horse with No Name.

Sorry to throw another tangent out there but psycho tropic drugs have been a useful tool in the tool chest to deepen ones perceptions. Along with meditation and some religious practices. Vision quests etc. These are important tools. Immersing oneself in wilderness and nature was certainly for me very important, especially when alone and at times with some substances to enhance perceptions. If you are 50 miles deep in a wilderness on shrooms or peyote by yourself I can assure you there is nothing mediocre going on in your head :)

Bhutan is trying very hard as a nation to instill a living Buddhism in their culture where all students in school do discuss some of the questions we are raising here. So there are some tiny pockets on the planet here and there where attempts are being made.

In the USA? Not anything much in the mainstream ever even dares to raise these questions. Certainly not Facebook or much of the social media available. Here on PO.com a small tiny exception in a vast sea of mediocrity.

Sigh :|
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Re: The One Percent Pt. 2

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Sun 07 May 2017, 16:22:33

Some great discussion above, IMO. And with a nice, productive tone, instead of people "yelling" at each other, which is refreshing.

Perhaps it's the complexity (which the discussion certainly reminds me of) inherent in the system, which keeps most from being able or willing to try and get somewhat outside the system and trying to regain a little personal control over their lives.

It reminds me of the wonderful Monty Python bit about how corporate America and the economy work in their movie "The Meaning of Life".

Exec #1: Item six on the agenda: "The Meaning of Life" Now uh, Harry, you've had some thoughts on this.
Exec #2: Yeah, I've had a team working on this over the past few weeks, and what we've come up with can be reduced to two fundamental concepts. One: People aren't wearing enough hats. Two: Matter is energy. In the universe there are many energy fields which we cannot normally perceive. Some energies have a spiritual source which act upon a person's soul. However, this "soul" does not exist ab initio as orthodox Christianity teaches; it has to be brought into existence by a process of guided self-observation. However, this is rarely achieved owing to man's unique ability to be distracted from spiritual matters by everyday trivia.
Exec #3: What was that about hats again?

LOL

...

Squirrel!

(Sorry, wrong thread).
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: The One Percent Pt. 2

Unread postby onlooker » Sun 07 May 2017, 17:54:08

Yes, some great thoughts here. I suggest the following. First, the pace and hectic nature of modern life and work servitude leave little volition or time to escape physically or even into your own thoughts. Which leads to the second point of how when in solitude especially in nature you are disengaged from mundane matters and almost forced and certainly motivated to confront yourself vis-a-vis the Universe and other profound questions. Thus I think this then can give a person a healthy perspective and gratitude voiding one of too much ego and pride (more humility)
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Re: The One Percent Pt. 2

Unread postby onlooker » Sun 07 May 2017, 19:44:43

This is a spiritual quote I found which I think is pertinent to thus discussion
"Hope is being able to see that there is light despite all the darkness.
Every man must decide whether he will walk in the light of creative altruism, or in the darkness of destrutive selfishness.
Come forth into the light of things, let nature be your teacher.
What light is to the eyes-what air is to the lungs-what love is to the heart, liberty is to the soul of man and woman."
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Re: The One Percent Pt. 2

Unread postby Ibon » Mon 08 May 2017, 00:13:45

I think it was Tanada who wrote in another thread that most humans are simply followers. Related to this is the truth we are discussing that most humans live pretty mediocre lives.
Those of us who dig deeper, seek wisdom, live life more fully, let's face it, we have always been the minority in any civilization. It is not that our current civilization is any more decadent.

But, mediocrity historically never really made an impact. One of the reasons our species is deep in overshoot is because mediocrity today does have an impact, it is being rewarded and it has gone viral. The global middle class represent the greatest mis allocation of resources.

There is little doubt in my mind that once energy constrains and consequences unfold these same folks who today live such dimmed lives with opulence will also be the ones who will willingly tow the line in what ever powered down economic reality unfolds. They will remain the segment of the population that does not question and falls in line. They are important in the future for they will replace fossil fuel energy once again with human labor. They will be good and willing serfs.

They should never have been allowed to have cars and plastic and all this wealth in the first place. But early on the middle class did contribute to the wealth pump that made the elite fabulously wealthy.

The task now is not necessarily to try to educate them and give them wisdom. When times were good they didn't go for it so we shouldn't try to ride a dead horse and expect the majority of humanity to suddenly want to seek wisdom and self actualization. It is much better to slowly retrain them away from high consumption lifestyles, reduce their wealth, bring them gently back down to serfdom.

The greatest wisdom required is now with the elites, to manage this process. It will be their necks on the chopping blocks if they fail.
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Re: The One Percent Pt. 2

Unread postby Hawkcreek » Mon 08 May 2017, 02:12:41

Ibon wrote:The task now is not necessarily to try to educate them and give them wisdom. When times were good they didn't go for it so we shouldn't try to ride a dead horse and expect the majority of humanity to suddenly want to seek wisdom and self actualization. It is much better to slowly retrain them away from high consumption lifestyles, reduce their wealth, bring them gently back down to serfdom.

The greatest wisdom required is now with the elites, to manage this process. It will be their necks on the chopping blocks if they fail.

I look at it a bit differently. I think humanity has always wanted to seek wisdom and self actualization.
Humanity has been actively degraded and denied the ability to go as far as they should have been able to go.
Education has been degraded, and re purposed to keep serfs only entertained, rather than teaching them how to think. Logic and debate were once a typical part of school curriculum, but that was deleted in favor of PE and music.
Every new tech ability has been turned away from its educational potentials to seek areas more beneficial to the elite. Imagine what would have happened if television had every other channel as some type of educational channel.
It is well known that our own government has promoted the drug trade to keep the population from thinking about their situation, and to line the pockets of the elite.
Every tax and fee puts more load on the middle class, and relieves the burden of the elite and corporations.
Every new law and regulation puts the populace under tighter control. Over 100,000 laws in effect, and double that in regulations, makes sure that the average citizen will commit a couple of felonies every month.
I understand how many here believe that the problems people face is because of their own choices. Because of my engineering background I know the steps to be taken to make good choices. I have prepared many spreadsheets and bid tabs to try and find the optimum solution for design choices, and the optimum equipment choice during purchase.
But how many people in today's world have that same advantage? How many have been taught by their parents that debt is equivalent to slavery? How many have even been taught even how to balance their checkbook or produce a budget.
How many have been taught self discipline about anything in life? Sure, you can develop these skills with enough work, but if you aren't taught discipline from childhood, you probably will not see the immediate value in hard work.
When you have any type of choice to make, we all call upon our experiential background to make those choices. If your background has nothing in it except neglect and commercial propaganda, how will you make your choices?
I claim that active abuse by the powerful of the world, and neglect, both parental and societal, are the major reasons for the poor choices made by the typical citizen and consumer in the world today.
And I believe that the world could be made a better place if we could focus on educating people instead of allowing them to be used as a resource for the elite.
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Re: The One Percent Pt. 2

Unread postby Ibon » Mon 08 May 2017, 08:11:34

Hawkcreek wrote:
Ibon wrote:The task now is not necessarily to try to educate them and give them wisdom. When times were good they didn't go for it so we shouldn't try to ride a dead horse and expect the majority of humanity to suddenly want to seek wisdom and self actualization. It is much better to slowly retrain them away from high consumption lifestyles, reduce their wealth, bring them gently back down to serfdom.

The greatest wisdom required is now with the elites, to manage this process. It will be their necks on the chopping blocks if they fail.

I look at it a bit differently. I think humanity has always wanted to seek wisdom and self actualization.
Humanity has been actively degraded and denied the ability to go as far as they should have been able to go.
Education has been degraded, and re purposed to keep serfs only entertained, rather than teaching them how to think. Logic and debate were once a typical part of school curriculum, but that was deleted in favor of PE and music.
Every new tech ability has been turned away from its educational potentials to seek areas more beneficial to the elite. Imagine what would have happened if television had every other channel as some type of educational channel.
It is well known that our own government has promoted the drug trade to keep the population from thinking about their situation, and to line the pockets of the elite.
Every tax and fee puts more load on the middle class, and relieves the burden of the elite and corporations.
Every new law and regulation puts the populace under tighter control. Over 100,000 laws in effect, and double that in regulations, makes sure that the average citizen will commit a couple of felonies every month.
I understand how many here believe that the problems people face is because of their own choices. Because of my engineering background I know the steps to be taken to make good choices. I have prepared many spreadsheets and bid tabs to try and find the optimum solution for design choices, and the optimum equipment choice during purchase.
But how many people in today's world have that same advantage? How many have been taught by their parents that debt is equivalent to slavery? How many have even been taught even how to balance their checkbook or produce a budget.
How many have been taught self discipline about anything in life? Sure, you can develop these skills with enough work, but if you aren't taught discipline from childhood, you probably will not see the immediate value in hard work.
When you have any type of choice to make, we all call upon our experiential background to make those choices. If your background has nothing in it except neglect and commercial propaganda, how will you make your choices?
I claim that active abuse by the powerful of the world, and neglect, both parental and societal, are the major reasons for the poor choices made by the typical citizen and consumer in the world today.
And I believe that the world could be made a better place if we could focus on educating people instead of allowing them to be used as a resource for the elite.


In so much as the vast majority are followers then yes, society can be molded and perhaps an altruistic and benevolent government could socialize and educate toward values that enhance wisdom, creativity, knowledge, fiscal responsibility, well being, holding mother nature sacred, etc. etc. This utopian ideal which is a construct in your head and quite noble unfortunately stands in stark contrast to the ubiquitous reality out there in the real world. Not a single culture, nationality, ethnic group, race,government, religion or economic system has resisted the consumption culture trend we see now spanning the planet. To say this is the fault of a controlling elite is frankly too simplistic. It is a complex interplay between a self serving elite and the masses all to willingly complying.

I really do wish it was just that simple that we have a system by design that keeps the masses subjugated and socialized to mediocrity. The solution then would be to either eliminate the elite with an egalitarian power structure or somehow turn the elite into a benevolent and altruistic authority.

Newfie challenges me to specify the mechanism that could one day after the bottle neck of collapse create a more sustainable society, I have to ask you the same. Please specify the mechanism or pathway to turn this global juggernaut of mediocrity around toward a more enlightened society.

How do you take this utopian ideal and execute it?
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Re: The One Percent Pt. 2

Unread postby Hawkcreek » Mon 08 May 2017, 13:06:12

Ibon wrote:Newfie challenges me to specify the mechanism that could one day after the bottle neck of collapse create a more sustainable society, I have to ask you the same. Please specify the mechanism or pathway to turn this global juggernaut of mediocrity around toward a more enlightened society.

How do you take this utopian ideal and execute it?

I don't believe I ever claimed that the existing structure will disappear. It is too entrenched, and will not go away without bloodshed. And I agree, that another similar structure will probably replace it.
If we wanted to work in that direction, however: :twisted:

Require that ALL political donations go into a joint fund, to be allocated equally to all parties that make the ballot. Initiate some fair requirement for making the ballot.
Require that all elected officials reside on a military base, with conditions similar to that of military officers.
Initiate firm, 4 year term limits for all offices.
Require that all lawmaker contact with lobbyists take place in a monitored conference room with recorded audio visual media available to all through the internet. Forbid any contact other than that.
Show before and after financial sheets on all candidates for any public office. Maintain and publish those sheets for 10 years after the official leaves office. Prosecute anyone who is shown to profit from his knowledge of, or influence on, the political process.
Institute a 3% interest rate (fixed) for any loan, to any person or corporate entity. Any loan for anything other than that rate, would be basis for prosecution. No free loans.
Require that all advertising be devoid of emotional tags. Must be factual only. Create a panel to insure this.
Require a 2 year public or military service period for any person who wants to vote.
Require that all persons running for election be eligible to vote.
Initiate free internet schools with accredited testing for any field of knowledge. All education would be free, but ability to benefit from some types of advanced education would be reviewed. Everyone would not be able to study particle physics at CERN.
Provide acknowledgement and certs to any and all that complete a certain number of hours of accredited education per year. This would be from birth to death. Have panels made up of educators and out of work advertising agents to push this lifelong education.
Convert existing colleges and universities to testing centers, and lab and/or hands-on learning centers.
Require a one month school on parenting for anyone desiring a marriage license. No pass, no license. Any child born to parents not passing the test would be subject to weekly social services reviews.
Either declare any real estate property as abandoned after 1 year of non use, and auction it off via gov auctions, or add a federal property tax increasing at 50% per year of non use. All proceeds to go to general fund.
Eliminate income taxes for anyone making other than a certain minimum - set a percentage figure for all other persons and corporations. No deductions.
Eliminate property taxes for any owner over 65 (for the home they live in only).
Change corporate structures to insure that any corporate illegal behavior will result in prosecution and punishment of major corporate officers, and the entire board of directors.
Change corporate pay structures to forbid payment in stock options, or perks (free use of corp jets, company assigned BMW's, etc) All incomes to be subject to income tax, if over the minimum.

Oh boy, this has been fun, but now I have to go buy a new pickup truck. My 2014 Toyota is grey, and I just hate that color.
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Re: The One Percent Pt. 2

Unread postby Ibon » Mon 08 May 2017, 14:24:45

All lovely ideas but without a clear pathway to get there this is all a mental masturbation. Feels good to imagine though.

I am thinking these days more like an ecologist than an idealist just sticking with the internal and external forces that will determine the trajectory. The elite really have a burden with an excess amount of entitled middle class whose declining standard of living will represent a huge challenge.

When the wealth pump stops flowing upwards once the economy stalls due to peak oil and consequences to human overshoot the middle class will become a liability. A percentage already are.

It will be interesting to see the cultural trends moving forward as these forces play out. Nothing urgent in the short term.
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Re: The One Percent Pt. 2

Unread postby Hawkcreek » Mon 08 May 2017, 14:53:01

Ibon wrote:All lovely ideas but without a clear pathway to get there this is all a mental masturbation. Feels good to imagine though.

One pathway is fairly clear, but it involves lots of blood to cut through the obstacles, before starting over. Not looking forward to that.
It is important to remember that we live in a organization of many interlocking systems. Therefore, a simple change to the gov system, or corp system, or tax system, has ties to things like the food system, the sickcare system, the transportation system, etc, etc.
None of the things I listed could be implemented without affecting almost all of those systems. I don't believe you could make changes to only one at a time.
It would require total and complete revolution, and I believe the elite will be making changes to drastically cut the number of peons long before that is possible.
If they screw up, and don't wipe out their opposition first, the tumbrels will roll again.
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Re: The One Percent Pt. 2

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Mon 08 May 2017, 16:06:01

Hawk, don't be caught up in the classical concept of revolution. Most conflict today is in economics, not military or insurgent battles. The UK just declared economic warfare on the rest of Europe, or will shortly, by rejecting the EU and the Euro currency. I wish them well - maybe we can ally with them again.

This at least is my hope for a peaceful resolution of the accelerating conflict with China. Because there is not enough oil and not enough other stuff of all kinds to give every Chinese citizen a Western-style Middle Class lifestyle. But the trade imbalance with China says that they are winning the war with the USA, and the rate at which they are acquiring American farmland (i.e. territorial occupation by the enemy) says that they are determined not to starve.
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Re: The One Percent Pt. 2

Unread postby Newfie » Mon 08 May 2017, 16:29:12

KJ,
Chineese owning the farmland is an interesting concept. I think they are short sighted to believe the USA will not nationalize those assets at the appropriate time.

In the meantime we have their money.
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Re: The One Percent Pt. 2

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Mon 08 May 2017, 16:53:06

Newfie wrote:KJ,
Chineese owning the farmland is an interesting concept. I think they are short sighted to believe the USA will not nationalize those assets at the appropriate time.

In the meantime we have their money.


You are wrong about us having their money. Due to the trade imbalance, they have our money. We import all manner of goods manufactured in China, and some of our money comes back and is used to purchase farms here. The container shipping is dominated by China's Cosco (China Ocean Shipping Company, not to be confused with Costco, who is one of their customers). As long as the imbalance of trade is to their benefit, they gain our territory.

Trump may change this - but it's unlikely, this is the biggest flow of wealth in the World.
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