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THE Monsanto Thread (merged)

Re: Corn Wars

Unread postby augjohnson » Thu 20 Aug 2015, 11:52:05

As the global population continues to climb and climate change makes arable soil and water for irrigation ever more scarce, the world’s next superpower will be determined not just by which country has the most military might but also, and more importantly, by its mastery of the technology required to produce large quantities of food.


In just one sentence, they manage to show ignorance of a major contradiction; the reason that GMO corn has the higher yields isn't that it is intrinsically higher yielding but that it can take advantage of more inputs of nutrients and water which will then give higher yields. In third world countries today, the GMO Corn is failing when the farmers can't afford to provide the vastly increased nutrients and water that are required. GMO Corn isn't going to deal well with the consequences of Climate Change.
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Re: Corn Wars

Unread postby GHung » Thu 20 Aug 2015, 11:59:21

kanon: "Don't you think this is a propaganda piece?"

Since the whole idea that it's a national security issue is bullshit, well, yeah. It's not like American farmers can't still grow GMO crops because the tech and genetics have been stolen. Of course, self-important corporations like Monsanto, et al, want the rest of us to believe that their profits and trade secrets are critical to national security, never considering that industrial agriculture is likely the real threat.
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Re: Corn Wars

Unread postby Pops » Thu 20 Aug 2015, 14:14:34

Can't figure out why New Republic, known left wing rag that it is, would publish such obvious corporate propaganda to advance Monsanto's world domination?


FYI, hybridization was going on decades before GMOs came out in the late '90s. Actually the part I found interesting was about Wallace and especially his idea to inbreed corn before hybridizing to make it breed true. I hadn't know about that, Borlaug gets all the credit for overpopulation but certainly Wallace's breakthrough was the foundation for subsequent improvements. Plain old cross breeding a la Mendel and Wallace increased corn yields 700% before transgenetics making us all fat on the cheap surplus carbs starting back in the '70s, but don't let that interfere with your preconceptions of the evils of Monsanto.

Image


But hey, complaining about the cake around a mouthful is the 'merican way, so carry on...
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Re: Corn Wars

Unread postby kanon » Thu 20 Aug 2015, 15:28:23

Pops wrote:Plain old cross breeding a la Mendel and Wallace increased corn yields 700% before transgenetics making us all fat on the cheap surplus carbs starting back in the '70s, but don't let that interfere with your preconceptions of the evils of Monsanto.

But hey, complaining about the cake around a mouthful is the 'merican way, so carry on....

There you have it -- we already had good yields, but corporate power lust requires total dominion. The other point in the article that caught my eye was the reference to the very high nitrogen needs of the hybrid corn. Nitrate pollution from corn fertilizers may be far worse that fracking chemicals because it is so pervasive. Also, the dead zone in the Gulf of Mexico and toxic algae in Lake Erie.

I don't want to be an ungrateful 'merican, but since I am not in the Monsanto stable, I don't have to be dazzled by the "feed the world" BS. Though there is a certain "gee-whiz" element to industrial grain production. I do agree the article is pretty good and I did learn a few things from it. Thanks.

In a way, the Monsanto controversy is similar to peak oil. The seeming advantages and great supply of corn lead to all sorts of clever applications, economic constituencies, government support, and battles for dominance. So much is invested that we cannot address the disadvantages, even when they outweigh the supposed advantages. Now about 40% of U.S. corn is for ethanol. So we are polluting the water, spreading herbicides and pesticides, and plowing up good land simply to burn fuel in cars. It is crazy consumption. The notion that there is any "national security" or food supply issue here is purely delusional.

It is hard to comment on these articles without seeming snarky, but I really take it as a heads-up to keep in mind an under appreciated tentacle of the corporate octopus.
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Re: Corn Wars

Unread postby GHung » Thu 20 Aug 2015, 15:42:52

Pops: "...but don't let that interfere with your preconceptions of the evils of Monsanto."

The "evils of Monsanto" isn't some pre-concept I have, but is based on their corporate behavior such as suing farmers who are perfectly happy not using Monsanto products, often after it was Monsanto pollen that contaminated the farmers' crops. Pure corporate bullying. Many of these farmers had developed their own locally viable hybrids over generations of trial and error; genetic diversity perhaps gone forever due to Monsanto genetic infringement.

Then there's my local problem with roundup-ready crops and superweeds. I never saw Palmer's Amaranth (super pig weed) until about ten years ago. Now it's a common problem, out-competes native weeds (many useful as forage and wildlife food), and is more resistant to glyphosate than the so-called roundup-ready crops. Plenty to demonise Monsanto over than just it's GMOs.

Besides, I detest any entity that markets itself as the 'Savior to a hungry world". I'm having great success with OP (open pollinated) and heirloom varieties and saving my own seeds, while using drip irrigation (waters the crop; not the weeds) and biodegradable paper mulch albeit, on a small scale, which is what agriculture will likely return to. Millions are going to starve anyway, eventually. Nothing I (or Monsanto) can do about that.
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Re: THE Monsanto Thread (merged)

Unread postby Pops » Thu 20 Aug 2015, 16:26:46

Yeah, shoulda known better
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Re: THE Monsanto Thread (merged)

Unread postby PrestonSturges » Thu 20 Aug 2015, 17:17:16

One of the reasons I've cooled off on debating this issue is that when I see someone on a site telling their story about "How I'm Adjusting To Being Homeless," and I look at their profile very often they describe themselves as "environmentalist foodie" or something similar, and I think "Wow, if I spend my time arguing with people like this, I'll end up the same way," except I won't be worrying about whether the food at the soup kitchen is GMO-free and gluten-free.
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Re: THE Monsanto Thread (merged)

Unread postby davep » Fri 21 Aug 2015, 05:44:16

If you're genuinely gluten-intolerant (i.e. undiagnosable celiac disease, because you need to have been consuming gluten for a month for the test to work) you would definitely worry about whether your food is gluten-free or not.

I was bedridden for three weeks before I finally decided to try giving up gluten, and I got better within two days. I developed eczema in my forties (a side effect of celiac) and would get very ill if I subsequently unknowingly ate gluten.

The lifestyle people who bang on about feeling bloated after eating gluten are not gluten intolerant.
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Re: THE Monsanto Thread (merged)

Unread postby PrestonSturges » Fri 21 Aug 2015, 12:06:09

I've known two people with celiac and it puts a real dent in their ability to do normal things like travel on business. The first one had years of very poor health before getting a diagnosis.
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Re: THE Monsanto Thread (merged)

Unread postby careinke » Fri 21 Aug 2015, 14:51:25

My wife is Celiac, believe me, things have gotten much easier for her since Gluten Free has become such a fad. Heck, even cheerios have gone GF.
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Re: THE Monsanto Thread (merged)

Unread postby PrestonSturges » Fri 21 Aug 2015, 16:13:19

I'm aiming for a psychotic-free lifestyle. I'm avoiding another site where the guy trying to dominate the GMO discussion is literally a full-time psychopath.
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Re: THE Monsanto Thread (merged)

Unread postby davep » Sat 22 Aug 2015, 06:33:50

Curiously, I got it (or it got bad enough to feel really ill) about a year after the only time I used Roundup (and got some on my skin). I've since checked online and there is apparently a lot of debate over whether Roundup could be responsible for a lot of celiac disease.

Either that or my mainly pizza and sandwich diet working away from home at the time was the tipping point.
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Re: THE Monsanto Thread (merged)

Unread postby PrestonSturges » Sat 22 Aug 2015, 19:56:34

davep wrote:Curiously, I got it (or it got bad enough to feel really ill) about a year after the only time I used Roundup (and got some on my skin). I've since checked online and there is apparently a lot of debate over whether Roundup could be responsible for a lot of celiac disease.

Either that or my mainly pizza and sandwich diet working away from home at the time was the tipping point.

The nice lady (Stephanie Seneff) pushing that "theory" about Roundup is that programmer from MIT and she is also an antivaxxer who says on youtube that nobody should be getting vaccinated for anything. So if by "debate" you mean insane people shouting gibberish, yes. Of course, someone will say "Just because she's a militant antivaxer doesn't mean she's wrong about other things!"
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Re: THE Monsanto Thread (merged)

Unread postby davep » Sun 23 Aug 2015, 00:14:58

There were plenty of different scientific pieces. Something designed to kill stuff could easily do damage to our gut flora, with potentially negative longer-term complications.

But correlation does not imply causation. It may have been a total coincidence in my case.
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Re: THE Monsanto Thread (merged)

Unread postby Cog » Sun 23 Aug 2015, 05:51:25

It could if it was designed to kill gut flora, which it is not. Roundup is one of the most researched herbicides known to man. It is harmless to humans when applied correctly to crops.

Just one of many that I could list

http://www.google.com/url?url=http://sc ... i6pQ_-fV_g
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Re: THE Monsanto Thread (merged)

Unread postby davep » Sun 23 Aug 2015, 06:57:13

Cog wrote:It could if it was designed to kill gut flora, which it is not. Roundup is one of the most researched herbicides known to man. It is harmless to humans when applied correctly to crops.

Just one of many that I could list

http://www.google.com/url?url=http://sc ... i6pQ_-fV_g


It's a broad spectrum systemic herbicide. Your review is 16 years old. This is slightly more recent http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23224412

The effect of glyphosate on potential pathogens and beneficial members of poultry microbiota in vitro.

The presented results evidence that the highly pathogenic bacteria as Salmonella Entritidis, Salmonella Gallinarum, Salmonella Typhimurium, Clostridium perfringens and Clostridium botulinum are highly resistant to glyphosate. However, most of beneficial bacteria as Enterococcus faecalis, Enterococcus faecium, Bacillus badius, Bifidobacterium adolescentis and Lactobacillus spp. were found to be moderate to highly susceptible.
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Re: THE Monsanto Thread (merged)

Unread postby Cog » Sun 23 Aug 2015, 07:18:24

In vitro results? Test tubes. Salt is poisonous to bacteria in certain concentrations. Should we ban salt? Come now. You know damn well that you have to do animal and human studies on effects. Those have been done. The results are that the EPA and the FDA has concluded that glyphosate is not harmful to humans when applied properly to crops. Show me a peer-reviewed study that shows otherwise.

Like I originally stated, if Round-up is used in the proper application it is no threat to humans. There are many studies both in humans and animals that have confirmed this fact.

Bottom line is doomers hate corporations of all types. They hate when humans can enhance product yields by use GMO and herbicides. Why is this? My only conclusion is that doomers want more people dead than alive. At least Montequest was honest about this.
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Re: THE Monsanto Thread (merged)

Unread postby davep » Sun 23 Aug 2015, 09:58:49

If it kills beneficial gut flora and doesn't kill damaging gut flora, it doesn't need to be done on animals or humans and your salt analogy falls down.

Why jump to defend something with an ancient article you googled? Can you not entertain the idea that a poison could be potentially dangerous? I'm not anti-corporation, I'm anti-bad shit that happened to me. C Difficile etc have become more prevalent recently, which would correlate with increasing use of glyphosate. Yes, correlation does not imply causation, but it does mean more such studies are needed to gauge the extent of the risk. But you'd rather accuse me of being anti-corporate and come out with some BS about salt than actually consider mitigating potential risk.

Here's an interesting article from 2015 that goes into the ongoing risks of glyphosate http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2015/04/150422-glyphosate-roundup-herbicide-weeds/ including the increasing use for dessication, and the unknown dangers of low, long-term exposure (oh, and the UN report saying it's a potential carcinogen).
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Re: THE Monsanto Thread (merged)

Unread postby Cog » Sun 23 Aug 2015, 10:22:09

where is your peer reviewed paper that shows that round up is harmful to humans? National Geographic article does not count as a peer-reviewed paper, by the way.I can post much more recent studies on roundup if you are too lazy to do the research yourself. just let me know.
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Re: THE Monsanto Thread (merged)

Unread postby davep » Sun 23 Aug 2015, 11:00:14

Cog wrote:where is your peer reviewed paper that shows that round up is harmful to humans? National Geographic article does not count as a peer-reviewed paper, by the way.I can post much more recent studies on roundup if you are too lazy to do the research yourself. just let me know.


You cited a paper that was sixteen years old. The NG article was a synthesis of current concerns. And one of the major ones was Despite its widespread use, USGS hydrologist Paul Capel said there is “a dearth of information” on what happens to it once it is used. [in the environment]. That means there have not been studies of its impact once it gets into the environment, and hence the questions over long-term exposure.

And if you'd bothered checking the links in the article you'd see references to studies done by the WHO (for the cancer link) and others for the combined effects of glyphosate and the other agents it's combined with that are never actually tested together, yet are biologically active. Etc etc.

And are you suggesting my original link to the effects on gut flora isn't peer reviewed? If so, why? Your clown dancing routine is getting dull.
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