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THE Middle East (general) Thread (merged)

For discussions of events and conditions not necessarily related to Peak Oil.

Unread postby sklump » Sat 28 May 2005, 08:16:58

Nuke Fallujah ? k_semler, you really, really need a woman in your life. Mercifully, not even the current cabal in charge was that crazy.
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Unread postby RonMN » Sat 28 May 2005, 08:58:46

Why are the "rules" only supposed to apply to US???

I didn't see any "rule" following when those bastartds were cutting heads off...or hanging slain American contractors from a bridge.

Personally i think it's time to dull our butterknives & saw a few heads off on film...Lets see the reaction to that.
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Unread postby RonMN » Sat 28 May 2005, 09:21:10

WOW! was that a great article! Thanks Specop.
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Unread postby Specop_007 » Sat 28 May 2005, 09:44:17

RonMN wrote:Why are the "rules" only supposed to apply to US???

I didn't see any "rule" following when those bastartds were cutting heads off...or hanging slain American contractors from a bridge.

Personally i think it's time to dull our butterknives & saw a few heads off on film...Lets see the reaction to that.


Your forgetting something Ron.
The 194x (cant remember right off) GC technically doesnt apply to us, however no world leader could possibly stand in front of the world and say they werent going to abide by the GC. So, its arguable whether the 194x GC applies to us. Most say yes, simply from a moral perspective, but technically it shouldnt.

In this case, the napalm, the GC CLEARLY does not apply to us. We could burn entire cities and nothing could be done by any power or "World court" as it were. The law DOES NOT apply to us in using napalm, regardless of who says otherwise. And there is absolutely no question to the fact it doesnt apply to us.
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Unread postby The_Virginian » Sat 28 May 2005, 12:52:35

The_Virginian wrote:
Come back in 20 years and we'll see. 5crackup

Specialneeds007 wrote:
We'll see in regards to whether the rules apply to us, or whether Iran is gonna make a big glowing parking lot out of Isreal?



In regards to the USA changing the Arab/Muslim mentalty and culture.

as for geneva conventions, as Kaiser Wilheilm was proported to say "it is only a scrap of paper.."

It is only as good as the countries signed on the dotted line, or by those who use it to do their own Privateering in enforcement.

My prediction, the Occidental world will fail most miserably to change the Arab/Muslim mentality. They may change their music, chlothes, and ride a harley...but the fundemental philosophy will remain.

The USA will tire of the G-War when A) Iraq runs well past peak B) Suadi is in trouble (annother G-war waiting in the works), C) The USA economy can no longer support a war, maybe because Carabean banks buying USA debt reveal their "investors"... maybe because of the switch to Euro... D) Iran really does turn the conflict nuclear, and the petroelum is inacessible.
[urlhttp://www.youtube.com/watchv=Ai4te4daLZs&feature=related[/url] "My soul longs for the candle and the spices. If only you would pour me a cup of wine for Havdalah...My heart yearning, I shall lift up my eyes to g-d, who provides for my needs day and night."
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Unread postby Specop_007 » Sat 28 May 2005, 20:07:15

The_Virginian wrote:
The_Virginian wrote:
Come back in 20 years and we'll see. 5crackup

Specialneeds007 wrote:
We'll see in regards to whether the rules apply to us, or whether Iran is gonna make a big glowing parking lot out of Isreal?



In regards to the USA changing the Arab/Muslim mentalty and culture.

as for geneva conventions, as Kaiser Wilheilm was proported to say "it is only a scrap of paper.."

It is only as good as the countries signed on the dotted line, or by those who use it to do their own Privateering in enforcement.

My prediction, the Occidental world will fail most miserably to change the Arab/Muslim mentality. They may change their music, chlothes, and ride a harley...but the fundemental philosophy will remain.

The USA will tire of the G-War when A) Iraq runs well past peak B) Suadi is in trouble (annother G-war waiting in the works), C) The USA economy can no longer support a war, maybe because Carabean banks buying USA debt reveal their "investors"... maybe because of the switch to Euro... D) Iran really does turn the conflict nuclear, and the petroelum is inacessible.


Took longer then I thought it would to get to the ad hominems. But there they are!
You guys crack me up. Cant win by logic, so appeal to emotion and throw personal attacks.

I love it.

I will add, its funny you mention signed the dotted line. America never signed the dotted line.
Next time dont be a typical liberal. Dont just throw personal attacks as soon as someone disagrees with you.
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Unread postby arretium » Sun 29 May 2005, 05:47:56

Specop_007 wrote:Took longer then I thought it would to get to the ad hominems. But there they are!
You guys crack me up. Cant win by logic, so appeal to emotion and throw personal attacks.


I read his comments three times and I failed to see the ad hominem attack. Using my best sarcasm: perhaps you could steer your superior intellect in my favor and point out exactly how that was an ad hominem attack? I'd be grateful. ;).
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Middle East to ditch gasoline

Unread postby baldwincng » Fri 02 Sep 2005, 08:43:45

3 years ago, with oil at $22/bbl, whilst Iran (and Egypt) wanted CNG, they could not afford it because petrol was only about 5 p/litre and price could not easily be increased for political reasons (eg risk of causing unrest amongst the population).

Now oil is $70/bbl, it is estimated that the cheap petrol subsidy is costing Iran about $3.5 - 4 billion a year!! Similarly big number for Egypt too.

Iran has huge local gas resources, 2nd largest in the World, Egypt also has a lot of gas. Relatively little gas is used at present in these countries (no need for central heating which is main use of gas).

Makes sense for these countries to run all their cars and buses and trucks and trains on CNG. You can get all the CNG infrastructure you'd need for a years worth of subsidy and its very easy and cheap to convert a spark ignition petrol engine to CNG.

By 2020, the Middle East will run most of its vehicles on CNG.....after all,
its economics, stupid.


Of course, greatly improves air quality too which is an added benefit that comes free and helps to make CNG very popular wherever it is introduced big style (eg New Delhi).

In the West, Germany is leading in relation to CNG growth, with 800 new CNG filling stations built in last 3 years! Take a look at the new General Motors Zafira that is shortly being launched in Germany. Given the problems with diesel supply, this comes at a great time.

http://www.ngvglobal.com/index.php?opti ... =2&lang=en
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Re: Middle East to ditch gasoline

Unread postby Specop_007 » Fri 02 Sep 2005, 09:25:11

Ha.
And America is just now pushing diesel as an alternative to gas. :oops:

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Re: Middle East to ditch gasoline

Unread postby gnm » Fri 02 Sep 2005, 09:41:27

Oh yeah what a brilliant move for Europe since they have huge NG resources and aren't dependent on NG imports...NOT

Hello it gets cold as hell in Iran. I suspect it will quickly become very popular for central heating... Or they could always use the waste hest from thier nuke plant. :twisted:

Way to go people, shift to another non-renewable fuel!

-G
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Re: Middle East to ditch gasoline

Unread postby deconstructionist » Fri 02 Sep 2005, 10:19:54

massachusetts has enacted a plan to switch 50% of public works vehicles to CNG soon. it's totally economics. if they cared about sustainability they'd switch to biodiesel. this is a short-term fix to a long-term problem.
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Re: Middle East to ditch gasoline

Unread postby peaker_2005 » Fri 02 Sep 2005, 13:16:40

gnm wrote:Way to go people, shift to another non-renewable fuel!

-G


Hey, it'll be coal next. I don't know whether to laugh or cry about that... :!:
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Re: Middle East to ditch gasoline

Unread postby Snowrunner » Fri 02 Sep 2005, 14:15:10

deconstructionist wrote:massachusetts has enacted a plan to switch 50% of public works vehicles to CNG soon. it's totally economics. if they cared about sustainability they'd switch to biodiesel. this is a short-term fix to a long-term problem.


Biodiesel isn't more sustainable than other sources of Energy storage. Reason being that you still need to find a way to generate it.

Sure, the crop grows by itself (if you don't put fertilizer on it, use a tractor to harvest it etc.) but you still need to refine it which takes energy.

Considering that we may see a drop in crop productivity in the near future with fertilizer etc. becoming more expensive, do we really want to misuse good soil that could produce food to power a car?
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Re: Middle East to ditch gasoline

Unread postby backstop » Fri 02 Sep 2005, 14:29:12

Snowrunner -

I have to agree with you 100% on this. Depleting arable soils for liquid fuel production is folly.

This affirms the need for the use of every scrap of marginal hill land available for deciduous forestry.
Specifically coppice forestry where the trees regrow from the stump 20% faster than a new tree. (root-ball effect).
The coppice-pole produce converts to Methanol at around 65% by weight.
Methanol in a Fuel Cell gives about the same mileage/gl as petrol in an ICE.

And for 50 years, (just like on this site), this option has been ignored !

regards,

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Re: Middle East to ditch gasoline

Unread postby gnm » Fri 02 Sep 2005, 14:32:25

Ya got a ICE-output sized methanol fuel cell to sell me for say $5k backstop? Why not just burn the methanol in an ICE?

-G
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Re: Middle East to ditch gasoline

Unread postby baldwincng » Fri 02 Sep 2005, 15:32:37

oh yeah what a brilliant move for Europe since they have huge NG resources and aren't dependent on NG imports...NOT


Natural gas comes from much more diverse sources than oil which is all pretty much going to be within 500 miles of Mecca by 2020. Germany fixed its duty on natural gas at a very low level until 2020 because it does not want to be completely, 100%, dependent on scarce Middle East oil at that time.

Hello it gets cold as hell in Iran. I suspect it will quickly become very popular for central heating... Or they could always use the waste hest from thier nuke plant
.

Re cold Iran, the Iranians can use the money they get from oil sales to install central heating too! Not sure how cold it gets in Egypt though!


Way to go people, shift to another non-renewable fuel!


Natural gas in the form of bio-gas is the simplest renewable fuel there is.

massachusetts has enacted a plan to switch 50% of public works vehicles to CNG soon. it's totally economics. if they cared about sustainability they'd switch to biodiesel. this is a short-term fix to a long-term problem


Actuallly, biogas is much better than bio-diesel - all western countries generate lots of this from their waste, it can provide 5 - 10% of transportation needs, no technical issues with that. Burn it in vehicles is a very efficient use, works out at negative GHG emissions by capturing it.

http://www.civitas-initiative.org/measu ... n=en&id=62

All bio-gas should be captured for transportation use. Sweden is a good example too:

http://www.agores.org/Publications/City ... nglish.pdf

Once you have national CNG programmes - as in Germany and Iran - you can easily use bio-gas for road transport as there are a critical mass of vehicles. Easy.
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Re: Middle East to ditch gasoline

Unread postby backstop » Fri 02 Sep 2005, 21:50:33

gnm -

nope - sadly I can't sell you one this week - sold out you know . . .

the reason I put in this option is that methanol can be used for fuel cells (I've yet to hear of an Ethanol FC) which are that much more efficient than ICE.

In the interim, yes, it could of course be /is burned in ICE, (though mostly for entertainment !)

regards,

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Re: Middle East to ditch gasoline

Unread postby Starvid » Sun 04 Sep 2005, 15:45:13

I think vehicle fuel is the only acceptable use for natural gas. All other uses are wasteful, as perfectly useful, economic alternatives exist both for electricity generation and heating.
Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
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Re: Middle East to ditch gasoline

Unread postby Liamj » Mon 05 Sep 2005, 06:44:45

I'm a perennial cellulose to ethanol fan too, but think its just not where ppl are at - nobody yet wants to consider how many ha of trees to coppice per gallon, too glaring shows our waste. The need for revegetation on ALL the settled continents is pressing in any case, would moderate climate change and buffer against extreme weather, never mind preserving irreplacalbe soils.

Believe NG still used for a lot of fertiliser production, are wheels more important than food? Sometimes, certainly, but..
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Re: Middle East to ditch gasoline

Unread postby baldwincng » Mon 05 Sep 2005, 07:02:59

I think vehicle fuel is the only acceptable use for natural gas. All other uses are wasteful, as perfectly useful, economic alternatives exist both for electricity generation and heating


Even though I am a 'gas man', I partially agree with this, though I think natural gas is acceptable for chemicals production and when it is used efficiently, eg CHP. It is also OK in central heating in cold places like UK, provided used efficiently (lots of insultation, condensing boilers).

We need to build as many nuclear plants as possible, aiming to catch up with France rather than relying on France to make all Europe's electricity! The gas fired CCGTs that we have in UK can then be closed down, freeing up that gas for central heating and transportation.

We also need as many windmills as possible, as much solar as possible, as much conservation as possible, even tidal and wave if we can do it. Also bio-fuels seem to make sense if there is land available.

Coal is OK too for power generation - though there is a downside if you worry about global warming (not sure I do as much given I believe in peak oil....gas price increase in UK is equal to a 1000% increase in the UK's Climate Change Levy!....that will obviously reduce CO2 emissions). I am sceptical of the BP scheme to put CO2 in the Miller Field - looks a bit like the hydrogen fuel cell bus London has. In the press every day, driven by the PR department.

I have to smile when EU says it is giving its clean coal and CO2 sequestration technology to China!! Exactly what is that then? Its not exactly rocket science, take the CO2, put it down a well into the ground!! If China can make DVD players for about $5 they can manage that I think!!

Oil can be saved for much more valuable uses than road transportation in cities and on main highways (where CNG is readily available)
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