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THE Immigration, Legal and Illegal, Thread (merged)

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Re: THE Immigration, Legal and Illegal, Thread (merged)

Unread postby Ibon » Sat 10 Nov 2018, 10:40:13

onlooker wrote: So, they actually look for adventure and spontaneous occurring experiences .


That's why some end up in Panama at the top of a mountain while others want to dig a hole and build walls
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Re: THE Immigration, Legal and Illegal, Thread (merged)

Unread postby onlooker » Sat 10 Nov 2018, 10:46:32

Ibon wrote:
onlooker wrote: So, they actually look for adventure and spontaneous occurring experiences .


That's why some end up in Panama at the top of a mountain while others want to dig a hole and build walls

:lol: :lol:
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Re: THE Immigration, Legal and Illegal, Thread (merged)

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Sat 10 Nov 2018, 11:39:19

I'll have you know, I consider myself to be a Classical Liberal. That is a distinct and well-defined philosophy, but one that few recognize in this day and age. Most people recognize "libertarian", and that comes closest of the terms in common usage, so I use that, with a small "l" because I am not a card-carrying member of the Libertarian Party. But I find the real Libertarians to be evangelistic and preachy. For a classical Hebrew scholar's version of the differences:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/is-classical-liberalism-conservative-1507931462
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Re: THE Immigration, Legal and Illegal, Thread (merged)

Unread postby Newfie » Sat 10 Nov 2018, 12:52:10

Personally I’m a “Confused.”

I seem to have bits of every stripe.
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Re: THE Immigration, Legal and Illegal, Thread (merged)

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Sat 10 Nov 2018, 18:05:12

Newfie - Just had a conversation that reminded me of a bad habit of assuming everyone knows the same facts that I do. For instance do you know what country allows more foreign immigrants to enter its country LEGALLY every year then every other country on the planet? For instance 5 million in the 5 year period from 2007 thru 2012.
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Re: THE Immigration, Legal and Illegal, Thread (merged)

Unread postby Newfie » Sun 11 Nov 2018, 07:47:34

I could guess, but that would perchance spoil the fun. So fill me in please.
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Re: THE Immigration, Legal and Illegal, Thread (merged)

Unread postby onlooker » Sun 11 Nov 2018, 08:14:30

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Re: THE Immigration, Legal and Illegal, Thread (merged)

Unread postby Cog » Sun 11 Nov 2018, 08:46:29

And yet the left continues to push the narrative that the right is hostile to immigration. We aren't. We object to illegal and uncontrolled immigration as most countries around the world do.
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Re: THE Immigration, Legal and Illegal, Thread (merged)

Unread postby onlooker » Sun 11 Nov 2018, 09:58:37

Cog wrote:And yet the left continues to push the narrative that the right is hostile to immigration. We aren't. We object to illegal and uncontrolled immigration as most countries around the world do.

Yes, this is but one example of how each side paints the other in overly and unfairly negative terms
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Re: THE Immigration, Legal and Illegal, Thread (merged)

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Sun 11 Nov 2018, 15:09:48

Cog, I would briefly explain: The Europeans invented "Nationalism", and it was arguably the cause of both WW1 and WW2. It is NOT the same as Patriotism, as it includes a belief that your own system is superior and that other people elsewhere in the world would benefit from doing things the same way, in spite of differences in culture, religion, languages, mores, etc.

The Nazi's for example were literally the National Socialist Party, expressed in the German language. Nationalists but not Socialists, IMHO. They - and the other Axis powers - set out to force their system on others.

If you would self-describe as an American "Nationalist", you would believe that we could impose American style governments in place of whatever is present in Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Russia, and Afghanistan, for example - and that they would welcome this meddling with open arms.

I just don't believe that.
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Re: THE Immigration, Legal and Illegal, Thread (merged)

Unread postby Cog » Sun 11 Nov 2018, 18:51:26

I would agree with you KJ, under the stipulations you have placed on the word nationalism. I do happen to believe the American system of a Constitutional Republic is a superior system. For us. I do not wish to force others to adopt it by either intimidation or invasion. Nationalism, at least the way I use the word, is to put your nation's interests first before any others. I fully expect other nations in the world, regardless of how they are organized, to do exactly the same thing.

Nationalism doesn't have to imply isolationism. Trade and alliances can continue to the point it still benefits your own nation in some way or other. But we do not surrender sovereignty to others outside our own nation. Nor should we engage in trade deals that benefit other nations to the detriment of our own.
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Re: THE Immigration, Legal and Illegal, Thread (merged)

Unread postby Newfie » Sun 11 Nov 2018, 19:32:52

I think what underlies some of this is a sense of guilt. Guilt that we have had it too good and that we have unjustly meddled in other countries and caused some of the pain they are feeling.

I think it’s pretty clear that’s what you have going on in Germany. And it also explains the east/west difference of opinion in Germany. The East Germans didn’t have it so good for a long time, they got over their guilt.

Just another way of looking at it.
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Re: THE Immigration, Legal and Illegal, Thread (merged)

Unread postby careinke » Mon 12 Nov 2018, 00:57:38

Cog wrote:I would agree with you KJ, under the stipulations you have placed on the word nationalism. I do happen to believe the American system of a Constitutional Republic is a superior system. For us. I do not wish to force others to adopt it by either intimidation or invasion. Nationalism, at least the way I use the word, is to put your nation's interests first before any others. I fully expect other nations in the world, regardless of how they are organized, to do exactly the same thing.

Nationalism doesn't have to imply isolationism. Trade and alliances can continue to the point it still benefits your own nation in some way or other. But we do not surrender sovereignty to others outside our own nation. Nor should we engage in trade deals that benefit other nations to the detriment of our own.


+1

That's the perfectly the way I feel about nationalism. I believe Trump feels the same way.

It is also anti Globalism. My problem with Globalism is there is only one globe. So if you don't like the government, you are kinda stuck. I prefer hundreds of governments each trying to do the best for their own people.
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Re: THE Immigration, Legal and Illegal, Thread (merged)

Unread postby Ibon » Mon 12 Nov 2018, 08:47:53

I am going to take this positive sentiment of nationalism expressed in the last couple of posts and extend it a bit and see at which point this raises any objections. Immigration and trade as Cog and others suggested should be put through the lens of how this serves the nations best interests. Now let's go back 25 years before we off shored all of the manufacturing to China and other countries and let's imagine a moment that we had the hindsight we have today. It would have been possible to regulate more strictly the off shoring of manufacturing by deferring to nationalism instead of globalism, restricting off shoring when this resulted in massive unemployment and stripped small towns and communities of their core industries. Back then the argument was to allow unfettered capitalism, allow that all wise invisible hand to find the equilibrium between supply and demand by not applying any restrictions to globalism. Nationalism back then was never raised as an issue. If it was by Reagan or Clinton the argument was that those dirty industries are best left to offshore to developing countries and this will be replaced as we pursue high technology industries. As we all know this did not exactly turn out this way especially if we consider the current trade imbalances with China and the lost intellectual capital. One of the greatest lobbying pressures back then up until today are the multi national corporations who argued in favor of unrestricted globalization. The resulting hallowing out of the middle class and the increased disparity of wealth we find today be traced to putting globalism before nationalism. Same can be said for the financial sector where bank mergers happened outside national borders. As much as the US and the UK have benefited that NYC and London are the financial capitals of the world and as much as the USA has benefited that the US dollar is the de facto world currency there is definitely the argument that the control and power these banks have is imbalanced when looking at this through the lens of a nations best interests and sovereignty.

The defending of a nations best interests can be extended beyond immigration and the control of trade and finance and then be moved toward social issues like health care and a clean environment. Nationalism can be used as an argument to regulate say the insurance and medical industries to best serve the nations population by moving to a single payer health care system, to convert to sustainable energy to increase the long term resiliency of a nation.

You see where I am going with this?

If you take the concept of nationalism and sovereignty and serving a nations best interests to its fullest extent then you end up having to confront something that up until today conservatives for example have been unable to do. There is a strongly held belief that government must be weakened, stripped of its power, deregulated and weakened. That unbridled capitalism and maximizing an individual's personal freedom and liberty always take precedent over any attempts to regulate it. But what happens when this conflicts with a nation's best interests?

At the moment there seems to be two apposing forces that are not compatible. We want to strengthen nationalism at the same time as we want to weaken government, to deregulate it's ability to control the forces that represent potential threats to a nation's best interests.
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Re: THE Immigration, Legal and Illegal, Thread (merged)

Unread postby onlooker » Mon 12 Nov 2018, 10:07:33

I think the irony of unfettered Capitalism and being incompatible with Nationalism as defined in this thread goes even deeper. The basic tools of Capitalism such as money, lending, private property and the ideological position of Capitalism being individual gain, greed, competition all are incompatible with Nationalism. Why? Because they all stress the individual and self gain at the expense of collective unity and wellbeing . Capitalism was bound to seek to expand markets worldwide. In that sense Globalization was inevitable. This era has seen the ascendency of Corporations in tandem with the ascendency of Capitalism.

And so now Governments are totally corrupted and serve Big Money. So, my assertion is in fact that Capitalism is incompatible with Nationalism. It corrupts any attempt to reign it in via the power structure ie. Govt. In fact Big Money is the true Power Structure of this planet. The Corporations, the Banks , the wealthy have no national allegiance. They have allegiance to Money and profit. Surely, you all see how the US govt. invariably sides with Big Business on practically all issues. President Eisenhower said beware the Military/Industrial complex
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Re: THE Immigration, Legal and Illegal, Thread (merged)

Unread postby onlooker » Mon 12 Nov 2018, 10:16:07

By the way given that this thread is specifically about Immigration we have here also an example of Govt. policy to favor corporations. These illegals are working here receiving hardly any benefits even while required to pay taxes. And Cog, technically they are not allowed to receive hardly any help from govt.

So the coporations are happy to have these people at so cheap a cost doing work, that Americans either do not wish to do or would do but only with better pay and/or benefits that their illegal counterparts.
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Re: THE Immigration, Legal and Illegal, Thread (merged)

Unread postby Cog » Mon 12 Nov 2018, 11:10:27

Government should do what it does best. To regulate commerce between the USA and other countries in a way beneficial way to the USA as a whole. But there is no implication that government needs to be overbearing in its regulation of corporations that serve our own citizenry. The adoption of socialism doesn't get us anywhere good. Government regulation costs everyone in America money. Lost productivity to comply with it all costs an enormous amount of money.

Yes, government at the federal level can shrink and still maintain its main functions which are to guarantee individual and corporate rights before the law. Immigration and international commerce are also those things delegated to the federal government by the Constitution. Health care and the type of method we pay for it, is not an enumerated federal function. Although we have went part way there with Medicare and Medicaid. There is no right to health care. It maybe a desirable thing to have but no right exists for it.
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Re: THE Immigration, Legal and Illegal, Thread (merged)

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Mon 12 Nov 2018, 13:05:43

That's not the way it is here in Silly Valley, onlooker. YES, the (possibly) undocumented Latinos landscaping my yard and buiding a deck are getting paid in cash, but they are also moonlighting weekends only from what I presume are real jobs, since all of them have pickup trucks. In my defense, I tried to get real licensed/bonded contractors, but my yard is too small to interest them.

But the H1B visa holders working here are getting all the benefits paid to other corporate employees, and salaries commensurate with their relatively young ages and lack of experience. There is NOBODY going to make it here in this valley without something, with houses right around $1M in a good neighborhood close to mass transit, and rents at $3500-$5000/month. Either you live at your parent's home, or you find at least 5 roomates to share a house, regardless of citizenship status.
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