Donate Bitcoin

Donate Paypal


PeakOil is You

PeakOil is You

THE Nuclear Fusion Thread Pt. 2(merged)

Discussions of conventional and alternative energy production technologies.

Re: Bubble Fusion could be real

Unread postby Timo » Thu 01 Aug 2013, 15:48:54

This story, unfortunately, reflects the true virtues of science: nothing is ever definitive, and is always up for further analysis. Big breakthroughs, like bubble fusion, are just so unpredictable. If they only followed normal conventional scientific understanding, all the speculation, and doubting, and challenges would be over in a nanosecond. Personally, i doubt the validity of the science behind this supposed breakthrough, but that is exactly the strength of scientific disciplines: validation. Breakthroughs like this can either be proven, or they can be disproven. Time will tell. Or maybe not. Maybe my Magic 8 Ball can tell me.

Heh-heh. "Check back later."
Timo
 

Re: Bubble Fusion could be real

Unread postby rollin » Thu 01 Aug 2013, 18:21:49

I didn't know that Lawrence Welk was at the cutting edge of fusion.
Once in a while the peasants do win. Of course then they just go and find new rulers, you think they would learn.
rollin
Lignite
Lignite
 
Posts: 294
Joined: Thu 06 Dec 2012, 17:28:24

Re: Bubble Fusion could be real

Unread postby jedrider » Sat 03 Aug 2013, 11:53:11

rollin wrote:I didn't know that Lawrence Welk was at the cutting edge of fusion.


And, of Time Travel, too: No one can get you back to the early 60s better.
User avatar
jedrider
Heavy Crude
Heavy Crude
 
Posts: 1103
Joined: Thu 28 May 2009, 09:10:44

BBC: Fusion Energy Milestone Passed At US Lab

Unread postby Rune » Mon 07 Oct 2013, 20:32:02

Nuclear fusion milestone passed at US lab

Researchers at a US lab have passed a crucial milestone on the way to their ultimate goal of achieving self-sustaining nuclear fusion. Harnessing fusion - the process that powers the Sun - could provide an unlimited and cheap source of energy.

But to be viable, fusion power plants would have to produce more energy than they consume, which has proven elusive.

Now, a breakthrough by scientists at the National Ignition Facility (NIF) could boost hopes of scaling up fusion.

NIF, based at Livermore in California, uses 192 beams from the world's most powerful laser to heat and compress a small pellet of hydrogen fuel to the point where nuclear fusion reactions take place.

The BBC understands that during an experiment in late September, the amount of energy released through the fusion reaction exceeded the amount of energy being absorbed by the fuel - the first time this had been achieved at any fusion facility in the world.

This is a step short of the lab's stated goal of "ignition", where nuclear fusion generates as much energy as the lasers supply. This is because known "inefficiencies" in different parts of the system mean not all the energy supplied through the laser is delivered to the fuel.

But the latest achievement has been described as the single most meaningful step for fusion in recent years, and demonstrates NIF is well on its way towards the coveted target of ignition and self-sustaining fusion.


Let the crapstorm of indignation begin.

Already, some plans have been made for a LIFE reactor, based upon what the NIF achieves and what engineering science and data the NIF produces.

I think that old saw, "Fusion is the energy of the future and it will always remain the energy of the future" is beginning to look kind of wrong.

Yes, yes, I know... "Wake me up when its at Walmart".
It takes courage to watch a film so well-done as September 11 - The New Pearl Harbor. You will never be the same. It is a new release. Five hours. Watch it on YouTube for free.
User avatar
Rune
Tar Sands
Tar Sands
 
Posts: 781
Joined: Tue 25 Mar 2008, 02:00:00

Re: BBC: Fusion Energy Milestone Passed At US Lab

Unread postby diemos » Mon 07 Oct 2013, 21:19:29

Rune wrote:Let the crapstorm of indignation begin.


How about a crapstorm of facts? Here is the latest press release from LLNL:

https://www.llnl.gov/news/newsreleases/ ... lNpRxbUkzV

In their best shot they put in;
1,700,000 Joules of laser light and got out
8,000 Joules of fusion neutrons.

Still a ways away from break even I would say.
User avatar
diemos
Tar Sands
Tar Sands
 
Posts: 784
Joined: Fri 23 Sep 2005, 02:00:00

Re: BBC: Fusion Energy Milestone Passed At US Lab

Unread postby radon1 » Mon 07 Oct 2013, 21:25:59

Some say that no one has yet found traces of post-reaction helium in that kind of facilities.
radon1
Heavy Crude
Heavy Crude
 
Posts: 1984
Joined: Thu 27 Jun 2013, 05:09:44

Re: BBC: Fusion Energy Milestone Passed At US Lab

Unread postby AgentR11 » Mon 07 Oct 2013, 21:32:13

Rune.. I'm *NOT* indignant about high energy fusion research. (wake me when at walmart, I believe is my line) In fact, its my opinion that certain scam artists divert the focus from real research to snake oil.

Now, I don't know if high energy fusion can make break even, and I doubt if the researchers know either, but its a worthwhile, non-magical line of research. My hunch is that fusion can only sustain itself in the high mass environment of a star; but I could be, and hope to be, wrong in that hunch.

That said, whats with the quotes on "inefficiencies". That's the proper term and is always part of a power generation system. Burn fuel to boil water to make steam to turn turbines, there's inefficiencies at each step that are basically losses of heat to the environment. 100% efficiency is simply impossible.
Yes we are, as we are,
And so shall we remain,
Until the end.
User avatar
AgentR11
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 6144
Joined: Tue 22 Mar 2011, 08:15:51
Location: East Texas

Re: BBC: Fusion Energy Milestone Passed At US Lab

Unread postby Rune » Mon 07 Oct 2013, 21:51:44

diemos wrote:
Rune wrote:Let the crapstorm of indignation begin.


How about a crapstorm of facts? Here is the latest press release from LLNL:

https://www.llnl.gov/news/newsreleases/ ... lNpRxbUkzV

In their best shot they put in;
1,700,000 Joules of laser light and got out
8,000 Joules of fusion neutrons.

Still a ways away from break even I would say.


Wrong story. The experiment that the BBC reported occurred in late September. The article you are linking to is dated mid-August and talks about a different set of facts.

But obviously, there is a progression of laser shots and studies going on at the NIF and I would not expect them just to cease.

Keep hoping that it will all fall flat though. You've got to keep your chin up about these things. You never know... maybe an asteroid will hit us.
It takes courage to watch a film so well-done as September 11 - The New Pearl Harbor. You will never be the same. It is a new release. Five hours. Watch it on YouTube for free.
User avatar
Rune
Tar Sands
Tar Sands
 
Posts: 781
Joined: Tue 25 Mar 2008, 02:00:00

Re: BBC: Fusion Energy Milestone Passed At US Lab

Unread postby SeaGypsy » Mon 07 Oct 2013, 22:01:27

Thanks for the clear thinking Agent. Rune is on the Koolaid again.
SeaGypsy
Master Prognosticator
Master Prognosticator
 
Posts: 9153
Joined: Wed 04 Feb 2009, 03:00:00

Re: BBC: Fusion Energy Milestone Passed At US Lab

Unread postby Rune » Mon 07 Oct 2013, 22:30:56

AgentR11 wrote:Now, I don't know if high energy fusion can make break even, and I doubt if the researchers know either, but its a worthwhile, non-magical line of research. My hunch is that fusion can only sustain itself in the high mass environment of a star; but I could be, and hope to be, wrong.


Well you don't have to hope anymore; you ARE wrong.

News is news. Facts are facts.

Over-unity was achieved when the energies that actually hit the holraum were LESS than the energies obtained

This is first time ever that technical over-unity in hot fusion has been attained. This is now a fact.

The BBC clearly said this is "one step short" of what the NIF calls "ignition", where the practical aspects, which include efficiencies of the total system are considered.

The technical hurdles are not over yet; to design a working inertial-confinement fusion reactor, these lasers would have to hit a holraum repeatedly and rapidly and there would have to be a way to capture the energy and make steam.

Clearly, there is a progression of experimentation going on at the NIF which is well worth paying attention to. I have a hunch that we have not heard the last of this from them.

So its not at Walmart yet. But this is the first time that over-unity has been achieved. No one could ever say this about fusion energy before this experiment.

It's a milestone.
It takes courage to watch a film so well-done as September 11 - The New Pearl Harbor. You will never be the same. It is a new release. Five hours. Watch it on YouTube for free.
User avatar
Rune
Tar Sands
Tar Sands
 
Posts: 781
Joined: Tue 25 Mar 2008, 02:00:00

Re: BBC: Fusion Energy Milestone Passed At US Lab

Unread postby SeaGypsy » Mon 07 Oct 2013, 22:47:04

Who has the Koolaid? Reality is boring.
SeaGypsy
Master Prognosticator
Master Prognosticator
 
Posts: 9153
Joined: Wed 04 Feb 2009, 03:00:00

Re: BBC: Fusion Energy Milestone Passed At US Lab

Unread postby PrestonSturges » Mon 07 Oct 2013, 23:56:20

We will see. Nothings creates a flood of success like the certain knowledge that a goal is in reach.

For instance, people long thought the 4:00 mile might be impossible until one guy did it. Within a few years, people were breaking the 4:00 mark all over the place because they knew they could.
User avatar
PrestonSturges
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 6052
Joined: Wed 15 Oct 2008, 02:00:00

Re: BBC: Fusion Energy Milestone Passed At US Lab

Unread postby BobInget » Tue 08 Oct 2013, 08:23:01

The sun a free fusion reactor, is already transmitting electrical energy wirelessly to earth.
BobInget
Lignite
Lignite
 
Posts: 200
Joined: Sun 12 Feb 2012, 16:46:44

Re: BBC: Fusion Energy Milestone Passed At US Lab

Unread postby rollin » Tue 08 Oct 2013, 08:47:35

Quite encouraging for the fusion community. Now they need to find a way to focus more of the input power on the fuel cell.

Successful fusion power will be a game changer, but since it will not involve a basic change in the character or nature of people or society in general; collapse is still assured. Merely a different way to get to the same end.
Once in a while the peasants do win. Of course then they just go and find new rulers, you think they would learn.
rollin
Lignite
Lignite
 
Posts: 294
Joined: Thu 06 Dec 2012, 17:28:24

Re: BBC: Fusion Energy Milestone Passed At US Lab

Unread postby Beery1 » Tue 08 Oct 2013, 09:45:52

PrestonSturges wrote:We will see. Nothings creates a flood of success like the certain knowledge that a goal is in reach.

For instance, people long thought the 4:00 mile might be impossible until one guy did it. Within a few years, people were breaking the 4:00 mark all over the place because they knew they could.


Yeah, but as Diemos says, these scientists got out less than 1/200th of the energy they needed to break even.

In the centuries before Roger Bannister broke the 4 minute mile, people were going a bit faster than 1/200th that speed. And yeah, maybe all it took was the knowledge that it could be done. But when it comes to fusion, even if we know it can be done outside of a star (which we don't), we still have to multiply the energy we have so far produced by a factor of 212 just to break even.

If it took all the folks before Roger Bannister at least 13 hours to run a mile, you might have a point.
Last edited by Beery1 on Tue 08 Oct 2013, 09:47:04, edited 1 time in total.
"I'm gonna have to ask you boys to stop raping our doctor."
Beery1
Tar Sands
Tar Sands
 
Posts: 690
Joined: Tue 17 Jan 2012, 20:31:15

Re: BBC: Fusion Energy Milestone Passed At US Lab

Unread postby efarmer » Tue 08 Oct 2013, 09:46:26

Approximately 2278 horsepower in for 10.72 horsepower
out. I do agree it is worthwhile research of course.
But we all know that the largest muscles of the body
are the rump muscles, and this horrible transfer of
energy in for energy out makes me wonder...

Think we should give the horse's asses in Congress
a shot at fusion?
User avatar
efarmer
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 2001
Joined: Fri 17 Mar 2006, 03:00:00

Re: BBC: Fusion Energy Milestone Passed At US Lab

Unread postby dorlomin » Tue 08 Oct 2013, 11:47:02

It is easy for the amount of energy being released by a fusion process to exceed that going into it. We have been doing that since November 1, 1952.

Collecting energy in a usable form is a slightly different matter. One day fusion power will be useful. But that one day is not ten years nor twenty years away.

40 or 50 years is plausible, but I would not be betting our entire civilisation on it to put it mildly.
User avatar
dorlomin
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 5193
Joined: Sun 05 Aug 2007, 02:00:00

Re: BBC: Fusion Energy Milestone Passed At US Lab

Unread postby Timo » Tue 08 Oct 2013, 12:18:33

efarmer wrote:Approximately 2278 horsepower in for 10.72 horsepower
out. I do agree it is worthwhile research of course.
But we all know that the largest muscles of the body
are the rump muscles, and this horrible transfer of
energy in for energy out makes me wonder...

Think we should give the horse's asses in Congress
a shot at fusion?


That'd be fission, not fusion. Congress can't collectively get anything done. They're all about divide and conquer. Back under the previous president, it was all United we Stand. Now, it's Hell No We Won't Stand United! Unless, of course, it's Citizen's United. Then, i't policy sold to the highest bidder. But, surely, as we're seeing now, Divided we Fail.
Timo
 

Re: BBC: Fusion Energy Milestone Passed At US Lab

Unread postby Rune » Tue 08 Oct 2013, 14:46:40

rollin wrote:Quite encouraging for the fusion community. Now they need to find a way to focus more of the input power on the fuel cell.

Successful fusion power will be a game changer, but since it will not involve a basic change in the character or nature of people or society in general; collapse is still assured. Merely a different way to get to the same end.


There you have it, folks. Peak Oil Doom is wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong.

Additionally, it is incorrect.
It takes courage to watch a film so well-done as September 11 - The New Pearl Harbor. You will never be the same. It is a new release. Five hours. Watch it on YouTube for free.
User avatar
Rune
Tar Sands
Tar Sands
 
Posts: 781
Joined: Tue 25 Mar 2008, 02:00:00

Re: BBC: Fusion Energy Milestone Passed At US Lab

Unread postby Subjectivist » Tue 08 Oct 2013, 15:25:20

I have always thought it odd that fusion research focuses almost exclusively on deuterium-deuterium or deuterium-tritium fusion. Both mixtures are gasses and handeling them can be quite problematic. On the other hand a compound of protium-lithium is a solid, stable at a broad range of temperature, and can be pre shaped into BBB sized spheres to be rargeted by inertial confinement lasers.

Not to mention that protium aka Hydrogen-1, is the most abundant substance in the known universe.

Lithium is fairly abundant and so cheap we use it in grease for general purpose bearing as well as in medications.

Fusing protium- lithium takes about the same energy input as deuterium-deuterium fusion and almost always results in two Alpha particals aka helium nuclei. This makes it much safer than d-d fusion that releases a large number of fast neutron tha make anything they react with radioactive.
II Chronicles 7:14 if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land.
User avatar
Subjectivist
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 4312
Joined: Sat 28 Aug 2010, 06:38:26
Location: Northwest Ohio

PreviousNext

Return to Energy Technology

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 20 guests

cron