[dinopello]

There is that saying...

"You can't win. You can't break even. You can't get out of the game."

[emailking]

1. Energy is conserved.

(dU = dQ + dW)

2. The disorder in the universe (or an isolated system) will never decrease. It will increase unless you're really, really careful.

(dS >,= dQ/T with = for reversible process)

3. No laymen's explanation. Entropy of an isolated system appraoches a universal constant as the absolute temperature approaches zero.

(S = k*ln(Omega) )

Edit: I guess for 3 you could say...things slow down as it gets colder.

But it's not if you drop it, it breaks. That's #2.

[bobcousins]

Does the layman actually need to know anything about the laws of thermodynamics? Apart from it's some technical stuff scientists use?

All you need to know is:

1. Every dynamic process (life, machines) requires energy

2. Energy that is economically accessible is limited

3. So don't waste it.

[rogerhb]

Does the layman actually need to know anything about the laws of thermodynamics?

[web]http://www.homesweethomefront.co.uk/images/gif/hshf_img_journey.gif[/web]

[Doly]

...we don't talk about Thermodynamics.

The second rule of Thermodynamics is, we don't talk about Thermodynamics.

Hey, one of your favorite moderators breaks that rule all the time. How are you going to punish him?

[rogerhb]

How are you going to punish him?

By boiling?

[Vexed]

"You can't win. You can't break even. You can't get out of the game."

Mirrors on the ceiling
Pink champagne on ice
And she said
We are all just prisoners here
Of our own device
And in the master's chambers
They gathered for the feast
They stab it with their steely knives
But they just can't kill the beast
Last thing I remember
I was running for the door
I had to find the passage back to the place I was before
Relax said the nightman
We are programed to recieve
You can check out any time you like
But you can never leave

[MadMarcus]

Go to Rice.
Take Thermo your sophmore year.
Scream the primal scream.

Try to forget the experience as quickly as absolutely possible.

Go Owls!
Team Wiess!

I loved thermo but I had the hard core theoretical version not the mechanical engineering version. Great class.

[rwwff]

Go to Rice.
Take Thermo your sophmore year.
Scream the primal scream.

Try to forget the experience as quickly as absolutely possible.

Go Owls!
Team Wiess!

I loved thermo but I had the hard core theoretical version not the mechanical engineering version. Great class.

Baker.

I did pure Math and filled in my hours with lots of Junior/Senior History, Religious Studies, Accounting, etc. I wonder, from time to time, if that was the right decision as there were several engi courses (mostly EE) I sometimes wish I had taken, though I've been well served by the skill set I ended up with.

I just don't want to give the impression that *I* took Thermodynamics.

I do remember several friends of mine undergoing a bit of shock as they hit thermo and got their first hard dose of engineering education.

[Aimrehtopyh]

"This is your life and it's ending one minute at a time."
"Even the Mona Lisa is falling apart."
"...everything's a copy of a copy of a copy."
"On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero."

Sounds like entropy to me.

[Graeme]

Update on the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics

With the recent rise in interest in alternative energy technologies and other breakthrough clean technologies has come the inevitable rise in questionable business ideas promising unbelievable benefits: "free" energy, "free" electricity, etc. Let's just call these the "Huh" companies -- they typically invite people to sign up to be an early customer for free (just, hey, you will need to write a big deposit check, but you know, you'll get that back, no worries...), so what's not to like?

Any venture capital financing deal is typically the result of a very thorough diligence process, where any business model or technology that can't withstand deep scrutiny will not pass muster. And VCs are by nature pretty jaded on all this kind of wild-eyed stuff. So the "Huh" companies typically don't get venture funding, and cleantech VCs don't pay much mind to them. But as the cleantech sector grows, VCs are going to need to be concerned about the "Huh" companies, simply because when they inevitably implode it can have negative impacts on the overall market acceptance of related, serious approaches -- many of which the VCs have actually backed.

A few illustrative examples:

goingon

[Plasma]

Many modern day physicists are re-visiting the Aether in the name of zero point energy, quantum foam and vacuum potential.

Since cancelling gravity has not been done (not publicly acknowledged anyway), it is not inconceivable that a gravity-cancellation technology could be used in the production of energy.

The electrical flying machine was Tesla's life long dream you don't hear much about. The name he had for it was his 'flivver'. Although most literature claims it was his VTOL craft, it was really his electrogravitic machine. Read the book, Pentagon Aliens, if you want to know the fascinating story.

If you research enough, you may come to believe that what is 'common knowledge' in physics as to what is possible and what is not, may not necessarily be accurate.

Here are a few links related to the Aether you may find interesting and mind expanding.
http://www.16pi2.com/
http://montalk.net/notes/the-etheric-or ... -magnetism
http://www.rialian.com/rnboyd/subquantum.htm
http://home.wanadoo.nl/raccoon/

As Tesla once said, 'One day mankind will connect his machines to the very wheelworks of nature.'

[bobcousins]

If you research enough, you may come to believe that what is 'common knowledge' in physics as to what is possible and what is not, may not necessarily be accurate.

"There is one born every minute"

This is the principle by which the dubious companies like Steorn operate, and it's as reliable to getting investment as the laws of thermodynamics are to physics.

[Plasma]

Is the one who believes everything has been invented or is known or even that everything they have 'learned' is the truth and is incapable of unlearning and re-learning.

Lots of people thought heavier than air flight, nuclear power, radio, etc were impossible. Just because YOU think you know something is impossible...doesn't make it so.

Yeah, there's one born every minute...those who KNOW what can't be done, because someone told them so.

[EnergyUnlimited]

Is the one who believes everything has been invented or is known or even that everything they have 'learned' is the truth and is incapable of unlearning and re-learning.

Lots of people thought heavier than air flight, nuclear power, radio, etc were impossible. Just because YOU think you know something is impossible...doesn't make it so.

Yeah, there's one born every minute...those who KNOW what can't be done, because someone told them so.

I am not worried about free energy machines.
They cannot be made by laws of physics, and if some fools wish to spend money on them, by me it is fine.
Spending money on nonsense and hoping that nonsense will save a world will end up party faster.

BTW, we are in great need to end up that party asap, so any idea to help us get there is welcome.
So lets invest in free energy machines!

[shortonoil]

bobcousins said:

"There is one born every minute"

Energy from the vacuum is real, the Chasmere Effect has proven it over, and over again. What has not been definitely determined is the energy density of the vacuum. Some have estimated that there is enough energy from the vacuum in a glass of water to boil all the oceans of the world. Other calculations seem to show that it may only be a nominal amount. But, if energy production from the vacuum does ever occur it would not violate any Laws of Thermodynamics, it would just be recognition of a new energy source. To a Clovis era hunter/gather, petroleum would have appeared as an unimaginable energy source. To Homo erectus burning some sticks represented energy production of magical proportions.

But, let’s hope that energy from the vacuum is not soon possible. If Homo sapiens had unlimited energy at this primitive point in their development, they would destroy the world.

[fluffy]

bobcousins said:

"There is one born every minute"

Energy from the vacuum is real, the Chasmere Effect has proven it over, and over again. What has not been definitely determined is the energy density of the vacuum. Some have estimated that there is enough energy from the vacuum in a glass of water to boil all the oceans of the world. Other calculations seem to show that it may only be a nominal amount. But, if energy production from the vacuum does ever occur it would not violate any Laws of Thermodynamics, it would just be recognition of a new energy source.

Problem is this: To use an energy source, you need a sink.

I.e. A power station takes the energy from burning coal (?1200K) and 'dumps' it into seawater (~300K); we extract work from the difference.

With Vacuum energy, where is that difference? Where do you find lumps of this energy that are more concentrated than other lumps?

[bobcousins]

bobcousins said:

"There is one born every minute"

Energy from the vacuum is real, the Chasmere Effect has proven it over, and over again.

Great! It's Casimir, not cashmere, but otherwise I can't wait to invest in your new Cashmere Online company (ticker: CON). Where do I sign?

[EnergyUnlimited]

Energy from the vacuum is real, the Chasmere Effect has proven it over, and over again. What has not been definitely determined is the energy density of the vacuum. Some have estimated that there is enough energy from the vacuum in a glass of water to boil all the oceans of the world. Other calculations seem to show that it may only be a nominal amount. But, if energy production from the vacuum does ever occur it would not violate any Laws of Thermodynamics, it would just be recognition of a new energy source. To a Clovis era hunter/gather, petroleum would have appeared as an unimaginable energy source. To Homo erectus burning some sticks represented energy production of magical proportions.

1. Casimir effect (attraction force between two parallel plates kept at close distance) is real, nevertheless it cannot be used for "free energy machines" or for creating stable negative energy flux.
It is best to be compared with permanent magnets kept at distance.
You will not get any perpetual motion based on that.

2. If energy production from vacuum ever occurs, it will take a form of quantum vacuum phase transition and the very fabric of space-time will change and abrupt change of laws of physics will occur in addition to quite arbitrary amounts of energy , which would be released...
Shortly, it would destroy current workings of Universe.
Ultimate apocalypse.
Interestingly, laws of thermodynamics would survive even that...

3. Pointless to compare with ancients in that context.
We may not know much why our physics works like it does, but we understand quite well how it works.
Ancients didn't know either.

[shortonoil]

Great! It's Casimir, not cashmere, but otherwise I can't wait to invest in your new Cashmere Online company (ticker: CON). Where do I sign?

Sorry for the spelling, that’s just what the world needs more of, pedantry? But, the point is the human race can not even handle a barrel of oil without killing itself and perhaps the rest of the planet, how the hell is it going to handle free energy?

EnergyUnlimited said:

3. Pointless to compare with ancients in that context. We may not know much why our physics works like it does, but we understand quite well how it works. Ancients didn't know either.

We have no assurance that new physical laws will not some day be recognized. If history is any indication, that is quite unlikely not to happen. You seem to place a great deal of faith in a believe system that is .01 percent as old as our species.