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THE Iran & the Nuclear Factor Thread pt 2 (merged)

For discussions of events and conditions not necessarily related to Peak Oil.

Re: Israel and US gov disagree on Iranian nuclear negotiatio

Unread postby Sixstrings » Tue 03 Mar 2015, 22:59:42

Plantagenet wrote:So much for Obama pretending he didn't want to influence the Israeli elections. :roll:


So is that what it's about?

Netanyahu's criticism from HIS left wing liberals is just that it wasn't good for Israel to "anger Obama."

Wtf though, we don't have a Putin, why is O getting "angry" at our allies. At Israel.

Obama had a discernable cold attitude when he met with Poroshenko too, some months back, when he spoke at Congress (again, at Boehner's invitation -- but don't punish these allied leaders if they want to come and speak if invited).

Guy, this is isn't good, it looks petty. It's like a king's policy. It's like personal whims and political retribution, not policy based, it's not cool. I want Obama to be tough, sure, BUT AGAINST OUR ADVERSARIES not our allies!
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Re: Israel and US gov disagree on Iranian nuclear negotiatio

Unread postby yellowcanoe » Tue 03 Mar 2015, 23:31:02

The West seems to be haunted by the vision of Neville Chamberlain's Munich Agreement, which Hitler had no intention of honouring. However, the idea that we can never negotiate with countries like Iran is as bankrupt as Chamberlain's attempt to get peace at any cost. What is the alternative to not negotiating with Iran? Sanctions will never work as they are seen as an attempt to force the country into a particular course of action. Think about it -- if other countries imposed sanctions on your own country how would you react? If sanctions won't work all that leaves is war. From what we've seen, military intervention in the Middle East seems to create more problems than it solves. Military intervention may solve an immediate problem, but it doesn't provide a long term solution.

The only way to find long term solutions to the problems of the Middle East is through negotiations. It certainly won't be easy because the various parties are far apart in their positions but it is a far superior solution than war.
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Re: Israel and US gov disagree on Iranian nuclear negotiatio

Unread postby Shaved Monkey » Wed 04 Mar 2015, 01:44:12

When the oil runs out, the interest in the ME will wain.
Then it will be left to the religious nut jobs to fight over the rocks and myths
The future is China and the dont give a stuff about Christo/Zionism or Islam
Ready to turn Zombies into WWOOFers
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Re: Israel and US gov disagree on Iranian nuclear negotiatio

Unread postby dinopello » Wed 04 Mar 2015, 07:44:35

There are non-stop advertisements running in the Washington DC market with scary images of car bombs going off that urge congress to vote against the Iran agreement (which hasn't even been proposed yet as far as I know). One recurring ad is from "The Emergency Committee for Israel", another that just came on (the one with the car bomb) was something like The American Security Initiative. Who are these groups ?
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Re: Israel and US gov disagree on Iranian nuclear negotiatio

Unread postby Timo » Wed 04 Mar 2015, 09:30:47

I won't claim that Iran is an honorable nation, but they sure do have a much better human rights record than Saudi Arabia. Given the choice of allies between those two nations, i'd take Iran. Their people are actually pro-west. The hard-line government are still pissed and rightly so, that the US and England screwed them over BIG TIME back in the 50s.Saudi Arabia produced the terrorists who hit the US on 9-11. Iran did not. Saudi Arabia insists on the religious mentality that produced ISIS. Iran does not, and has publicly condemned ISIS for their religious fabrication and tactics. Saudi Arabia has not. Iran supports the rights of the Palestinians to exist as a free nation, and they condemn Israel's inhumane treatment of the Palestinians. Saudi Arabia doesn't give a damn because they publicly flog people for speaking their minds. No one is perfect in this world, but who the US chooses for allies in that part of the world is batshit crazy. Netanyahu is Israel's own worst enemy for his insistance in sabotaging any and all negotiations with Iran. Bibi and the Big Dick Cheney sleep together every single night, dreaming about how to start another world war, and bring about the end of times for us all. That's their goal. Striving for peace is a waste of time.
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Re: Israel and US gov disagree on Iranian nuclear negotiatio

Unread postby Strummer » Wed 04 Mar 2015, 10:54:17

Timo wrote:No one is perfect in this world, but who the US chooses for allies in that part of the world is batshit crazy.


It's not crazy when you consider that the primary motivation is the control of oil. Not today, but in 10 or 20 years' time. It does not matter if Iran (or Russia, or Venezuela) are democratic or not. They could be the most democratic countries on Earth, but if they remained independent, the US would still go after them. Until we (the West) can control the oil exports in the future when those exports become a much more precious commodity than they are today.
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Re: Israel and US gov disagree on Iranian nuclear negotiatio

Unread postby Timo » Wed 04 Mar 2015, 11:05:40

Iran has oil. Lots of oil. If we could just get past their animosity toward Israel, they very well could be our closest ally in the ME. Israel, however, is the problem. Well, not Israel, per se, but Netanyahu, certainly. I'm not completely clear what the reasons are for Iran's hatred of Israel, but Bibi is most definitely NOT helping Israel's cause by doing everything in his power to lobby for war with Iran. Israel is not America's 51st state, yet they get more money from the US than any state in the nation. Going the way of Bibi with regards to Iran is not in the US best interests. Bibi lied about Iraq. He was as big a warmonger as Big Dick Cheney. That fact alone disqualifies him from being trusted in his comments about Iran. He's singing the exact same tune about Iran as he did about Iraq. Second verse, same as the first. The only problem is that that song ended when his lies were uncovered.
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Re: Israel and US gov disagree on Iranian nuclear negotiatio

Unread postby Pops » Wed 04 Mar 2015, 11:13:30

This is bigger than mere oil to evangelicals.
dinopello wrote:Who are these groups ?

Not sure who those are in particular but the basis is here.
http://www.informationclearinghouse.inf ... e15422.htm

Or as Pat Robertson said:
Ladies and gentlemen, make no mistake -- the entire world is being convulsed by a religious struggle. The fight is not about money or territory; it is not about poverty versus wealth; it is not about ancient customs versus modernity. No. The struggle is whether Hubal, the Moon God of Mecca, known as Allah, is supreme, or whether the Judeo-Christian Jehovah God of the Bible is Supreme.

http://www.patrobertson.com/Speeches/IsraelLauder.asp
The legitimate object of government, is to do for a community of people, whatever they need to have done, but can not do, at all, or can not, so well do, for themselves -- in their separate, and individual capacities.
-- Abraham Lincoln, Fragment on Government (July 1, 1854)
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Re: Israel and US gov disagree on Iranian nuclear negotiatio

Unread postby Timo » Wed 04 Mar 2015, 12:17:29

I suppose it's pointless pointing out that Allah and Yahweh are the same god! Christians, Jews, and Muslims all believe in and worship the same god. Pat Roberson doesn't know his theology very well.
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Re: Israel and US gov disagree on Iranian nuclear negotiatio

Unread postby Tanada » Wed 04 Mar 2015, 13:52:08

Timo wrote:I suppose it's pointless pointing out that Allah and Yahweh are the same god! Christians, Jews, and Muslims all believe in and worship the same god. Pat Roberson doesn't know his theology very well.


Well someone doesn't know his theology very well, but its not Pat Robertson. Didn't you ever take a comparative religion course?
I should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, design a building, write, balance accounts, build a wall, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, pitch manure, program a computer, cook, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
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Re: Israel and US gov disagree on Iranian nuclear negotiatio

Unread postby dinopello » Wed 04 Mar 2015, 13:57:24

Timo wrote:I suppose it's pointless pointing out that Allah and Yahweh are the same god! Christians, Jews, and Muslims all believe in and worship the same god. Pat Roberson doesn't know his theology very well.


Pat says it's the same dude right here (at least for Christians and Jews)
http://www.patrobertson.com/Speeches/IsraelLauder.asp


Ladies and Gentleman, evangelical Christians support Israel because we believe that the words of Moses and the ancient prophets of Israel were inspired by God.

You must realize that the God who spoke to Moses on Mount Sinai is our God.

-Pat Roberston


Later, in the same speech, he makes it clear that he thinks Allah is a totally different guy

If God's chosen people turn over to Allah control of their most sacred sites-if they surrender to Muslim vandals the tombs of Rachel, of Joseph, of the Patriarchs, of the ancient prophets-if they believe their claim to the Holy Land comes only from Lord Balfour of England and the ever fickle United Nations rather than the promises of Almighty God-then in that event, Islam will have won the battle. Throughout the Muslim world the message will go forth-"Allah is greater than Jehovah. The promises of Jehovah to the Jews are meaningless.


Religion is so strange. Christians are I think an offshoot of Jewish since they view Jesus as charting an improved direction as the son of God. But then Mormons are an offshoot of Christians as Joseph Smith was told some improvements by God - So do Christians believe that the Mormon God is the same as theirs ? I think Mormons believe that their god is the same as Christians. I had heard it was similar with Muslims - they believe that their god is the same as the Jewish and Christian God but Jews and Christians do not believe the Muslim god is the same as theirs.
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Re: Israel and US gov disagree on Iranian nuclear negotiatio

Unread postby Pops » Wed 04 Mar 2015, 14:33:32

Soccer fans all believe in soccer but they kill each other anyway.
The legitimate object of government, is to do for a community of people, whatever they need to have done, but can not do, at all, or can not, so well do, for themselves -- in their separate, and individual capacities.
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Re: Israel and US gov disagree on Iranian nuclear negotiatio

Unread postby Timo » Wed 04 Mar 2015, 14:46:32

Tanada wrote:
Timo wrote:I suppose it's pointless pointing out that Allah and Yahweh are the same god! Christians, Jews, and Muslims all believe in and worship the same god. Pat Roberson doesn't know his theology very well.


Well someone doesn't know his theology very well, but its not Pat Robertson. Didn't you ever take a comparative religion course?

Comparative religion? No. Old Testament? Yes, at a public university, no less. Obviously, scriptures vary according to the faith, but there are several commonalities between all three faiths here. Prophets vary, and the words of those prophets vary, but the underlying god is the same across all three. God chose Jesus, or God chose Muhammad, or God hasn't decided yet.

Personally, i don't believe in any of those religions, or any other, for that matter. My father was a minister, but he too came to his senses and dropped his own beliefs. Religions are creations designed to control the masses. Psat Roberston got quite wealthy controlling his viewers, and conning them out of $700 in exchange for eternal salvation.
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Re: Israel and US gov disagree on Iranian nuclear negotiatio

Unread postby dinopello » Wed 04 Mar 2015, 15:12:41

Pops wrote:Soccer fans all believe in soccer but they kill each other anyway.


It was always thus.

People say over consumption/reproduction is "human nature", but to me that is just the nature of life. Killing because someone doesn't think imaginary things exactly the way you do is really unique to humans.
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Re: Israel and US gov disagree on Iranian nuclear negotiatio

Unread postby Strummer » Wed 04 Mar 2015, 15:27:48

Tanada wrote:
Timo wrote:I suppose it's pointless pointing out that Allah and Yahweh are the same god! Christians, Jews, and Muslims all believe in and worship the same god. Pat Roberson doesn't know his theology very well.


Well someone doesn't know his theology very well, but its not Pat Robertson. Didn't you ever take a comparative religion course?


Can you elaborate? I thought that Judaism, Christianity and Islam are all so-called Abrahamic religions, worshipping the same God. From wikipedia:

The unifying characteristic of Abrahamic religions is that all accept the tradition that God revealed himself to the patriarch Abraham.[22] All are monotheistic, and conceive God to be a transcendent creator and the source of moral law.[23] Their religious texts feature many of the same figures, histories, and places, although they often present them with different roles, perspectives, and meanings.[24] Believers who agree on these similarities and the common Abrahamic origin tend to also be more positive towards other Abrahamic groups.
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Re: Israel and US gov disagree on Iranian nuclear negotiatio

Unread postby Timo » Wed 04 Mar 2015, 15:31:47

Strummer, Thank you!
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Re: Israel and US gov disagree on Iranian nuclear negotiatio

Unread postby SeaGypsy » Wed 04 Mar 2015, 16:19:26

Yes Planty, Obama is insane. Most of his government likewise, with Pelosi the wicked witch of the west.

Yes Iran is fighting IS & this has been going on since about July last year according to Iranian friend of mine, at least 40,000 Iranian forces are on the ground in Iraq. Good old media kaibosh means most ppl have no idea about this.

Why does the USA tolerate such stupid government?
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Re: Israel and US gov disagree on Iranian nuclear negotiatio

Unread postby Pops » Wed 04 Mar 2015, 16:44:01

Timo wrote:I suppose it's pointless pointing out that Allah and Yahweh are the same god! Christians, Jews, and Muslims all believe in and worship the same god. Pat Roberson doesn't know his theology very well.

Actually it is pointless posting links, LOL.

It isn't so much that they worship different gods (I don't know if they do or not) it is that some in the US (a lot actually) believe that Israel is the key to the Rapture.

Here from the abstract of the link I posted above,
Dispensationalist Christian Zionists, often described the 'Armageddon lobby', make up the largest voting bloc in the Republican Party and have become a mainstay in US politics. More recently, the Christian Zionist lobby has had a profoundly damaging impact on the Israeli-Palestinian 'peace process' as well as creating a conspiracy of silence regarding Israeli offensives in the occupied Palestinian territories.


The Armageddon Lobby's belief...
... is 'based on dispensationalist theology', which states that we are living in the last dispensation of the Book of Revelation, which essentially means that we are in the end-times. Within this theology, the return of the Messiah is contingent upon a set of events transpiring, and among these, a Jewish State of Israel must be in existence.
The legitimate object of government, is to do for a community of people, whatever they need to have done, but can not do, at all, or can not, so well do, for themselves -- in their separate, and individual capacities.
-- Abraham Lincoln, Fragment on Government (July 1, 1854)
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Re: Israel and US gov disagree on Iranian nuclear negotiatio

Unread postby dinopello » Wed 04 Mar 2015, 16:50:41

Pops- couldn't access that link but figured it was something like that. Turns out one of the groups running all the scary Iran commercials is run by Bill Kristol and Gary Baur, which is the kind of alliance you are talking about it seems.
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Re: Israel and US gov disagree on Iranian nuclear negotiatio

Unread postby Timo » Wed 04 Mar 2015, 17:45:23

I' posted this link here before, but it just never gets old.

http://www.raptureready.com/rap2.html

Are you ready for the Rapture?
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