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THE Nuclear Fusion Thread Pt. 2(merged)

Discussions of conventional and alternative energy production technologies.

Re: Fusion "still at least 100 years away"

Unread postby rangerone314 » Mon 22 Jun 2009, 12:00:41

Carlhole wrote:To scientists and engineers conducting experiments along a path of understanding, the knowledge that fusion energy is impossible (or impossibly uneconomic) is nearly as valuable as the technological knowledge of how to contain a ten million degree burn - the goal.

The dinosaurs were around for 250 million years; no set of intelligent eyes ever laid eyes on that long reign. Was the Earth better off that none of its creatures could contemplate themselves and their planet?

Ask the dodo bird, passenger pigeon, great auk, Steller's sea cow, desert bandicoot, etc. Ooops, you can't, humans made them extinct.

One could still argue that no set of intelligent eyes have yet laid on the Earth.

Carlhole wrote:No other life has ever had hope of comprehending anything beyond plant and prey. It's like the old Zen koan, "If a tree fell in the forest and no one was there to see it, did it really fall?"

If a tree fell and hit a deer in the head, did the deer really die?
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Re: Fusion "still at least 100 years away"

Unread postby TonyPrep » Mon 22 Jun 2009, 15:38:10

Carlhole wrote:The whole point of the Human Race is to discover fundamental properties of the environment and exploit them. By "the environment", we have now gotten to a point where tremendous focus has been placed on discovering the true nature of the universe. It's fallacious baloney to suggest that people should not be curious about what new benefits new knowledge may bestow regarding the technical challenges in the development of fusion energy and other technical projects.

The dinosaurs were around for 250 million years; no set of intelligent eyes ever laid eyes on that long reign. Was the Earth better off that none of its creatures could contemplate themselves and their planet? No other life has ever had hope of comprehending anything beyond plant and prey. It's like the old Zen koan, "If a tree fell in the forest and no one was there to see it, did it really fall?"

Anyone who argues that it is a waste of time to explore the universe and to use its principles to full advantage -- is a waste of time themselves. Because they argue that human beings should not be human beings.
There is no point to the humans race or to individual humans, except what we decide it is, either individually or collectively.

Unfortunately, the pursuit of fusion requires huge resources to be thrown at it. It is not just the time of individual scientists. So, it may not be a waste of time but it could be argued that it is a waste of resources, depending on what "point" we collectively choose for the human race or for our societies. If, for instance, we choose to build sustainable societies, then fusion may be an academic exercise and should wait in the queue, until we've sorted out a sustainable society.

Of course, if we choose not to aim for sustainability, then the whole thing might become moot, since unsustainable societies (including all of their pet projects) must end.
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Re: Fusion "still at least 100 years away"

Unread postby vision-master » Mon 22 Jun 2009, 16:00:11

There is no point to the humans race or to individual humans, except what we decide it is, either individually or collectively.


Not true.
C where we are on the cycle.

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But! we do have free-will. :)
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Re: Fusion "still at least 100 years away"

Unread postby Carlhole » Mon 22 Jun 2009, 18:57:18

TonyPrep wrote:
Carlhole wrote:The whole point of the Human Race is to discover fundamental properties of the environment and exploit them. By "the environment", we have now gotten to a point where tremendous focus has been placed on discovering the true nature of the universe. It's fallacious baloney to suggest that people should not be curious about what new benefits new knowledge may bestow regarding the technical challenges in the development of fusion energy and other technical projects.

The dinosaurs were around for 250 million years; no set of intelligent eyes ever laid eyes on that long reign. Was the Earth better off that none of its creatures could contemplate themselves and their planet? No other life has ever had hope of comprehending anything beyond plant and prey. It's like the old Zen koan, "If a tree fell in the forest and no one was there to see it, did it really fall?"

Anyone who argues that it is a waste of time to explore the universe and to use its principles to full advantage -- is a waste of time themselves. Because they argue that human beings should not be human beings.
There is no point to the humans race or to individual humans, except what we decide it is, either individually or collectively.

Unfortunately, the pursuit of fusion requires huge resources to be thrown at it.


Not true.

Human Beings possess intellectual faculties not seen anywhere else on Earth. This is the main survival mechanism for our species - BRAINS. We can engage in abstract and hypothetical thought. We can anticipate possible futures and prepare. We can research, experiment, hypothesize and learn as no other animal ever could.

So, this is the POINT of humanity's existence. There is no reason for the existence of an intelligent, highly sentient, advanced social species other than to explore the environment and the universe, exploiting whatever the environment has to offer.

As to fusion requiring "huge resources", EVERYTHING that humanity does requires huge resources. Everything requires great effort.

If you argue that there is "no point" to humanity at all, then there is no point in trying to do anything at all -- including turning back the clock of progress to some previous level of technological development.

Sorry, but arguing against exploring new possibilities ( such as converting matter into energy through fusion) is just plain silly.
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Re: Fusion "still at least 100 years away"

Unread postby TonyPrep » Mon 22 Jun 2009, 19:22:29

Carlhole wrote:Sorry, but arguing against exploring new possibilities ( such as converting matter into energy through fusion) is just plain silly.
I wasn't arguing against exploring new possibilities, just for a proper prioritisation. Fusion should be set down the list, given the likely timescale involved and the very real possibility of failure.
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Re: Fusion "still at least 100 years away"

Unread postby TheAntiDoomer » Fri 26 Jun 2009, 08:03:49

http://powerandcontrol.blogspot.com/2009/06/boys-at-talk-polywell-have-struck.html

The boys at Talk Polywell have uncovered the details of the WB-8 contract [pdf]. Those details can give us some insight into how WB-7 has gone. From the looks of things - rather well.


Fusion energy

http://www.americanthinker.com/2009/06/fusion_energy.html
So there you have it. At a cost of a few millions and about two more years of research or less we will know if we can use this method to power our civilization for the next billion years. And not just an Earth civilization. A multi-planet civilization. Exciting times.
"The human ability to innovate out of a jam is profound.That’s why Darwin will always be right, and Malthus will always be wrong.” -K.R. Sridhar


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Re: Fusion "still at least 100 years away"

Unread postby yesplease » Mon 29 Jun 2009, 19:01:10

mos6507 wrote:I still think fission breeder reactors are adequate. They are the only thing with greater EROEI than fossil fuels.
Except for renewables. ;)

Unless of course you subscribe to the practice of comparing the lifecyle EROEI of renewables to just one step, extraction for instance, of oil's lifecycle EROEI. Everything I've seen points to renewables having a much higher EROEI than oil and probably coal, not sure about NG though.
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Re: THE Fusion: Pros & Cons Thread (merged)

Unread postby TheAntiDoomer » Tue 17 Nov 2009, 09:27:15

http://nextbigfuture.com/2009/11/defens ... cy-has.htm

Defense Intelligence Agency Positive on Cold Fusion Report:

US Defense Intelligence Agency Report - Technology Forecast: Worldwide Research on Low-Energy Nuclear Reactions Increasing and Gaining Acceptance (8 page pdf)

The pdf is a VERY interesting read:


http://newenergytimes.com/v2/news/2009/ ... 11-003.pdf
"The human ability to innovate out of a jam is profound.That’s why Darwin will always be right, and Malthus will always be wrong.” -K.R. Sridhar


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Re: THE Fusion: Pros & Cons Thread (merged)

Unread postby rangerone314 » Tue 17 Nov 2009, 09:52:01

If you think palladium-based cold fusion is the future, invest in Stillwater Mining Co (SWC). They were around $9 a share, down from high of $20 in Jan 2008.
An ideology is by definition not a search for TRUTH-but a search for PROOF that its point of view is right

Equals barter and negotiate-people with power just take

You cant defend freedom by eliminating it-unknown

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Re: Lockheed's Skunk Works promises fusion power in four yea

Unread postby Rod_Cloutier » Mon 11 Mar 2013, 20:41:32

I hear they purchased the rights to the Mr. Fusion model.


In the 1985 movie 'Back to the future', the Doc time travels thirty years ahead to the future. Ie to 2015; the people in the future have 3D movies, flying cars, wall mounted TV's, and Mr. Fusion.

2 out of four ain't bad. (3D movies & wall mounted TV's) :roll:
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Re: Lockheed's Skunk Works promises fusion power in four yea

Unread postby Keith_McClary » Mon 11 Mar 2013, 22:55:55

I have one of these
Image
from when I was a kid. It's WELL beyond its half life.

I wonder if the Skunk Works is giving out the 2013 fusion version?
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Re: Lockheed's Skunk Works promises fusion power in four yea

Unread postby SilentRunning » Tue 12 Mar 2013, 00:28:44

TheAntiDoomer wrote:http://www.dvice.com/2013-2-22/lockheeds-skunk-works-promises-fusion-power-four-years

Chase didn't give a whole lot more technical detail, but he seemed confident in predicting a 100mW prototype by 2017, with commercial 100mW systems available by 2022, implying that all global energy demands will be able to be met by fusion power by about 2045.


Am I the only one here who understands metric prefix conventions? A lower case 'm' means 'milli'. Therefore 100 mW is the same as .1W - enough for a small low intensity LED. :-D

No more oil, no more coal, no more nuclear, and not even any solar or wind or hydro will be necessary (unless you're into that sort of thing): fusion has the potential to produce as much affordable clean power as we'll ever need, for the entire world. That's wild, and we may see it happen in less than a decade. That is, if Lockheed Martin's plans come to fruition, which we certainly hope they do.


I have 1 ounce of pure gold that says that Lockmart will not have a fusion unit delivering a net energy of 100 MEGA watts of power by March 11, 2017. If they do, I will give you the gold. But if they don't, you will give me 1 ounce of gold. Do we have a deal?

Time for you to put up or shut up.
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Re: Lockheed's Skunk Works promises fusion power in four yea

Unread postby SilentRunning » Tue 12 Mar 2013, 00:31:42

seahorse3 wrote:Well, I hope they are right. I have three kids and enjoy my car and power as much as the next guy. So, whatever it takes we ought to pursue this at the highest levels of Federal spending, initiative, etc.

However, the lawyer in me asks, how enforceable is this promise? Of course, everyone knows that a promise is just a promise, but it's one we should collectively pursue.


It's too bad we can't fuel the planet with empty Corny promises. If we could, all of our energy needs would be secure in perpetuity.
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Re: Lockheed's Skunk Works promises fusion power in four yea

Unread postby SilentRunning » Tue 12 Mar 2013, 00:39:50

Windmills wrote:
TheAntiDoomer wrote:Laugh all you want Pop's, but LM's Skunk Works has pumped out some huge technologies in the past including stealth technology. I'm sure this article strikes fear in doomer hearts.


If you're so sure this is going to work, then bet me. Put up or shut up. Given year after year after year after year after decade after decade after decade of failures and dashed predictions regarding fusion, I feel absolutely no fear regarding putting down a couple thousand dollars as a wager here.


I have no doubt that AD doesn't have the guts or the wherewithal to back up his words with cold hard cash.
I too would wager him one ounce of pure gold that Lockheed Martin will fail miserably to deliver a 100MEGA watt net fusion reactor by March 2017. It's currently worth ~$1600 - who knows what it will be worth in 2017 - $10,000?
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Re: Lockheed's Skunk Works promises fusion power in four yea

Unread postby Pops » Tue 12 Mar 2013, 07:27:10

TheAntiDoomer wrote:Laugh all you want Pop's, but LM's Skunk Works has pumped out some huge technologies in the past including stealth technology. I'm sure this article strikes fear in doomer hearts.

Fear?

Why would I be afraid of unlimited, non-polluting energy? My grandkids would have a helluva world!
As usual, if I'm wrong it's all good for me!

And, as usual, if you're wrong, it's all bad for you...

See how that works?


My Pop-psy opinion is you can't handle the idea of a lower energy world and come here to convince yourself only "doomers" entertain such ideas, throwing rocks is your way of "demonizing the enemy" sorta speak. Transferring your fear to me keeps you from being afraid.

I think you and OF and all the versions of SoS are afraid, otherwise you'd be off enjoying the world as we know it.

.
The legitimate object of government, is to do for a community of people, whatever they need to have done, but can not do, at all, or can not, so well do, for themselves -- in their separate, and individual capacities.
-- Abraham Lincoln, Fragment on Government (July 1, 1854)
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THE Nuclear Fusion Thread Pt. 2(merged)

Unread postby dorlomin » Tue 12 Mar 2013, 07:54:56

TheAntiDoomer wrote:Laugh all you want Pop's, but LM's Skunk Works has pumped out some huge technologies in the past including stealth technology. I'm sure this article strikes fear in doomer hearts.

In the Kelly Johnstone era, they were very innovative. But no more so than someone like Kurt Tank. What they did do was aerodynamics, not particle physics.
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Re: Lockheed's Skunk Works promises fusion power in four yea

Unread postby Pretorian » Tue 12 Mar 2013, 09:25:46

I think it would be interesting if they WILL get fusion power, be that in 4 or 40 years. What do you think will happen then? Do you think L&M will care if your grandma will be able to leave all her lights on 24/7 ? Will the government and their owners allow a private company to destroy multi-trillion dollar industries and send tens of countries back to the starvation mode? If so, in which order? Will there be a fusion bomb also as an additional perk? It just gotta be.
By the way, the nuclear technology is 70 years old and less than 15% of the countries have any access to any benefits of it whatsoever. Furthermore, most of these countries didn't build their atomic reactors, barely able to manage them and surely won't be able to close them without foreign help.
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Re: Lockheed's Skunk Works promises fusion power in four yea

Unread postby ian807 » Tue 12 Mar 2013, 15:46:48

And I promise to power the entire world's energy grid solely on pink unicorn farts in under two years!

What the heck....
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Re: Lockheed's Skunk Works promises fusion power in four yea

Unread postby MD » Wed 13 Mar 2013, 09:00:30

Pops wrote:
TheAntiDoomer wrote:Laugh all you want Pop's, but LM's Skunk Works has pumped out some huge technologies in the past including stealth technology. I'm sure this article strikes fear in doomer hearts.

Fear?

Why would I be afraid of unlimited, non-polluting energy? My grandkids would have a helluva world!
As usual, if I'm wrong it's all good for me!

And, as usual, if you're wrong, it's all bad for you...

See how that works?


My Pop-psy opinion is you can't handle the idea of a lower energy world and come here to convince yourself only "doomers" entertain such ideas, throwing rocks is your way of "demonizing the enemy" sorta speak. Transferring your fear to me keeps you from being afraid.

I think you and OF and all the versions of SoS are afraid, otherwise you'd be off enjoying the world as we know it.

.


+1
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Re: Lockheed's Skunk Works promises fusion power in four yea

Unread postby TheAntiDoomer » Wed 13 Mar 2013, 15:37:46

^Uh no. I post here to keep the naive from falling into the trap of the doomers who post here. I consider myself to be a public duty. :-D :razz:
"The human ability to innovate out of a jam is profound.That’s why Darwin will always be right, and Malthus will always be wrong.” -K.R. Sridhar


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