[LadyRuby]

Torjus, would you be willing to summarize some of what he says in English? Tusen takk.

[mididoctors]

the situation in the middle east has been serious decades and no one seems capable of doing anything about it.

Boris
london

[Eli]

That is not true the US has invaded Iraq so that they can now have free elections so democracy can spread and blossom in the region.

The international community also worked very hard to establish free elections in West Bank and Gaza.

Unfortunately it has led to the free election of Islamic radicals, I guess the US and others did not think things through very well.

Just think if more freedom and democracy were to spread to places like Egypt and Saudi Arabia for example the Islamic Radicals could run the entire Middle East.

[TorrKing]

Summary:

The fuse is burning in the Middle-east.

He says that it is a very long time, possibly decades, since the situation was this complicated, serious and more dangerous. The many single conflicts in the region has deteriorated further the last weeks: The Israeli-Arabian conflict, the conflict about nuclear weapons in Iran and the conflict between Syria and Lebanon(?).

All of this is bound together by a conflict about fundamental values, which may allow the situation to become even worse than it has become the last days.

On a question on what can be done:

He thinks the UN chief of secretary and the security council can and will play an important role in calming the crowds.

--------

Maybe not the most constructive solution?

Torjus Gaaren

[emersonbiggins]

Just think if more freedom and democracy were to spread to places like Egypt and Saudi Arabia for example the Islamic Radicals could run the entire Middle East.

Ehhh, at least it would clarify those countries' official associations with radical Islam. After all, if a country is able to elect militants into power, it becomes much easier to build a world consensus against that country's expansion of power into neighboring states (if there ever were such a thing). In a region with Western-friendly puppets currently at the helm (against their own public's wishes, mind you), the situation is far too love-hate to actually project proper responses to terrorism in those countries. All but one of the 9/11 hijackers was from SA. Need I say more?

[shakespear1]

Could anyone seriously think that with all the "pro-Arab" actions in the past ( Bosnia, Chechnia, Palestinians etc. ), that the Democratic results would reflect anything but what we see in the Palestinian elections?

These people are tired of anyone that hints at cooperation with the West. Why? Because in most cases they have been shafted in the end. They are ready for something new is what this is showing.

Now the cartoons are just the extra straw on the camels back that may break its back. Time will tell, but the Western image is definitely not improving by this stupid show of Freedom of Speech.

Check what happens to you if you broach certain topics with regard to history in Austria. Answer: You land in jail!!! Topic of Interest: The Holocaust. Sad but true

If you look deep and close at what goes not you will notice that Freedom of Speech means different things in different place and circumstances. Even in the US you can protest but FAR FAR FAR away from the Mr. Bush and his people. These are not the 60's any more. How Sad!!!!

Democracy cuts both ways so if you wish for it than respect the results.

[satjeet]

And we in the US have a "freely" elected radical Christian regime ... so much for mob rule.

[GoIllini]

And we in the US have a "freely" elected radical Christian regime ... so much for mob rule.

If President Bush represents Christianity, then the terrorists represent Islam. Obviously, neither is true.

Jesus preached peace, loving neighbors, and taking care of the poor. It really doesn't look like Bush or the Republicans stand for Christian ideals in any way shape or form. And the Evangelicals are starting to wake up to this.

If anyone's interested in finding out what's really going on with Christianity, I'd encourage them to get Jimmy Carter's take on the matter. He, as well as I, believe that the Christian Right is a symptom of Republicans and televangelists hijacking Christianity for political and financial gain over the past 30 years. Recently, he's written a book, called "Our Endangered Values" that talks about this, but he's also talked about this as a guest on various talk shows.

[Leanan]

I can't read Norwegian, but judging from the English stories I've read...what a mess.

From Afghanistan to Indonesia, tens of thousands of Muslims around the world have launched a series of new protests -- some violent -- over cartoons depicting Prophet Mohammed. Provincial authorities in Lagman, Afghanistan, said one protester died in a protest there after clashes broke out between demonstrators and police.

CNN

[seahorse2]

Keep in mind the American military doesn't like cartoons anymore than their arab counterparts. Remember, the Joint Chiefs of Staff recently protested a cartoon run in the Washington Post depicting a wounded soldier and Rummy. The Pentagon said the cartoon made fun of wounded servicemen, but the cartoon was really an attack on a broken military. All those arguments aside, even Americans don't like cartoons that they deem unfavorable.

Washington Post

[Fishman]

I don't think this situation in the Middle East will be a US problems alone. It looks to me that NATO may get involved, NATO country embassies have been burned, Iran puts Europe at more threat with nukes than the US, NATO countries have had radical Islam bombings. You will find that as each country gets attacked their population will become much more conservative and quicker to strike back, sort of what you lay blame on the US.
On another front , Freedom of the Press which has routinely whacked Jews and Christians is now confronting conservative Islam. The liberals must have their knickers in quite a bind. How can they blame Bush for their liberal press doing rather mild cartoons against Islam and getting such a response from the Middle East?

[lsu2001]

Keep in mind the American military doesn't like cartoons anymore than their arab counterparts. Remember, the Joint Chiefs of Staff recently protested a cartoon run in the Washington Post depicting a wounded soldier and Rummy. The Pentagon said the cartoon made fun of wounded servicemen, but the cartoon was really an attack on a broken military. All those arguments aside, even Americans don't like cartoons that they deem unfavorable.

Washington Post

I agree that nobody likes cartoons when they are the butt of the joke but I don't seem to recall any buildings being burned down or anyone dying over the pentagon's protests.
Tim

[seahorse2]

Have you seen Iraq lately? Or what happened to China's embassy in Serbia? I don't want to digress from the purpose of this topic. I just used the two above examples to argue what the Arabs would argue, which is, the Pentagon is burning lots of stuff. Just depends on which side of the ocean one is on to see it as either justified or not.

[DantesPeak]

No link for this, sorry.

2/6/06 Agence Fr.-Presse 16:41:00

AGENCE FRANCE PRESSE ENGLISH WIRE
Copyright 2006 Agence France-Presse

February 6, 2006

Middle East 'a powder keg': Oslo Accords diplomat


OSLO, Feb 6, 2006 (AFP) - The situation in the Middle East is at its most critical stage in decades, a Norwegian diplomat who was instrumental in bringing about the Oslo Peace Accords said on Monday.

"In a lot of respects, the region today can be compared to a powder keg with a lit fuse," said Terje Roed-Larsen, the former United Nations Special Coordinator for the Middle East Peace Process and a key figure in the now all but defunct 1993 Oslo Peace Accords between Israelis and Palestinians.

"I think the situation is more difficult, more complicated and more dangerous than it has been in a number of decades," he told public radio NRK.

Among the smoldering crises in the area the diplomat listed the ongoing clash between Israel and Palestinians, the dispute over Iran's nuclear ambitions and continued tensions between Lebanon and Syria.

"All of this raises questions of fundamental values and opinions that could lead to the situation getting even more out of control than it has in recent days," he said, implicitly referring to massive Muslim protests across the region against Danes, Norwegians and other Europeans over the publication of caricatures of the Prophet Mohammed.

Violent reactions to the cartoons, which first appeared in Danish daily Jyllands-Posten and which are considered blasphemous by Muslims, have included the torching of the Danish missions in Damascus and Beirut.

Norway, where the images were first republished, also saw its Damascus embassy set alight over the weekend.

And a related story -
Dude, where's my Olso Accords???

1/27/06 Agence Fr.-Presse 17:41:00

AGENCE FRANCE PRESSE ENGLISH WIRE
Copyright 2006 Agence France-Presse

January 27, 2006

No trace of Oslo accords documents in Norway's archives: researcher


OSLO, Jan 27, 2006 (AFP) - A researcher hoping for insights into the confidential 1993 Israeli-Palestinian Oslo accords said on Friday she failed to find a single shred of paper about the deal in official archives in Norway, which mediated the talks.

The Oslo accords, negotiated secretly in the Scandinavian country, recognized the right of the Palestinian and Israeli peoples to coexist peacefully.

"There isn't a single document in the archives of Norway's ministry of foreign affairs about the talks between Israelis and Palestinians between January and August 1993 in Norway," researcher Hilde Henriksen Waage told AFP, confirming an earlier report in weekly magazine Ny Tid.

"Not a single word," she added.

Henriksen Waage was given access to the official archives to write a government-commissioned study on Norway's role in the talks, which was published in 2004.

"This means that there is absolutely no official trace of one of the most important episodes in the history of Norwegian diplomacy," she said.

The key Norwegian mediators, Jan Egeland, Terje Roed-Larsen and Mona Juul, meanwhile told Norwegian media that they only had "private" documents in their possession.

[shakespear1]

Code: Select all

I agree that nobody likes cartoons when they are the butt of the joke but I don't seem to recall any buildings being burned down or anyone dying over the pentagon's protests.
Tim

I agree Tim, but in the West it is done a bt different.

How about Cindy Sheehan recently as an example

What Really Happened

[lotrfan55345]

That is not true the US has invaded Iraq so that they can now have free elections so democracy can spread and blossom in the region.

rofl

[hoplite]

And you all are surprised to learn that the practicioners of the "religion of peace" can't handle free speech? Do you know what "Islam" means?

Islam, directly translated means "SUBMISSION".

Hence the Muslim principle of "conversion" (under pain of death) ie; CONVERT or DIE. It's that simple. They live in the 7th century. That's HOW THEY THINK. Wake up liberal smack tards!

[GoIllini]

And you all are surprised to learn that the practicioners of the "religion of peace" can't handle free speech? Do you know what "Islam" means?

Islam, directly translated means "SUBMISSION".

Hence the Muslim principle of "conversion" (under pain of death) ie; CONVERT or DIE. It's that simple. They live in the 7th century. That's HOW THEY THINK. Wake up liberal smack tards!

As a Christian, I honestly believe that every other religion is going to run into problems that Christ's teachings can address.

Our current system of free speech was a direct result of Christianity. Admittedly, it was a result of differences between various Christian denominations in England. And letting everyone have religious freedom and free speech is something that ultimately prevents religious wars.

At the same time, however, dealing with religious fundamentalism isn't a conservative vs. liberal thing. It's an American thing. Religious fundamentalism, both at home, and abroad, are tools that powerful people use to control others- when in reality, I'd like to think we should all be controlled by the holy spirit. Religious control is something that goes against American values, and we need to work against both in Christianity and in Islam.

You seem like you might also be a Christian. When you read, "submit to [God's will]," (Hebrews 12:9) what does that mean for you? Does it mean following the "literal translation" that Christian-right "leaders" use as an excuse to take Bible verses out of context and use them for political gain? Or does that mean understanding the Bible in-context and seeking to follow in Christ's footsteps?

If George Bush is a Christian, I have doubts about him being a good one. He doesn't "submit to authority" (Romans 13:1). I'd like to think a good Christian would be above reproach in submitting to the authorities, but there are so many doubts about Bush's ability to honor the constitution and follow the rule of law that it isn't even funny. Arguing that "we need to take Islam seriously" isn't a justification for doing things that might be illegal.

[shakespear1]

I would use the " one step forward and then two backward " approach . The Danes should have given some sort of apology and let it go. Next time be stubborn a bit. However this was allowed to escalate precariously because we are dealing with a cultural divide and the side practicing "free speech" has no appreciation or the sensitivity with regard to the other culture. I think more was lost than gained by this idiotic behavior.

But I still think that on this issue we the WEST are as hypocritical as they are at time. We talk Free speech but issues such as Sudan, Chechnia, and renditions have evaporated into the infinite space. Involvement of German gov. in Iraq and this sorry rendition crap is no where to be seriously exposed. These are situations that are still going on but have disappeared from the main stream media hence the Western conscience.

Some Arab elements on the other hand see themselves fully justified to attack Western civilians for injustices they feel are caused by their governments. They would be better off not buying Western goods and thus find more sympathy. Perhaps this would build up their own industries. However this is all wishful thinking as we humans are full of contradictions.

[shakespear1]

Reading the following article leads me to believe that the situation has potential to get very messy very fast if Iran is hit. It could spill beyound Afganistan - Middle East area.

The Taliban's bloody foothold in Pakistan
By Syed Saleem Shahzad

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"If this military strategy is implemented it would have serious consequences for the allied forces in Afghanistan, especially at a time when they are mounting pressure on Iran," commented an intelligence analyst. "However, the Taliban made tall claims about winter suicide attacks, but barring a few events they failed to inflict major losses on allied forces."

That was before the Taliban secured a base in North Waziristan, though. This time around could see a very different outcome.


Article