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THE Nuclear Fusion Thread Pt. 2(merged)

Discussions of conventional and alternative energy production technologies.

Re: Fusion Idea Mentioning It Again

Unread postby radon1 » Tue 03 Jun 2014, 15:57:05

Well, who knows... It seems to be so difficult task, that from the position of day to day experience it looks virtually impossible. But the solution may come from where you least expect it. "Think out of the box", as MBA zombies say.
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Re: THE Nuclear Fusion Thread Pt. 2(merged)

Unread postby StarvingLion » Tue 29 Jul 2014, 21:21:38

Its over, people. The ITER project is DEAD. Fusion is DEAD. Steam_cannon will have to consult with William Shatner for further instruction.

One small step for man, one giant face plant for poster named Steam_cannon. Okay, moderators, you can now stop worrying about the 'Nuclear Fusion Thread Pt.3' because there aint gonna be a Pt. 3.

Senate FY 2015 DOE Office of Science Appropriations Bill
<snip>
Office of Science in the section entitled Fusion Energy Sciences is the statement: “the Committee directs the Department of Energy to work with the Department of State to withdraw from the ITER project.”
<snip>
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Re: THE Nuclear Fusion Thread Pt. 2(merged)

Unread postby StarvingLion » Tue 29 Jul 2014, 21:59:48

This is what steam_cannon said only a short while ago:

Fusion: zip???
"No. We've made great progress with fusion. Break even fusion on the laboratory device scale is so last year. Like commercial scale nuclear reactors, they need billions in investment to build. Europe is building ITER, completion scheduled for 2019,and full operation scheduled for 2027ish. Long term projects like this might be hard to imagine, but this is what success looks like. "

Hahahaha...what a load of baloney! I said that ITER crap was doomed and they just pulled the plug. Its over and out, finito...gonzo alonzo.

BIG GOVERNMENT SCIENCE IS NOW OFFICIALLY DEAD

And dreamer Kirk Sorensen thinks he's gonna get $25 BILLION to build that useless molten salt reactor from the private sector? Steam_cannon believes that hype too!!!! 8 years of LFTR hype and he has nothing to show...nothing at all. Its all proprietary and what not. Yeah, right. He's waiting for some fool to drop $10 million bucks on his head to get started. The LFTR emperor has no clothes.

And how bout that nobel laureate idiot, Robert Laughlin. *Two* books he has written and in both he has INSISTED that fusion will replace coal fired electricity generation. A supposed "smartest guy in the room" doesn't know his arse from a hole in the ground. His energy book "Powering the Future" is the funniest book I've ever read. Its complete horse manure. Here's some real knee slapper quotes:

"Thus one thing we can predict with reasonable confidence is that humans will use these robots to colonize the deep ocean"..."Robots skilled at drilling would be well suited for tapping these hydrothermal vents for use in powering undersea powerplants"..."By far the simplest way to store energy under the sea is by bubbling compressed air into tanks or bags. We might, for example, tow a big steel oil refinery tank to the appropriate spot, fill it with water so it sinks to the bottom, and then punch many openings at the base so that seawater could flow in and out. ,,,etc etc [vast energy storage system storing compressed air on the ocean bottom]..."Nuclear energy is not only likely to be cheap when the coal runs out, but also dirt cheap"..."But if one floods the world with cheap fuel rods, thus enabling anyone to make as much nuclear electricity as they would like for almost nothing, it becomes a money loser to make fuel from scratch, just as its a money loser to makes ones own gasoline from scratch"...on and on and on.

Laughlin is completely looney bird crazy. Spend everyone elses money until they are in complete poverty...and still have nothing to show for it.
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Re: THE Nuclear Fusion Thread Pt. 2(merged)

Unread postby Graeme » Wed 08 Oct 2014, 17:05:14

UW fusion reactor concept could be cheaper than coal

Fusion energy almost sounds too good to be true – zero greenhouse gas emissions, no long-lived radioactive waste, a nearly unlimited fuel supply.

Perhaps the biggest roadblock to adopting fusion energy is that the economics haven't penciled out. Fusion power designs aren't cheap enough to outperform systems that use fossil fuels such as coal and natural gas.

University of Washington engineers hope to change that. They have designed a concept for a fusion reactor that, when scaled up to the size of a large electrical power plant, would rival costs for a new coal-fired plant with similar electrical output.

The team published its reactor design and cost-analysis findings last spring and will present results Oct. 17 at the International Atomic Energy Agency's Fusion Energy Conference in St. Petersburg, Russia.
"Right now, this design has the greatest potential of producing economical fusion power of any current concept," said Thomas Jarboe, a UW professor of aeronautics and astronautics and an adjunct professor in physics.

The UW's reactor, called the dynomak, started as a class project taught by Jarboe two years ago. After the class ended, Jarboe and doctoral student Derek Sutherland – who previously worked on a reactor design at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology – continued to develop and refine the concept.


phys.org
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Re: THE Nuclear Fusion Thread Pt. 2(merged)

Unread postby Withnail » Wed 08 Oct 2014, 17:12:53

Graeme wrote:UW fusion reactor concept could be cheaper than coal

Fusion energy almost sounds too good to be true – zero greenhouse gas emissions, no long-lived radioactive waste, a nearly unlimited fuel supply.

Perhaps the biggest roadblock to adopting fusion energy is that the economics haven't penciled out. Fusion power designs aren't cheap enough to outperform systems that use fossil fuels such as coal and natural gas.

phys.org


Er, saying the economics havent pencilled out is kind of an understatement isn't it?

Fusion power designs have never done anything but consume large amounts of energy for a few microseconds of much smaller energy output.

So yeah, something so completely pointless and energy draining isn't exactly going to be cheap.

Jesus, what crap the media writes. And what a shill you are Graeme for copying and pasting such rubbish without criticism.


The design builds on existing technology and creates a magnetic field within a closed space to hold plasma in place long enough for fusion to occur, allowing the hot plasma to react and burn. The reactor itself would be largely self-sustaining, meaning it would continuously heat the plasma to maintain thermonuclear conditions. Heat generated from the reactor would heat up a coolant that is used to spin a turbine and generate electricity, similar to how a typical power reactor works.


Oh look, a perpetual motion machine.
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Lockheed Announces Fusion Breakthrough

Unread postby KingM » Wed 15 Oct 2014, 11:23:56

Normally, I discount this sort of thing as always pie in the sky, but it is Lockheed Martin, not some snake oil salesman.

Lockheed Martin Corp said on Wednesday it had made a technological breakthrough in developing a power source based on nuclear fusion, and the first reactors, small enough to fit on the back of a truck, could be ready for use in a decade.


Link here.
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Re: Lockheed Announces Fusion Breakthrough

Unread postby Henriksson » Wed 15 Oct 2014, 11:33:22

I notice nothing was mentioned whether it was actually a net energy producer, just that it was smaller.
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Re: Lockheed Announces Fusion Breakthrough

Unread postby KingM » Wed 15 Oct 2014, 11:55:01

Henriksson wrote:I notice nothing was mentioned whether it was actually a net energy producer, just that it was smaller.


I don't think "net energy producer" is a real concern when talking about real fusion. The big issues are containment and self-sustainability. Again, I'm skeptical of anything that postulates a huge change in ten years, but given the source, it's at least worth taking the claim seriously, not like the cold fusion nonsense, which is always some dude inventing perpetual motion in his garage.
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Re: Lockheed Announces Fusion Breakthrough

Unread postby Strummer » Wed 15 Oct 2014, 13:46:43

Is there any new information compared to this video they did almost two years ago?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JAsRFVbcyUY
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Re: Lockheed Announces Fusion Breakthrough

Unread postby Keith_McClary » Wed 15 Oct 2014, 13:59:08

A longer article here:

The team acknowledges that the project is in its earliest stages, and many key challenges remain before a viable prototype can be built. However, McGuire expects swift progress. The Skunk Works mind-set and “the pace that people work at here is ridiculously fast,” he says. “We would like to get to a prototype in five generations. If we can meet our plan of doing a design-build-test generation every year, that will put us at about five years, and we’ve already shown we can do that in the lab.” The prototype would demonstrate ignition conditions and the ability to run for upward of 10 sec. in a steady state after the injectors, which will be used to ignite the plasma, are turned off. “So it wouldn’t be at full power, like a working concept reactor, but basically just showing that all the physics works,” McGuire says.

An initial production version could follow five years after that. “That will be a much bigger effort,” he says, suggesting that transition to full-scale manufacturing will necessarily involve materials and heat-transfer specialists as well as gas-turbine makers. The early reactors will be designed to generate around 100 MW and fit into transportable units measuring 23 X 43 ft. “That’s the size we are thinking of now. You could put it on a semi-trailer, similar to a small gas turbine, put it on a pad, hook it up and can be running in a few weeks,” McGuire says. The concept makes use of the existing power infrastructures to enable the CFR to be easily adapted into the current grid. The 100-MW unit would provide sufficient power for up to 80,000 homes in a power-hungry U.S. city and is also “enough to run a ship,” he notes.
http://aviationweek.com/technology/skun ... or-details

It's not clear what exactly is new.

Press release:
http://www.lockheedmartin.com/us/news/p ... usion.html
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Re: THE Nuclear Fusion Thread Pt. 2(merged)

Unread postby Graeme » Wed 15 Oct 2014, 15:48:17

Lockheed says makes breakthrough on fusion energy project

Lockheed Martin Corp said on Wednesday it had made a technological breakthrough in developing a power source based on nuclear fusion, and the first reactors, small enough to fit on the back of a truck, could be ready for use in a decade.

Tom McGuire, who heads the project, said he and a small team had been working on fusion energy at Lockheed's secretive Skunk Works for about four years, but were now going public to find potential partners in industry and government for their work.

Initial work demonstrated the feasibility of building a 100-megawatt reactor measuring seven feet by 10 feet, which could fit on the back of a large truck, and is about 10 times smaller than current reactors, McGuire told reporters.

In a statement, the company, the Pentagon's largest supplier, said it would build and test a compact fusion reactor in less than a year, and build a prototype in five years.


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Re: Lockheed Announces Fusion Breakthrough

Unread postby sparky » Wed 15 Oct 2014, 16:28:21

.
If wishes were fishes everybody would be fishing !
wake me up when there is a measurable output of one minute duration
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Re: Lockheed Announces Fusion Breakthrough

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Wed 15 Oct 2014, 16:29:06

King - Interesting... thanks. But: "... could be ready for use in a decade.". Which can also be equally said: "...could be ready in more than a decade". I'm glad to see someone making the investment in the research. I just hope that not too much of that money is from the tax payers. I'll just reserve my enthusiasm for when they build the first extremely expensive small scale prototype that works. Should I live that long. LOL.
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Re: Lockheed Announces Fusion Breakthrough

Unread postby hvacman » Wed 15 Oct 2014, 17:31:47

There are so many "if this AND this AND this AND this-happen we will have success" factors to this proposal that the odds are pretty small that anything will come of it. The typical hydrogen-economy story told by hydrogen advocates also have a lot of ANDS in series that all have to happen to make it viable.

This reminds me of EEStor. Lockheed Martin was briefly involved with them, too. Here's a great article in Grist about EEStor and the bigger picture of technology fantasies and energy.

http://grist.org/business-technology/progress-rarely-glows-blue-eestor-and-the-lure-of-new-technology/
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Re: Lockheed Announces Fusion Breakthrough

Unread postby Keith_McClary » Wed 15 Oct 2014, 18:09:16

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Re: Lockheed Announces Fusion Breakthrough

Unread postby SILENTTODD » Fri 17 Oct 2014, 04:16:30

I'm old enough to remember Edward Teller predicting we would have a viable Fusion Reactor by 1975.

Image

1975 is now long gone and so is Edward Teller. But there still are no viable Fusion Reactors. :cry:
Skeptical scrutiny in both Science and Religion is the means by which deep thoughts are winnowed from deep nonsense-Carl Sagan
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Re: Lockheed Announces Fusion Breakthrough

Unread postby Timo » Fri 17 Oct 2014, 10:02:12

I give this report quite a bit of credibility. Lockheed is no start-up looking for money to develope their research. They are US military contractor, and the Pentagon has completely bought in to AGW, and PO. The military is where the money is, and they're paying for this research. The pentagon also expects results from their investments. Granted, Lockheed, nor anyone else developing fusion technology, is quite ready to announce success, but this announcement does announce significant progress in developing the technologies to get to that success. On anything fusion related, this is the brightest news, by far, that i've seen in the last 20 years. This gives me hope that i might actually live long enough to see fusion really work in a commercial capacity.
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Re: Lockheed Announces Fusion Breakthrough

Unread postby Keith_McClary » Fri 17 Oct 2014, 12:11:31

Timo wrote:The military is where the money is, and they're paying for this research.
Source???

Timo wrote: The pentagon also expects results from their investments.

The Stargate Project[1] was the code name for a project established by the U.S. Defense Intelligence Agency to investigate claims of psychic phenomena with potential military and domestic application, such as remote viewing, which is the purported ability to psychically "see" events, sites, or information from a great distance.[2]
The Stargate Project was terminated in 1995 with the conclusion that it was never useful in any intelligence operation. Information provided by the program was vague, included irrelevant and erroneous data, and there was reason to suspect that its project managers had changed the reports so they would fit background cues.[3]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stargate_Project

Timo wrote:Granted, Lockheed, nor anyone else developing fusion technology, is quite ready to announce success, but this announcement does announce significant progress in developing the technologies to get to that success.
We've been trying to figure out what is new since their announcement last year.
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Re: Lockheed Announces Fusion Breakthrough

Unread postby Newfie » Fri 17 Oct 2014, 12:19:26

I agree that LM makes it intriguing, I remain highly skeptical.

Awaiting further news.
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Re: Lockheed Announces Fusion Breakthrough

Unread postby Graeme » Wed 22 Oct 2014, 17:48:19

Here's some more news:

New details on compact fusion reveal scale of challenge

Lockheed Martin’s Revolutionary Technology team admits its new fusion reactor is at a very early stage, but sets out the reasons it is optimistic

After surprising the world with the announcement of a new nuclear fusion energy concept with the possibility of fast application at relatively low cost, Lockheed Martin has revealed more detail about the basis of its proposed compact fusion reactor (CFR). Research leader Tom McGuire of the Revolutionary Technology division of the company’s Skunk Works research base admitted that the project is four years into its progress and is still at a very early stage, and explained some of the areas where he is looking for collaborations to take the research forward.

In a telephone press conference, McGuire explained that the CFR borrows design aspects of a number of fusion concepts which in previous years have failed to fulfil their potential. Its key aspect is that it is small, ‘a few metres in diameter’, rather than the 16m radius of the ITER tokamak, the doughnut-shaped experimental reactor currently taking shape in France. ‘What’s really exciting is that we can develop it more quickly because of its scale,’ he said. ‘One of the powerful things about that is that we can start working on a full scale prototype more quickly, and in the future it cuts down the huge capital costs.’


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