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The Geoengineering Thread Pt. 2

Re: Global Warming / Climate Changes Pt. 20

Unread postby dissident » Wed 12 Sep 2018, 01:39:29

Plantagenet wrote:
Sys1 wrote:What will be quite funny is when big coal or Donald Trump will say we must throw fossil fuels dust in the atmosphere faster "to save the planet" (tm) from GW.


Putting dust or microspheres or sulphuric aerosols into the stratosphere to cool the planet is already being tested by scientists who claim they can "geoengineer" the planet to counteract global warming.

Image
Coming soon to a sky near you.....


BS. SO2 has to be injected above 30 km in the stratosphere in the tropics in order for the Brewer-Dobson circulation and Rossby wave mixing in the "surf zone" to spread it horizontally towards the poles. Based on the Pinatubo signal, around 10 million tons per year need to be injected. If the SO2 is introduced at lower altitudes it will be flushed too fast into the troposphere and removed by wet scavenging. No jet can fly at 30 km. Only specialized planes such as the U-2 can fly at 22 km but not higher. The rapidly attenuating air density messes up air-foil boundary layer behaviour.

All the talk about planes, towers and cannons to deliver the SO2 is nothing but vapid bunk. The use of giant dirigibles is more plausible. Supposedly some designs would be able to carry 500 tons of payload. Assuming one trip per day we need 10,000,000/(365*500) = 55 of them. But none of the proposed designs would be able to reach 30 km since they are rigid or semi-rigid. Only true balloons can expand with altitude to reach about 35 km:

http://www.atmosp.physics.utoronto.ca/M ... _2002.html

This geo-engineering crap made a flash in the publications several years ago and is now in the hands of governments and assorted other shysters.
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Changes Pt. 20

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Mon 17 Sep 2018, 12:01:47

dissident wrote:BS. SO2 has to be injected above 30 km in the stratosphere in the tropics in order for the Brewer-Dobson circulation and Rossby wave mixing in the "surf zone" to spread it horizontally towards the poles. Based on the Pinatubo signal, around 10 million tons per year need to be injected.

From what I know, Mt Pinatubo have lowered global temperatures by 0.5 *C for 2 years at the expenditure of something like 30 million tons of SO2.
Lets say that we are fighting 5*C degree warming to reduce it to 3*C.
So we need to go down 2*C.
Assuming that in order to get 0.5 *C cooling 10 millions tons of SO2 per year is needed I suspect that for 1*C 20 millions tons would be needed, for 1.5*C it would be 40 millions tons per year and for 2*C it would be 80 millions tons per year as relation is not linear in this case.
So theoretically we could cool down the Earth up to 3-3.5 *C if we delivered to stratosphere *entire global production of sulfuric acid* round o'clock for decades and centuries.
I wonder what resulting acid rains would do to vegetation... and where the carbon from decomposing dead vegetations would go.

IMO entire concept of SO2 mediated cooling is plain stupid and unworkable.
But in postscience era any stupidity might be attempted.
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Changes Pt. 20

Unread postby dissident » Mon 17 Sep 2018, 13:50:06

EnergyUnlimited wrote:
dissident wrote:BS. SO2 has to be injected above 30 km in the stratosphere in the tropics in order for the Brewer-Dobson circulation and Rossby wave mixing in the "surf zone" to spread it horizontally towards the poles. Based on the Pinatubo signal, around 10 million tons per year need to be injected.

From what I know, Mt Pinatubo have lowered global temperatures by 0.5 *C for 2 years at the expenditure of something like 30 million tons of SO2.
Lets say that we are fighting 5*C degree warming to reduce it to 3*C.
So we need to go down 2*C.
Assuming that in order to get 0.5 *C cooling 10 millions tons of SO2 per year is needed I suspect that for 1*C 20 millions tons would be needed, for 1.5*C it would be 40 millions tons per year and for 2*C it would be 80 millions tons per year as relation is not linear in this case.
So theoretically we could cool down the Earth up to 3-3.5 *C if we delivered to stratosphere *entire global production of sulfuric acid* round o'clock for decades and centuries.
I wonder what resulting acid rains would do to vegetation... and where the carbon from decomposing dead vegetations would go.

IMO entire concept of SO2 mediated cooling is plain stupid and unworkable.
But in postscience era any stupidity might be attempted.


Thanks for the update. The 10 million figure came from one of the geoengineering papers I read about 12 years ago. The authors assumed less warming. So, as you note, the amount injected has to go up.

I always found the notion of using massive cannons to inject the SO2 via shells to be inane. The amount of powder gases released in the lower troposphere would be enormous. Leading to both massive health and environmental damage and also aerosol loading that would act to amplify the warming.

Then we have the little detail that the SO2 injected would destroy the ozone layer. This would contribute to tropospheric warming since the UV would reach deeper and form ozone at lower altitudes. In the troposphere, ozone is a greenhouse gas. And as you note, eventually the sulfate loaded into the stratosphere would be transported into the troposphere, where it would directly contribute to global acid rain. It would also increase the sulfate in the upper troposphere and tropopause layer leading to more diffuse cloud formation, which acts to trap IR in the troposphere while permitting visible solar radiation to pass to the surface.

It is indeed the post-science and post-thinking era. The era of knee-jerk group-think and lemming herding.
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Changes Pt. 20

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Mon 17 Sep 2018, 15:36:48

@Dissident,
Here is a very good, detailed study of Mt Pinatubo erruption:
https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com ... 03GC000654
Access is free.
It seems that about 20 millions of tons SO2 was produced as an average of few studies.
30 millions I have mentioned was an upper limit of one of studies discussed in this review.
Though it does not change anything at all in overall picture - idea is entirely unworkable and if attempted will cause immense damage to ecosystem while failing to achieve its objections.
But if growing number of prominent scientists and tech enterpreneurs/geeks *believe* in Multiverse or in ideas that all what we are is computer simulation, then our future is rather bleak.
Science is abandonig requirements of rigorous experimental evidence, or sometimes like in case of Multiverse or string theories it is abandoning requirements of *any* evidence at all, however slight.
Currently it is often driven by fashion, makeshift dogma and referrals to "authority" and it becomes a sort of religion.
So anything, however absurd, can be proposed.
Recently I have red about serious ideas of pumping of 5-20 billions of tons of oceanic water per year up into stratosphere and further nonsense about removing CO2 from atmosphere by giant zeolite based gas separators or/and artificial leaf technology.
I won't even go to details about energy reqirements, availabilty of materials and technological challenges related to such projects. Trivial back on the envelope calculations are showing how hopelessly stupid such ideas are in real world, eg pumping of single billion of tons of oceanic water 15 km up would require burning 100 Mt of coal, assuming 100% efficiency etc.
I also wonder what such an immense amounts of bromides and iodides present in sea water which are prone to photolysis by UV and ionizing radiation present in stratosphere would do to ozone layer.
I really don't know what is better, cry or laugh, when you read about such "projects".
I only hope that it is just taxpayer ripoff scam and deep down our scientists do know that it is nonsense.
Because if they don't then anything and everything is lost.
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Re: The Geoengineering Thread Pt. 2

Unread postby onlooker » Mon 26 Nov 2018, 17:25:32

https://www.rt.com/news/444762-global-warming-dim-sun/
Scientists have new plan to fight global warming: Dimming the sun

What about Photosynthesis?
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Re: The Geoengineering Thread Pt. 2

Unread postby Newfie » Mon 26 Nov 2018, 21:27:41

You mean like planting trees and/or not cutting them?

You are radical. ;)
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Changes Pt. 20

Unread postby jupiters_release » Tue 19 Feb 2019, 00:46:47

dissident wrote:
Plantagenet wrote:
Sys1 wrote:What will be quite funny is when big coal or Donald Trump will say we must throw fossil fuels dust in the atmosphere faster "to save the planet" (tm) from GW.


Putting dust or microspheres or sulphuric aerosols into the stratosphere to cool the planet is already being tested by scientists who claim they can "geoengineer" the planet to counteract global warming.

Image
Coming soon to a sky near you.....


BS. SO2 has to be injected above 30 km in the stratosphere in the tropics in order for the Brewer-Dobson circulation and Rossby wave mixing in the "surf zone" to spread it horizontally towards the poles. Based on the Pinatubo signal, around 10 million tons per year need to be injected. If the SO2 is introduced at lower altitudes it will be flushed too fast into the troposphere and removed by wet scavenging. No jet can fly at 30 km. Only specialized planes such as the U-2 can fly at 22 km but not higher. The rapidly attenuating air density messes up air-foil boundary layer behaviour.

All the talk about planes, towers and cannons to deliver the SO2 is nothing but vapid bunk. The use of giant dirigibles is more plausible. Supposedly some designs would be able to carry 500 tons of payload. Assuming one trip per day we need 10,000,000/(365*500) = 55 of them. But none of the proposed designs would be able to reach 30 km since they are rigid or semi-rigid. Only true balloons can expand with altitude to reach about 35 km:

http://www.atmosp.physics.utoronto.ca/M ... _2002.html

This geo-engineering crap made a flash in the publications several years ago and is now in the hands of governments and assorted other shysters.


Aluminum geo engineering:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kyxmrwbTKoM
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Re: The Geoengineering Thread Pt. 2

Unread postby jupiters_release » Wed 20 Feb 2019, 03:26:45

Well turns out some weathermen have already reported differentiating precipitation from geoengineering!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SipxiZabLxA

Cue a resident retard posting next aluminum's not toxic. :lol:
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Re: The Geoengineering Thread Pt. 2

Unread postby Plantagenet » Fri 23 Aug 2019, 18:10:56

Given the manifest failure of the UNFCC, the Kyoto Accords and the Paris Accords to stop the ever increasing amounts of CO2 emissions into the atmosphere, governments are now looking at ways to geoengineer the climate with new interest. Geoengineering now seems to be the only way to stop global warming and save the planet.

2019-seven-ways-geoengineering-planet.

Seven main varieties of geoengineering have been proposed. Unfortunately they are mostly too impractical or too expensive to actually do.

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Re: The Geoengineering Thread Pt. 2

Unread postby Tanada » Sat 24 Aug 2019, 07:34:25

Plantagenet wrote:Given the manifest failure of the UNFCC, the Kyoto Accords and the Paris Accords to stop the ever increasing amounts of CO2 emissions into the atmosphere, governments are now looking at ways to geoengineer the climate with new interest. Geoengineering now seems to be the only way to stop global warming and save the planet.

2019-seven-ways-geoengineering-planet.Seven main varieties of geoengineering have been proposed. Unfortunately they are mostly too impractical or too expensive to actually do.

Cheers!


As a rule of thumb letting incompetent humans decide what artificial strategies to attempt in their clumsy way gives me the willies. I have long advocated biochar for example as a soil amendment, but that is as much because it has been demonstrated to maintain fertility in tropical soils and alleviates the need for "slash and burn" agriculture in the tropics. I also think done properly and with caution ocean fertilization could be a large benefit through restoring the food chain from the bottom up for many threatened species. However both strategies need to be applied with common sense and not as a "the government said yes so all our eggs are going in this basket"! The third strategy I am in favor of is reforestation, especially in the arctic where the climate zones are already moving north. This is just a common sense idea, but it seems as if the authors want a one size fits all solution which is the typical government response.

Of the other strategies, biofuel growing with CCS is just plain stupid IMO. Any excess biofuels should be converted to char for soil amendment, not consumed as some halfhearted replacement for fossil fuels. CCS is incredible expensive and unlikely to change much in that aspect and biofuels have nowhere near the energy density of fossil fuels which is why humanity switched away from them in the first place. However if you take a "biofuel" solid and convert it into biochar almost 50% of the carbon in the mass is converted into char. Grinding and distributing powdered char into soils takes a little energy, but nowhere near what CCS takes, and the technology is well known and simple.

There is an additional strategy that was suggested decades ago I don't see anywhere on this list either. Gather crop residues and compress them into dense bundles of biomass, then drop them in places where delta formation is going on from every large river on the planet. The material sinks to the sea bottom and is soon buried in silt where it will be a stable undisturbed mass for thousands of years if not permanently. This has a leg up on the biochar system as it captures nearly all of the carbon in the plant residues. If you don't think baling the biomass is sufficient you hydraulically compress it into aluminum drums and seal them so that it won't be accessible to wildlife.
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Re: The Geoengineering Thread Pt. 2

Unread postby Newfie » Sat 24 Aug 2019, 08:00:54

Tanada,

I completely understand your “willies.”

Somewhere a long while ago I read that some of the geoengineering strategies are within the means of super rich individuals. The threat being that some one of them could take action in their own with bad results. Worse, that 2 or more entities could take uncoordinated action really screwing the pooch.

I’ve long come to the conclusion that we will end up geoengineering, it’s inevitable. It’s also likely we will screw it up big time.
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Re: The Geoengineering Thread Pt. 2

Unread postby Tanada » Sat 24 Aug 2019, 11:09:28

Newfie wrote:Tanada,

I completely understand your “willies.”

Somewhere a long while ago I read that some of the geoengineering strategies are within the means of super rich individuals. The threat being that some one of them could take action in their own with bad results. Worse, that 2 or more entities could take uncoordinated action really screwing the pooch.

I’ve long come to the conclusion that we will end up geoengineering, it’s inevitable. It’s also likely we will screw it up big time.


Indeed, I saw it suggested a few years back that all jet passenger aircraft should be required to have two sets of fuel. Clean type for liftoff and landing but with a very sulfur rich fuel for use at their cruising altitude. The idea being the sulfur dioxide at the top of the troposphere would act like a reflective layer as the tiny droplets of sulfuric acid attracted water to themselves forming a very thin persistent misty layer. The problem is of course any nation or even uber wealthy individual could do this. Just from the eruption of Mount Pinatubo back in the 1990's we know how much sulfur it takes to drop global temperatures over 1 degree C and how long that sulfur stays in the air before it comes down as acid rain. The problem is naturally enough multifold, one you are causing dilute acid rain to fall everywhere. Two you are giving people the idea that CO2 emissions don't mater because you are "compensating". Three when the next volcano does a Pinatubo suddenly the effect is vastly boosted by nature and you are stuck with it being too cold for your crops that need the solar energy being reflected away by the sulfur. I could go on but I think you get my drift.

All of the proposed solutions have one thing in common, if people believe we have a tech solution then they shrug off GW and assume technology will fix it. That totally ignores side issues like ocean acidification which is caused by high CO2 and would be made worse by artificial sulfur dioxide releases in the upper atmosphere causing acid rain.
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Re: The Geoengineering Thread Pt. 2

Unread postby GHung » Sat 24 Aug 2019, 15:59:31

Tanada wrote:
Newfie wrote:Tanada,

I completely understand your “willies.”

Somewhere a long while ago I read that some of the geoengineering strategies are within the means of super rich individuals. The threat being that some one of them could take action in their own with bad results. Worse, that 2 or more entities could take uncoordinated action really screwing the pooch.

I’ve long come to the conclusion that we will end up geoengineering, it’s inevitable. It’s also likely we will screw it up big time.


Indeed, I saw it suggested a few years back that all jet passenger aircraft should be required to have two sets of fuel. Clean type for liftoff and landing but with a very sulfur rich fuel for use at their cruising altitude. The idea being the sulfur dioxide at the top of the troposphere would act like a reflective layer as the tiny droplets of sulfuric acid attracted water to themselves forming a very thin persistent misty layer. The problem is of course any nation or even uber wealthy individual could do this. Just from the eruption of Mount Pinatubo back in the 1990's we know how much sulfur it takes to drop global temperatures over 1 degree C and how long that sulfur stays in the air before it comes down as acid rain. The problem is naturally enough multifold, one you are causing dilute acid rain to fall everywhere. Two you are giving people the idea that CO2 emissions don't mater because you are "compensating". Three when the next volcano does a Pinatubo suddenly the effect is vastly boosted by nature and you are stuck with it being too cold for your crops that need the solar energy being reflected away by the sulfur. I could go on but I think you get my drift.

All of the proposed solutions have one thing in common, if people believe we have a tech solution then they shrug off GW and assume technology will fix it. That totally ignores side issues like ocean acidification which is caused by high CO2 and would be made worse by artificial sulfur dioxide releases in the upper atmosphere causing acid rain.


I figured out some time back that it's a damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don't situation. The only workable option, IMO, is to reduce consumption of pretty much everything (AKA: greatly reduced human population), particularly 'virgin' resources. I also deduced that this will likely be forced by circumstances rather than voluntary or legislated.
Then, again, maybe we can try throwing some virgins into volcanoes.
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Re: The Geoengineering Thread Pt. 2

Unread postby Newfie » Sat 24 Aug 2019, 18:21:17

GHung....100% agree. Seems sooo obvious.
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Re: The Geoengineering Thread Pt. 2

Unread postby Plantagenet » Sat 24 Aug 2019, 23:01:19

The idea behind so-called Green GeoEngineering is to plant millions of trees, which will soak up CO2 as they grow.

But now we can see that won't work.

No one anticipated the magnitude of the forest fires that would be produced by global heating. The fires we are now seeing in Brazil and in the Congo and Angola and in Siberia and Alaska and elsewhere are burning millions of trees, and releasing their CO2 into the atmosphere. The same thing would happen if more trees were planted in a Green GeoEngineering campaign. The hotter and dryer it gets, the more forest fires (and more carbon release from burning forests) we are going to see.

Global Forests can no longer be considered a carbon sink........when the forests burn they become massive carbon sources.

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Re: The Geoengineering Thread Pt. 2

Unread postby asg70 » Sat 24 Aug 2019, 23:24:48

GHung wrote:The only workable option, IMO, is to reduce consumption of pretty much everything


Hear that Plant? LESS...FLYING...

Otherwise, STFU about climate change.

BOLD PREDICTIONS
-Billions are on the verge of starvation as the lockdown continues. (yoshua, 5/20/20)

HALL OF SHAME:
-Short welched on a bet and should be shunned.
-Frequent-flyers should not cry crocodile-tears over climate-change.
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Re: The Geoengineering Thread Pt. 2

Unread postby GHung » Sat 24 Aug 2019, 23:49:22

Newfie wrote:GHung....100% agree. Seems sooo obvious.


Which part? The virgins?
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Re: The Geoengineering Thread Pt. 2

Unread postby Newfie » Sun 25 Aug 2019, 06:16:19

ASG,

Knock off the personal attacks.

You can make intelligent posts but your effectiveness is degraded when you resort to these 4th grade comments.

Keep your hands to yourself, don’t make me turn around. :badgrin:
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Re: The Geoengineering Thread Pt. 2

Unread postby Newfie » Sun 25 Aug 2019, 06:18:19

GHung wrote:
Newfie wrote:GHung....100% agree. Seems sooo obvious.


Which part? The virgins?


Especially the virgins. I have the volcano franchise so just bring em by and drop ‘me off.

(Oh dang, now they will take me off suicide watch!)
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Re: The Geoengineering Thread Pt. 2

Unread postby Plantagenet » Sun 25 Aug 2019, 11:05:08

Newfie wrote:ASG..... can make intelligent posts


Please alert me when one finally appears.

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