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THE Immigration, Legal and Illegal, Thread (merged)

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Re: THE Immigration, Legal and Illegal, Thread (merged)

Unread postby Newfie » Thu 28 Mar 2019, 10:47:56

Ibon wrote:
Newfie wrote:Dodging the issue. If the right answer is 200-250 million then it seems absurd have immigration when we are at 330 million.

It’s pretty simple.

Forget all the drama and bigotry and accusations. The population needs to shrink.

Immigration is like a 330 pound guy whining about being fat while knocking back a Super Sized soda.


You sound like you suggesting we should just put a cork on immigration completely until we reach a desired level of population.

I would never advocate that. Why should that policy be promoted ahead of say Dohboi's suggestion of eating less meat.

Or why not outlaw exporting corn and wheat to China that is grown in arid areas that deplete our non renewable aquifers.

The 330 pound gorilla is multifaceted when it comes to human overshoot and you seem to be trying to create a 330 pound scapegoat gorilla here!


Ibon,

Missed this post not ignoring.

Yes I am advocating stopping all immigration (with some rare exceptions)until we get to that set point. It’s the one thing we have direct control of and responsibility for. It is legislatively do able.

Dohboi s idea of eating less meat does not address the problem. The problem being overpopulation which effects us negatively in manny ways. Dohboi’s solution is to make more room for more humans which does not work to reduce overshoot, simply mitigate.

I don’t follow your suggestion about exports, got lost in it somewhere. But it requires the USA to meddle in the affairs of other countries some of whom have nuclear weapons. China has already done far more than anyone else through their one child policy. They are facing a soon to be decreasing population and so far have not opened themselves to mass immigration.

If you mean we should start looking at sustainability, stop sacrificing our soils health for short term cash, then I agree. I think we need to look at large scale agrigarian reform among other issues. Stopping all exports overnight would amount to genocide. But ALL nations need to work towards sustainability. Obviously that includes international trade. But Saudi Arabia, for example, is in a real sustainability pickle, they are 100% supported by a declining finite resource.

I completely agree this is a multifaceted 300 pound gorilla. I also think that for the USA to effect change elsewhere in the world we first need to clean up our act here. Responsibility starts at home and we have a LOT of work to do in our own backyard.
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Re: THE Immigration, Legal and Illegal, Thread (merged)

Unread postby Revi » Thu 28 Mar 2019, 13:46:10

I think the problem is that we can't live within our means, and people come here to get some of the money we seem to want to spend. Empires are attractors, and people come to the core to try to make a living. All Roads lead to Rome. We are going to keep attracting people until they realize that it's no better here than where they come from. That's going to take a while....
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Re: THE Immigration, Legal and Illegal, Thread (merged)

Unread postby Newfie » Thu 28 Mar 2019, 14:11:36

Agreed. One reason I’m for pretty strict immigration rules. I feel sympathy and empathy and in their shoes I would do the same thing.

But in the shoes I’m in we whole strictly limitnommigration. No point turning us into a Guatemala.

Not that the damn cities are any better, just offer the consumption drug and hopium baloney.

Truly depressing.
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Re: THE Immigration, Legal and Illegal, Thread (merged)

Unread postby Revi » Fri 29 Mar 2019, 09:48:28

Newfie wrote:Agreed. One reason I’m for pretty strict immigration rules. I feel sympathy and empathy and in their shoes I would do the same thing.

But in the shoes I’m in we whole strictly limitnommigration. No point turning us into a Guatemala.

Not that the damn cities are any better, just offer the consumption drug and hopium baloney.

Truly depressing.


How long do you think we can hold people out for? They are going to get in by many other means even if we put in a wall. I know I could find a sailboat or sea kayak and land someplace if I had to. Tell me there aren't others thinking the same thing!
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Re: THE Immigration, Legal and Illegal, Thread (merged)

Unread postby onlooker » Fri 29 Mar 2019, 11:01:54

"We are going to keep attracting people until they realize that it's no better here than where they come from. That's going to take a while...."
Yep, because their lives back in their countries seems to be one of utter destitution and fear living in very high crime areas. At least here, they feel that will have the basics and some security. Plus, some may even imagine a life potentially of some afflluence and comfort
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Re: THE Immigration, Legal and Illegal, Thread (merged)

Unread postby Plantagenet » Fri 29 Mar 2019, 11:17:03

Trump was right. There is a humanitarian disaster going on at the borders. Tens of thousands of women and children are streaming to the US border because they can get food stamps, free medical care, housing assistance, etc. etc. as soon as they cross the border and say the magic words "I am seeking asylum".

Clearly we need to reform our immigration system so we aren't attracting tens of thousands of vulnerable women and children to our borders.

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Re: THE Immigration, Legal and Illegal, Thread (merged)

Unread postby Revi » Fri 29 Mar 2019, 13:10:43

Plantagenet wrote:Trump was right.
Clearly we need to reform our immigration system so we aren't attracting tens of thousands of vulnerable women and children to our borders.
Cheers!

Sure, what are we going to do? There need to be refugee centers set up some place. If we continue to have an economy that needs people and they continue to be forced off their land it will never end. It's not as simple as "let's build a wall".
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Re: THE Immigration, Legal and Illegal, Thread (merged)

Unread postby Newfie » Fri 29 Mar 2019, 13:29:36

The only reason the economy needs more people is to infuse growth. To stop AGW you need to stop growth, including human population.

I know we are taping about things being terribly unfair and frankly brutal.

But this is a real life game of Lifeboat.

Every public gathering place I see has some maximum occupancy: theater, restaurant, ball park, whatever. The USA (or any other country) is a public gathering place for the citizens. What is our “Maximum Occupancy”?
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Re: THE Immigration, Legal and Illegal, Thread (merged)

Unread postby Plantagenet » Fri 29 Mar 2019, 15:46:53

Revi wrote:Sure, what are we going to do?


First of all, we need to start sending unaccompanied minors back immediately. The US is essentially kidnapping these children from their families. They all have family and relatives back at home, and they should be sent back to their home countries and their families as soon as possible.

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Re: THE Immigration, Legal and Illegal, Thread (merged)

Unread postby Revi » Thu 04 Apr 2019, 10:15:54

Okay, so we start sending those kids back to the towns they have relatives in. Who rides the bus to the town? I used to live there, and it's a long way on bad roads back to every tiny town people are coming from. Some are on impassable roads in the rainy season, which starts in June. It's going to be a very difficult task.

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Re: THE Immigration, Legal and Illegal, Thread (merged)

Unread postby Cog » Thu 04 Apr 2019, 11:20:36

Their difficulties are not my problem. Don't make it my problem and we won't have to resort to more drastic measures to keep them out.
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Re: THE Immigration, Legal and Illegal, Thread (merged)

Unread postby Ibon » Thu 04 Apr 2019, 12:48:11

Newfie wrote:

But this is a real life game of Lifeboat.

?


I am not sure this is true. Assuming it is then we have to be consistent in taking the hard line. In other words Democrats would join hands with Republicans in more draconian immigration policies at the same time Republicans would join Democrats in defending abortion and actually making it easier for women to terminate pregnancies and in having access to contraceptives.

Until consistency is achieved we are only selecting where to be brutal which in other words means we are still being political or racist or nationalistic.

If we want to start with the low hanging fruit justified by an ecological mandate surely the unborn and immigrants would be in a similar category I would think.
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Re: THE Immigration, Legal and Illegal, Thread (merged)

Unread postby Newfie » Thu 04 Apr 2019, 14:37:11

Ibon,
I’m OK with that. I’m also OK with providing the bordering countries with some additional aid to make things better where they are.

Cog,
Their difficulties are not your/our problem in a legal sense. In a real world sense they are very much of a problem or else we would not have had the government shutdown and all the ensuing turmoil. Trump and his staff also seem to think it’s a problem, Hensel the National Emergency.

Now what is the best and most cost effective way to deal with the issue? Trump had a problem with Stormy Danielle. Presumably it was sex between consenting adults. Maybe considerations were involved? Who knows. But legally there were no ties, no problem. When it became an “optics” problem then Trump knew how to fix it. He made a deal.

He needs to show some similar outside the box creative thinking on the immigration issue. Walls in some areas probably make sense, at least in the short term. In the long term something else needs to be done.
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Re: THE Immigration, Legal and Illegal, Thread (merged)

Unread postby Cog » Thu 04 Apr 2019, 16:01:29

A simple law change that would require congressional action. If you enter the country illegally you can not claim asylum now or ever. You are immediately deported. No judicial review, no waits, no legal process to slow things down. If you try to enter again, you are sentenced to a hard labor camp for five years.

You can only claim asylum at an official point of entry and you must stay south of the border until it's approved, if ever.
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Re: THE Immigration, Legal and Illegal, Thread (merged)

Unread postby Newfie » Thu 04 Apr 2019, 16:58:28

Are you advocating for that change or describing existing law?
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Re: THE Immigration, Legal and Illegal, Thread (merged)

Unread postby Newfie » Fri 05 Apr 2019, 10:34:55

I very seldom read Tucker Carlson, too partisan, and much of this commentary of his is just that, partisan drivel. Yet there is a bit to it that, to me, makes good sense. In fact it’s something I’ve been saying for a while. So I found it interesting that it actually came up. It would have been far better for it to be framed in a less polarized manner, yet there it is.

First and most obvious, how many immigrants should we admit every year? What's the ideal number? We currently take a little over a million every year, legally. Should we double that to over two million? How about 10 million immigrants a year? How about 20 million? Is there any number that's too high? And if so, why?

While we are at it, what's the ideal population of the United States? Immigration affects population size more than any other factor. We're at about 325 million people in the United States today, and that's a lot. Our highways are crumbling, many of our cities are painfully overcrowded. How big should we get? 400 million? 600 million? A billion people?


https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/tucker- ... mmigration
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Re: THE Immigration, Legal and Illegal, Thread (merged)

Unread postby Cog » Fri 05 Apr 2019, 11:36:06

Newfie wrote:Are you advocating for that change or describing existing law?


The way its being treated right now by law is that if you set foot on US soil you are processed and released onto US soil until your asylum hearing. Those people become the illegals that never show up at their asylum hearings. So there is little incentive to actually show up at a point of entry and do it the right way.

Another factor in play. By US and international law, you must make an asylum claim in the first country you cross into. The Guatemalans and Hondurans should be claiming asylum in Mexico not transiting Mexico and claiming it in the USA.
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Re: THE Immigration, Legal and Illegal, Thread (merged)

Unread postby Newfie » Sat 06 Apr 2019, 07:20:57

Thanks for the reply.
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Re: THE Immigration, Legal and Illegal, Thread (merged)

Unread postby Revi » Mon 08 Apr 2019, 13:59:28

Cog wrote:Their difficulties are not my problem. Don't make it my problem and we won't have to resort to more drastic measures to keep them out.

What are you suggesting? Are you going to deport all your landscapers? Or the pool cleaners and dishwashers at your club?
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Re: THE Immigration, Legal and Illegal, Thread (merged)

Unread postby Cog » Mon 08 Apr 2019, 14:28:51

I mow my own lawn. I do my own dishes since most of my meals are home cooked and I don't have a pool. If wages have to go up to pay Americans to do those jobs I'm fine with that. You import masses of people who cant assimilate, it's you who will be assimilated. I don't give a damn how hard they work. They can work hard in their own country.
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