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THE Hydrogen Thread pt 3 (merged)

Discussions of conventional and alternative energy production technologies.

Re: 'Inexhaustible' Source of Hydrogen From Salt Water

Unread postby Pops » Tue 20 Sep 2011, 19:08:32

I thought this was pretty interesting, of course it takes more than a grain of salt to 'power' the reaction, it takes organic matter.

Sure, there is lots of 'waste' out there but it's already food for something. If it wasn't we'd be up to our eyeballs in 'waste'.
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Re: 'Inexhaustible' Source of Hydrogen From Salt Water

Unread postby Keith_McClary » Wed 21 Sep 2011, 01:50:40

Is it better than a potato battery:
Image
or lots of them connected in series:
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Hydrogen Storage Could Be Key to Germany's Energy Plans

Unread postby Graeme » Mon 02 Apr 2012, 18:43:34

Hydrogen Storage Could Be Key to Germany's Energy Plans

If Germany is to meet its ambitious goals of getting a third of its electricity from renewable energy by 2020 and 80 percent by 2050, it must find a way to store huge quantities of electricity in order to make up for the intermittency of renewable energy.

Siemens says it has just the technology: electrolyzer plants, each the size of a large warehouse, that split water to make hydrogen gas. The hydrogen could be used when the wind isn't blowing to generate electricity in gas-fired power plants, or it could be used to fuel cars.

Producing hydrogen is an inefficient way to store energy—about two-thirds of the power is lost in the processes of making the hydrogen and using the hydrogen to generate electricity. But Siemens says it's the only storage option that can achieve the scale that's going to be needed in Germany.

Unlike conventional industrial electrolyzers, which need a fairly steady supply of power to efficiently split water, Siemens's new design is flexible enough to run on intermittent power from wind turbines. It's based on proton-exchange membrane technology similar to that used in fuel cells for cars, which can operate at widely different power levels. The electrolyzers can also temporarily operate at two to three times their rated power levels, which could be useful for accommodating surges in power on windy days.


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Re: Hydrogen Storage Could Be Key to Germany's Energy Plans

Unread postby prajeshbhat » Tue 03 Apr 2012, 06:04:58

Much better to grow up and learn to live with less luxury. Building warehouse sized electrolyzers is not worth the effort. Especially when it leads to the loss of 66% of the power.
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Re: Hydrogen Storage Could Be Key to Germany's Energy Plans

Unread postby SeaGypsy » Tue 03 Apr 2012, 06:45:52

Under the same philosophy we would never have had motorized transport, given roughly the same percentage is lost as heat in combustion engines. Same goes for most electric plants. I find this article refreshing in it's relative honesty. There are problems about reliance on rare earths and with turning hydrogen efficiently back into electricity. However the forests in Bavaria are awfully pretty, 30 years ago they were doomed from acid rain. A few years later their economy was going to drag down under the weight of absorbing the east. Germany is quite dynamic.
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Re: Hydrogen Storage Could Be Key to Germany's Energy Plans

Unread postby radon » Tue 03 Apr 2012, 07:28:38

prajeshbhat wrote:Especially when it leads to the loss of 66% of the power.


Energy is always lost in the cycles of conversion, this is why things like e-cat do not win much adoration here.

The thermodynamic limits assume that the engine is operating under ideal conditions: a frictionless world, ideal gases, perfect insulators, and operation for infinite time. Real world applications introduce complexities that reduce efficiency. For example, a real engine runs best at a specific load, termed its power band. The engine in a car cruising on a highway is usually operating significantly below its ideal load, because it is designed for the higher loads required for rapid acceleration. In addition, factors such as wind resistance reduce overall system efficiency. Engine fuel economy is usually measured in the units of miles per gallon (or fuel consumption in liters per 100 kilometers) for automobiles. The volume of hydrocarbon assumes a standard energy content.

Most steel engines have a thermodynamic limit of 37%. Even when aided with turbochargers and stock efficiency aids, most engines retain an average efficiency of about 18%-20%.[8] Rocket engine efficiencies are better still, up to 70%, because they operate at very high temperatures and pressures and can have very high expansion ratios.[9]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internal_combustion_engine#Energy_efficiency


Storing energy in the form of hydrogen (or methane) makes a lot of sense as it helps to smooth out the fluctuations in the renewables' energy production. They appear to be on the right track.
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Re: Hydrogen Storage Could Be Key to Germany's Energy Plans

Unread postby cephalotus » Tue 03 Apr 2012, 11:32:44

prajeshbhat wrote:Much better to grow up and learn to live with less luxury.


Sure?

I don't want to live without electricity. Better to have expensive electricity than no electricity at all.

Building warehouse sized electrolyzers is not worth the effort.


why not? Sounds more sensible than building huge nuclear reactors that you can not control which generate waste you have no plan for...

Especially when it leads to the loss of 66% of the power.


You lose 66% from electricity to hydrogen AND back to electricity and most of it is lost in the 2nd part when you use hydrogen in gas fired power plants to generate electricity again. The loss from the electrolyses should be around 20-25%, maybe a bit more for compression.
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Re: Hydrogen Storage Could Be Key to Germany's Energy Plans

Unread postby prajeshbhat » Wed 04 Apr 2012, 02:02:20

SeaGypsy wrote:Under the same philosophy we would never have had motorized transport, given roughly the same percentage is lost as heat in combustion engines.Same goes for most electric plants.


The thermodynamic losses in motor vehicles and thermal power plants were tolerable, given that the energy was derived by simple burning dirt cheap fossil fuels. But in this article, they are talking about storing energy derived from electricity which is derived from renewable energy sources. This electricity is already 3 times more expensive than conventional electricity. Losses during storage will make it even more expensive.

cephalotus wrote:I don't want to live without electricity. Better to have expensive electricity than no electricity at all.


Not a problem as long as you are willing to pay more per unit of electricity. If you can afford it, go for it.
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Re: Hydrogen Storage Could Be Key to Germany's Energy Plans

Unread postby radon » Wed 04 Apr 2012, 02:17:41

prajeshbhat wrote: This electricity is already 3 times more expensive than conventional electricity. Losses during storage will make it even more expensive.


If the energy is not stored, then it is simply lost: the energy losses will be 100% instead of "just" 66%.
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Re: Hydrogen Storage Could Be Key to Germany's Energy Plans

Unread postby SeaGypsy » Wed 04 Apr 2012, 07:22:12

A carbon tax just went onto my power bill, from 18.5cpkwh to 22. I am so p'd off (sarc). I never graduated high school, but make about 150khw per hour of work. Incidentally I burn less than 1 kwh per day at home, own no motorised trans, scooter the 2 minutes to the train which has regen braking and carries 1200+ people in peak hours every 20 minutes. I am quite happy to pay triple. Hell factor it if you like, $2.20 kwh, allowing treble the price and treble that for reinvestment, still happy. Moreso if I know my grandchildren can do so,
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Re: Hydrogen Storage Could Be Key to Germany's Energy Plans

Unread postby cephalotus » Wed 04 Apr 2012, 07:31:21

prajeshbhat wrote:
The thermodynamic losses in motor vehicles and thermal power plants were tolerable, given that the energy was derived by simple burning dirt cheap fossil fuels. But in this article, they are talking about storing energy derived from electricity which is derived from renewable energy sources. This electricity is already 3 times more expensive than conventional electricity. Losses during storage will make it even more expensive.


We are not talking about average prices, but about "the last 10% in long term storage" (in a world of 100% reneable energies, In Germany mostly wind + PV). Wind energy in Germany (onshore) costs between 5-8 €ct/kWh, but on some days wind power plants are already shut down here. So we are talking about thrwoing away that electricity for nothing.

If the hydrogen will cost 15 €ct/kWh and the electricity from burning hydrogen will cost 50 €ct/kwh than this will be perfectly ok for "the last 10%".

Make mix of 70% wind energy at 8 €ct/kWh, 20% PV at 10 €ct/kWh, 10% water+biomass at 15 €ct/kWh in coming years and 30% at +5ct/kWh for short term storage together with 10% of hydrogen (or methane) long term storage (10% are losses in the short term storga systems) you end with an average price of ca. 15 €ct/kWh.
This is more expensive than today (average prices are around 6 €ct/kWh), but at only 3%/a inflation 6 ct today will be 15ct in 30 years anyway.

Not a problem as long as you are willing to pay more per unit of electricity. If you can afford it, go for it.


I now pay 25 €ct/kWh for "100% green electricity" and if I have to pay 50 €ct/kwh I will do so. Doesn't really matter to me, I have very efficient equippment. Even driving an electric car would be ok at such prices compared to our prices for gas.

I see this as a much more realstic (and desirebale) scenario compared to scenarios with no electricity and no gas at all or comapred to energy scenarios that involve destroying our ecosystems.

ymmv
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Re: Hydrogen Storage Could Be Key to Germany's Energy Plans

Unread postby dsula » Wed 04 Apr 2012, 13:19:19

cephalotus wrote:
prajeshbhat wrote:
The thermodynamic losses in motor vehicles and thermal power plants were tolerable, given that the energy was derived by simple burning dirt cheap fossil fuels. But in this article, they are talking about storing energy derived from electricity which is derived from renewable energy sources. This electricity is already 3 times more expensive than conventional electricity. Losses during storage will make it even more expensive.


We are not talking about average prices, but about "the last 10% in long term storage" (in a world of 100% reneable energies, In Germany mostly wind + PV). Wind energy in Germany (onshore) costs between 5-8 €ct/kWh, but on some days wind power plants are already shut down here. So we are talking about thrwoing away that electricity for nothing.

If the hydrogen will cost 15 €ct/kWh and the electricity from burning hydrogen will cost 50 €ct/kwh than this will be perfectly ok for "the last 10%".

Make mix of 70% wind energy at 8 €ct/kWh, 20% PV at 10 €ct/kWh, 10% water+biomass at 15 €ct/kWh in coming years and 30% at +5ct/kWh for short term storage together with 10% of hydrogen (or methane) long term storage (10% are losses in the short term storga systems) you end with an average price of ca. 15 €ct/kWh.
This is more expensive than today (average prices are around 6 €ct/kWh), but at only 3%/a inflation 6 ct today will be 15ct in 30 years anyway.

Not a problem as long as you are willing to pay more per unit of electricity. If you can afford it, go for it.


I now pay 25 €ct/kWh for "100% green electricity" and if I have to pay 50 €ct/kwh I will do so. Doesn't really matter to me, I have very efficient equippment. Even driving an electric car would be ok at such prices compared to our prices for gas.

I see this as a much more realstic (and desirebale) scenario compared to scenarios with no electricity and no gas at all or comapred to energy scenarios that involve destroying our ecosystems.

ymmv

The actual question is if renewable can sustain itself, very doubtful, but who knows, maybe it can.
Having a tiny 80M people or so nation turn "green" is not that hard, as long as you can export a large chunk of your carbon consumption to 3rd world producers.
The boxes in Germany's stores frequently read "made in china".
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Re: Hydrogen Storage Could Be Key to Germany's Energy Plans

Unread postby no_wuckin_ferries_mate » Wed 04 Apr 2012, 16:06:46

dsula wrote:Having a tiny 80M people or so nation turn "green" is not that hard, as long as you can export a large chunk of your carbon consumption to 3rd world producers.
The boxes in Germany's stores frequently read "made in china".


It is not a tiny nation but a powerhouse, that what I learned since I arrived in Germany six weeks ago.

Agree with the carbon, however, storing hydrogen which is difficult is not the only technique they are working on. The other is combining the hydrogen with CO2 which results in methane gas. Easy to store, easy to use.

With that they would not export carbon any more but seeking to import carbon :mrgreen:

Instead we would hear: Countries of the world, send all your unwanted CO2 to Germany, so we can power our powerhouse with it. - And don*t forget to send money as well, for the carbon certificates.
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Re: Hydrogen Storage Could Be Key to Germany's Energy Plans

Unread postby cephalotus » Wed 04 Apr 2012, 20:11:00

dsula wrote:The actual question is if renewable can sustain itself, very doubtful,


why is this doubtful?

Having a tiny 80M people or so nation turn "green" is not that hard,


There are not so many countries in the world that consume more kWh/km² than Germany. Sadly we also have little solar irradiation. 100% renewables would be much, much easer in the USA compared to Germany.

as long as you can export a large chunk of your carbon consumption to 3rd world producers.
The boxes in Germany's stores frequently read "made in china".


Germany's exports have been larger than 1 trillion Euros in 2011 and we have a huge trade sureplus. The boxes in Germany's stores frequently read "made in China" and the machinery in Chinese factories or power plants frequently reads "made in Germany". On the whole Germany is a (quite small) net importer of Carbon footprint because we import cheap but energy intensive raw products and export expensive and low carbon intensive stuff, but why should this limit our efforts to switch our electricity to a renewable system?
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Re: Hydrogen Storage Could Be Key to Germany's Energy Plans

Unread postby prajeshbhat » Thu 05 Apr 2012, 05:02:53

Got Storage? How Hard Can it Be?

Hydrogen Fuel Cell

What about electrolysis of water into hydrogen for later use either in fuel cells or combustion engines? I’ll ignore the combustion option, as the heat engine efficiency would be abysmal compared to the other storage options on the table. Batteries, gravitational storage, and flywheels can achieve better than 80% round-trip efficiency. Compressed air is harder for me to evaluate, lacking adequate knowledge on compression/extraction devices built for efficiency.

Electrolysis for the production of hydrogen tends to range between 50–70% efficient. Then the fuel cell converts the stored energy back into electricity at 40–60% efficiency for a round-trip efficiency of 20–40%. If you happen to want some of the waste heat, then you might boost the efficiency estimate (true for any of these storage methods, actually). But in a straight-up apples-to-apples comparison, the hydrogen method is a very lossy storage option. If it were dirt cheap and low-tech, I might be more excited about its potential, despite the poor efficiency. But since the opposite is true, I’m not revved up over hydrogen storage.

I spent some time searching for a hydrogen fuel cell that I could buy today with a rating in the 10 kW range (appropriate for a home). I saw some production models achieving efficiencies ranging from 40–53%, but never a price tag. If you have to submit a query to learn the price, you probably can’t afford it…


People who use renewable energy(solar panels etc.) in their homes often say that the first thing you must do is to lower your energy needs by 90%.

In the future, renewable energy will probably be used keep the lights on. In India, there is a company called Selco Solar. They install 40 watt systems in poor rural Indian homes. It charges during the day and stores electricity in batteries to be used during the night. Good enough to light 2 bulbs. Costs around $150.

This is the kind of adjustment most people around the world will have to consider. Electricity from fossil fuel plants that continue to operate for a few more decades will be reserved for the elites. It is nearly impossible to run an industrial civilization as on the current scale. Big wind turbines and megawatt scale solar plants will become unaffordable soon. Most of us will have to learn to live with 40 watt systems and 2 bulbs.
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Re: Hydrogen Storage Could Be Key to Germany's Energy Plans

Unread postby cephalotus » Thu 05 Apr 2012, 18:10:13

prajeshbhat wrote:Got Storage? How Hard Can it Be?

...
Electrolysis for the production of hydrogen tends to range between 50–70% efficient…


People who use renewable energy(solar panels etc.) in their homes often say that the first thing you must do is to lower your energy needs by 90%.

In the future, renewable energy will probably be used keep the lights on. In India, there is a company called Selco Solar. They install 40 watt systems in poor rural Indian homes. It charges during the day and stores electricity in batteries to be used during the night. Good enough to light 2 bulbs. Costs around $150.

This is the kind of adjustment most people around the world will have to consider. Electricity from fossil fuel plants that continue to operate for a few more decades will be reserved for the elites. It is nearly impossible to run an industrial civilization as on the current scale. Big wind turbines and megawatt scale solar plants will become unaffordable soon. Most of us will have to learn to live with 40 watt systems and 2 bulbs.


That's peak oil porno.

We are not talking about 40W solar systems in Germany, we are talking about 25 GW that are currently installed. Maybe more than 30GW by the end of 2012. Add to this almost 30GW of wind power.

Electricity demand for Germany is between 40GW and 80GW. This includes an industry that gave Germany a trade surplus of 157 billion Euro in 2011 and we have to import 97% of our oil and more than 80% of our natural gas. (for comparison the trade surplus of China was 113 billion Euro in 2011, the US trade deficit was around -500 billion Euro).

We now have for the first time the "problem" that we need to lower the output of nuclear and lignite power plants during sunny days and having lower electricity spot prices during day. So there is high demand for new storage systems and we try many different things, including compressed air (project Adele), but also hydrogen and synthetic methane projects. Also lots of new pump storage capacity is planned in Germany, but also in neighbouring Austria and Switzerland.

We built (alkaline) electrolysis systems with efficiency of 80% many years ago (see project hysolar for example).

So if you want to go the same way as Bangladesh and hope for a future with 40W home solar systems go for it. I prefer that we built an industrial country that makes new cars and machinery with solar and wind power and sell the to China or whoever has the money to pay for them.

Our 40W solar moduls sit on parking meters and summer houses. On our tpical houses we built 10kW systems. Such a modern house needs 2000kWh/a electricity for heating (geothermal heat pump), 2000kWh/a for hot water, 2000-3000 kWh/a for your electrical devices, so you have 3.000-4.000kWh to drive 20.000km/a with an electric car.

This is without energy storage, so we are very interested in them, battery systems in homes and long term storage systems for the grid.

The big problem is the price. The US has dirt cheap natural gas from the shale gas projects. Solar and wind are unable to compete with such prices. hydrogen from solar and wind is even more expensive, so building an industrial nation on renewable energies is not a matter of technology (everthing that is needed is already here, of course there is potential for improvement), but it is a matter of money and will.

There are many options to invest a trillion Euro. Start a war, build a nuclear industry, make a huge space exploration program, build suburbia concepts with millions of homes and a world based on car ownership or build a country based on renewable energy.You have to decide where you put your money and your resources.
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Re: Hydrogen Storage Could Be Key to Germany's Energy Plans

Unread postby prajeshbhat » Thu 05 Apr 2012, 23:38:38

cephalotus wrote:
That's peak oil porno.

We are not talking about 40W solar systems in Germany, we are talking about 25 GW that are currently installed. Maybe more than 30GW by the end of 2012. Add to this almost 30GW of wind power.

Electricity demand for Germany is between 40GW and 80GW.......


Meantime, in the real world

WAKE UP CALL? EU COUNTRIES REALIZING ENERGY SUBSIDIES ARE A DRAIN ON THE ECONOMY

As a means of addressing its severely struggling economy, Spain eliminated subsidies to the “green” energy industry this year, The Heritage Foundation reported in February.

And now Germany is following suit.

“Germany’s parliament approved record cuts in aid for solar power, aiming to reduce the annual pace of installations by half in the world’s biggest market for the industry,” Bloomberg reports.

“Subsidies will be cut by as much as 29 percent starting April 1, depending on the size of the solar plant, according to the legislation posted on the parliament’s website.”

“The measure passed by 305 votes to 235 on the strength of Chancellor Angela Merkel’s coalition majority,” the report adds.


Solar Millennium Files For Bankruptcy As Solar Shakeout Continues

.....German company Solar Millennium on Wednesday filed for insolvency, putting in doubt the future of its 2,250-megawatt pipeline of power plants.......


This is just the beginning. This is the shape of things to come. Get used to it. We are still enjoying the fossil fuel lottery ticket. They are still affordable to most of us. So it makes sense to conjure up grandiose schemes to run an entire industrial economy on the sun and the breeze. But as fossil fuel prices rise, these plans will become insolvent. The conventional logic is a sucker's bet(as fossil fuels become expensive, alternatives will become attractive). Nopes. Not this time. As conventional sources of energy become too expensive, no body will have the surplus money (or energy - the ability to do work) or the free time to worry about cornucopian delusions like limitless(renewable) energy.
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Re: Hydrogen Storage Could Be Key to Germany's Energy Plans

Unread postby SeaGypsy » Fri 06 Apr 2012, 01:18:45

Or do anything creative to get out of a dilemma? Not a chance humans might fast track fast breeder thorium & GTL to bridge the gap, no way?
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Re: Hydrogen Storage Could Be Key to Germany's Energy Plans

Unread postby cephalotus » Fri 06 Apr 2012, 05:23:58

prajeshbhat,

the German feed in tariffs for solar energy are cut every year and solar nstallations are stll growing. The German solar boom started at roughly 40-54ct/kWh in the year 2004 and in 2012 the feed in tariffs will be 13,5-19ct/kWh, depending on the size of the solar power plant.

We are now developing markets that work without any subsidies. I already pay 25ct/kWh for my electricity, so
PV is already cheaper than electricity from the grid. This is also true for small companies, super marktes and so on. But you need to use that electricity when the sun is shining. For some users that works quite fine, because they can consume every solar kWh they produce imidiatly, others need to the feed in tarrifs to give away excessive solar power to the grid.

Btw, we now have large companies building renewable energy systems for their facilities. BMW will make the new electric car i3 n a new factory in Lepizig where they will also build 4 large wind power plants and use that electricity directly and for the first charge of the car batteries.

Even without the wind plants the new factory uses a lot less electricity and water than previous factories. This is a side effect of expensive energy in Germany and a side effect, that you can sell the "green idea" to the public.
I now about a microchip company that plans to install solar on every roof top available on their facilities and also install a large battery system, because their peak demand is during hot summer days for cooling and they can already save money with photovoltaic. This is in cloudy Germany and for a company that uses as much electricity as a medium sized city.

If you install PV power plants in the middle east you will save more than 3 barrels of oil for your oil power plants. That's an additional export of roughly 350 US$/year and such a power plant now costs only 1500 US$/kWp in Germany (maybe 2000 US$/kWp in the middle east?)
You could replace many, many oil barrels directly with PV.

In Chile PV power plants are now cheaper than diesel power plants for remote mines.

In 10 years I assume / hope, that we (Germany) will be available to make more synthetic methane from excessive wind and solar energy than we now get out of our own small reserves.

I know about 10 planned (still small) systems with water electrolysis in Germany and I guess there are a lot more. We have no problems to generate enough electricity when the wind is not blowing and the sun is not shining (we exported lots of electricity during cold February, when demand was as high as 100GW in France and France hat not enough power, even after shutting down 8 nuclear reactors and even with natural gas shortage in southern Germany because of reduced gas exports from Russia. This was not without problems, but fact is, that nuclear France needed our electricity, not vice versa.).

Our much bigger problem is, that we have to much electricity from time to time, when the sun s shining and the wind is blowing. We get negative prices more and more often on the spot market, so we have a growing demand for systems that can make use of that excessive electricity. Pump storage, batteries, electric cooling and heating... Electric cars are not available in great numbers, they are way to late to be useable as smart demand system in the coming years.
So why not making hydrogen instead of throwing away that electricity but switching of wind and solar power plants. (which already happens sometimes).
80% conversation rate? So what? Better than 0% conversation rate.

The insolvencies in the solar industry are expected. In the end there will be maybe 10 large manufacturers of solar panels world wide and if all of them are in China, so let it be. Maybe 1 or 2 German solar panel manufacturers will survive , maybe 2-3 more where solar is part of a large portfolio like Bosch.

That's ok, survival of the fittest. We believe that those, that can do it the best way should survive. We want cheap solar energy and we can now produce solar energy in cloudy Germany in MW power plants for 10ct/kWh thanks to Chinese factories that sell solar panels at a loss.

There is still money to be made from inverters, silicium, glass, plastic sheets, in the planning and installation process, the installation material and sooner or later also electricity storage systems.

We have a lot of public and poltical discussion about solar panles, but these people do not undestand the solar market. To make the panels from the raw products now only is 10-20% of the cost of a solar system (and currently the money to be made of it even negative for >95% of all companies), so why focus of insolvencies n the solar modul industry.
Let the Chinese make the panels f they can make it cheaper. They also make socks, because the can do this cheaper.

Focus on making things where we still have some technological advantage, like hydrogen electrolysis from excessive electricity. This is a "problem" guess the Chinese will not have for the next 10-20 years, but we are having now.

The same people that are whing about not enough efficiency, to high costs and other problems are the same people that whined about photovoltaic, that was to expensive, not efficient and so on. They are now whining because solar panals are made in China.
Whiners do not win.

They really may end with a 40W systems and 2 bulbs.

The intersting thing is, that typically we Germany are the whiners and the Americans are the optimists.

You have a huge country with abundant wind and solar resources (much, much better than ours) and you have some dirt cheap gas to balance both in the switching period and enough coal to make so much plastics that you can cover the entire planet with it.
And stll you put almost all your money in campaignng against any climate protection, you are putting money in the nuclear industry, which could fill their promises during 60 years and you are opposing solutions that lay on your hand.
Why? Because you want to have ultra cheap energy until the last day and then you would want to live in some medieval collapse society farming your garden and feeding on your cans.

This are the things you are dreaming about, but making hydrogen out of wind is impossible?

Amazing.

Expensive fossil energy wll prevent us from buillding renewable systems?

Why do you think so? We now pay 1,70€/l of gasoline (roughly 8 US$/gallone) and the Autobahns are full of cars, some of them driving at 200km/h. I pay 25 €ct/kWh for my electricity and I can still whtach TV on the flat screen, surf the net, wash my clothes, cook and so on. If I have to pay 3€/l (15 US$/gallon) am able to do it, I am able to pay 50ct/kWh electricity and I have an income that is not so much above the average income.

Yes, I use my electric bike to go to work and I do not heat my whole home to +23°C during cold winter days. That's not, because I'm forced to do it, but because I want to do it.

Give me hydrogen/methane based on renewables for my car at an equivalent 15US$/gal and maybe I will buy that, give me deep geothermal heat at double my current heat prices (district heating from the waste heat from a gas power plant) I most likely will go for it. I already buy electricity that is made to 100% from wind, water and solar power plants in Germany.

Money is not a problem.

For the expenses our nations had for a war in Afghanistan that we already have lost we could have cut our oil use in half and creating millions of new jobs and being leaders in hydrogen production, renewable energy production, electric cars, hydrogen cars and whatever (or at least rebuilt some infrastructure in Afghanistan), instead we spent the money on bombs and soldiers. Don't tell me about lack of money or resources.

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Re: Hydrogen Storage Could Be Key to Germany's Energy Plans

Unread postby Graeme » Fri 06 Apr 2012, 20:03:34

How Renewable Electricity Generation in Germany Has Changed (Chart & Statistics)

I can’t remember where I ran across these — I think a reader shared them with me — but I started going through a bunch of old drafts of articles I wanted to write but never got to last night (Spring cleaning, I guess) and ran across them again. Basically, the image and tables below show how renewable electricity generation has changed over the years. Visit the German website I got all this from for more.


Image

As you can see, up until the late 1990s, the only renewable energy source for electricity generation that was at all significant was hydro power.
In the middle to late 1990s, wind power started growing and had grown to a significant share of the electricity supply by the early 2000s. In 2003, it surpassed hydro power for the #1 renewable energy source for electricity, and has held that position up until today.
Biomass has also grown a lot in the 2000s, and it passed up hydro in 2007.
Solar started growing later, but you can see that its big boom in 2010 and 2011 has resulted in it becoming a major player now, as well.
Of course, the chart also shows Germany’s significant renewable energy growth (in the electricity sector) overall.
For more details, here are tables to go with the image:


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Graeme
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