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The Geoengineering Thread Pt. 2

Re: The Geoengineering Thread Pt. 2

Unread postby onlooker » Sat 04 Mar 2017, 15:10:36

Very good points P. Yes, undeniably all these grand schemes would require prodigious amounts of energy. That is one obstacle, the other is more like a risk in that these plans could have side effects and make things worse rather than better (the law of unintended consequences). Finally, as you rightly point out PO is going to take the first big bite out of Industrial Civilization not climate change. Myopic vision in this case is good.
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Re: The Geoengineering Thread Pt. 2

Unread postby careinke » Wed 08 Mar 2017, 04:35:08

Onlooker, I agree with P, with the exception of Biochar, that all of these schemes require vast amounts of energy making them impractical, uneconomical, and probably environmentally degrading.

Even Biochar is not economical on a large scale mass produced bases. Transportation of the feedstock's to the production facilities, processing, and then shipping back out to be buried would require a lot of ever dwindling energy. Good biochar has to be produced at certain temps and quickly cooled. This all adds to the price of biochar, making it a rather expensive soil amendment. Still, all hope is not gone.

Biochar is easier to implement at the local level, using local feedstock's, local construction materials, and local use of the biochar. By applying some permaculture principles the process can be profitable and regenerative. Lots of experimentation is going on with biochar on the small scale (village on down to the individual).

The smallest application is the use of cook stoves in poor countries that make biochar while producing heat for cooking. once the meal is cooked the biochar is cooled and put out in the garden. The stoves use less wood than the traditional cook fires while at the same time producing a soil amendment, (among other uses), that will also reduce the amount of water and nutrients needed for the soil to produce food. Local businesses have already been set up in several countries to produce and sell these stoves.

On a little larger scale, you can build a "TLUD" Biochar maker fairly inexpensively to make your own biochar pretty easily. You can check this out on You Tube.

Scale up a little and you can use the heat produced to dry your feedstock or heat your greenhouse. Throw your biochar into your active air compost tea mixture and you have a super inoculant that restores life to your soil requiring less and less inputs as the years go by.

Bottom line, I don't think you can do biochar in a centralized massive way, but you can do it with a massive number of little projects. Plus it would be good for the earth, good for people, and good for the future. Basically following the three Permaculture ethics. :)
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Re: The Geoengineering Thread Pt. 2

Unread postby Tanada » Wed 08 Mar 2017, 07:32:42

careinke wrote: Good biochar has to be produced at certain temps and quickly cooled. This all adds to the price of biochar, making it a rather expensive soil amendment. Still, all hope is not gone.

Biochar is easier to implement at the local level, using local feedstock's, local construction materials, and local use of the biochar. By applying some permaculture principles the process can be profitable and regenerative. Lots of experimentation is going on with biochar on the small scale (village on down to the individual).


Who gets to determine what is 'good biochar' and why do you trust their opinion? The Amazonian amerinds manufactured the stuff for centuries under all sorts of variable conditions and here we are 500 to 1,000 years later finding that their biochar has persisted in the hot wet jungle environment and is still both sequestering carbon and acting as a very valuable soil amendment.

Somehow the 'academics' got ahold of the idea of biochar and immediately wrote that it had to be produced under certain conditions to have the best possible qualities. Then this ultimate best quality was defined as 'good' and all other qualities were automatically downgraded to useless in the media and then that spread through the permie community.

The perfect is not only difficult to achieve on any kind of consistent basis, the perfect is the enemy of good. Not to mention that the 'perfect' as defined by the academics has only been tested on very short cycles.

We do know certain facts, primitively produced biochar lasts for hundreds to thousands of years in tropical soils where other forms of organic carbon rapidly decay into CO2. Primatively produced biochar used as a soil amendment has massively improved the tropical soils where it was added. Primatively produced biochar has kept the carbonaceous material (mostly wood) used in its manufacture from decaying into CO2 effectively sequestering it for many lifetimes.

Knowing just those three facts I think it is a massive mistake to get hung up on whether the biochar manufactured is the best quality possible as determined from what are actually very short term life cycle studies. Every bit of biochar used as a soil amendment is sequestered carbon, which is a good thing. Every bit of biochar used as a soil amendment adds to the organic carbon level of the soil and has a medium and long term effect of improving the soil in terms of workability and retention of minerals that act as fertilizers for plants. The only question at all is the short term effect of biochar which has given a broad range of results. Some research plots with first season biochar have done great, others have been no better or slightly worse than unamended soil. From all the data I have looked over it appears that treating the new biochar with compost tea or even urine solves the first season raw biochar tendency to absorb nutrients from the existing soil.
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Re: The Geoengineering Thread Pt. 2

Unread postby yellowcanoe » Wed 08 Mar 2017, 11:35:02

Tanada wrote:
That plan would be an unmitigated disaster. The water below the ice is above freezing, so pumping it out onto the existing ice means it would transfer about half of that energy to the existing ice and the other half to the atmosphere. Given the fact that ice accumulates energy faster than water releases it this plan would not thicken the ice, quite the opposite in fact. The only remotely possible way for this to work would be to desalinate the water into high purity fresh water and then chill it under high pressure. The last step would be spraying it out as a super cooled fluid a few meters above the ice so it will crystallize before reaching the ice floating on the surface. That is an enormously more complicated plan and needless to say it would also cost many times the proposed cost to actually build and operate such a system.


I agree the idea is completely impractical, however the concept has been used on a much smaller scale and for an entirely different reason. Panarctic Oils in the early 70's drilled a number of wells on artificially thickened sections of ice. Once the ice had thickened enough in the fall to support a Twin Otter a crew equipped with pumps would be flown in. Sea water was pumped onto the surface to create an ice slab large enough and thick enough to support a drilling rig. They may also have pumped water to help construct a runway capable of handling larger aircraft. Once the ice slab was thick enough to support a drilling rig, the rig, drilling crew and everything else they would need was flown in on C-130 Hercules aircraft.
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Re: The Geoengineering Thread Pt. 2

Unread postby onlooker » Wed 08 Mar 2017, 18:54:30

Thanks,everyone for those erudite and informative responses, each one of you contributes valuable info.That why this site is great, many smart people. So, we seem to be zeroing in on Biochar as a present and future great asset for society. I think this site is painstakingly arriving at future options to maintain a viable modern society. So by being overly critical of any "solutions" we are applying the scientific method rigorously, to arrive at truly promising ideas. By the way what about how to make the ocean less acidic ?
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Re: The Geoengineering Thread Pt. 2

Unread postby Cid_Yama » Wed 12 Apr 2017, 21:04:50

Shows just how disingenuous Trump Administration climate change denial is. If it's a hoax, why do we need geoengineering?

Under the Trump administration, enthusiasm appears to be growing for the controversial technology of solar geo-engineering, which aims to spray sulphate particles into the atmosphere to reflect the sun’s radiation back to space and decrease the temperature of Earth.

While geoengineering received little favour under Obama, high-level officials within the Trump administration have been long-time advocates for planetary-scale manipulation of Earth systems.

David Schnare, an architect of Trump’s Environmental Protection Agency transition, has lobbied the US government and testified to Senate in favour of federal support for geoengineering.

He has called for a multi-phase plan to fund research and conduct real-world testing within 18 months, deploy massive stratospheric spraying three years after, and continue spraying for a century, a duration geoengineers believe would be necessary to dial back the planet’s temperature.

Geoengineers argue that such methods would be an inexpensive way to reduce global warming, but scientists have warned it could have catastrophic consequences for the Earth’s weather systems.

Scientific modelling has shown that stratospheric spraying could drastically curtail rainfall throughout Asia, Africa and South America, causing severe droughts and threatening food supply for billions of people.

“Clearly parts of the Trump administration are very willing to open the door to reckless schemes like David Keith’s, and may well have quietly given the nod to open-air experiments,” said Silvia Riberio, with technology watchdog ETC Group. “Worryingly, geoengineering may emerge as this administration’s preferred approach to global warming. In their view, building a big beautiful wall of sulphate in the sky could be a perfect excuse to allow uncontrolled fossil fuel extraction. We need to be focussing on radical emissions cuts, not dangerous and unjust technofixes.”

A White House report on climate change research submitted to Congress in January called for the first time ever for research into geoengineering.

US Secretary of State Rex Tillerson has also appeared to support geoengineering, describing climate change as an “engineering problem.” ExxonMobil’s funding of the climate denial industry is under investigation by attorney generals in the United States, but it’s less well known that ExxonMobil scientists under Tillerson’s reign as CEO were leading developers of geo-engineering technologies like carbon dioxide removal.

Asked about solutions to climate change at an ExxonMobil shareholder meeting in 2015, Tillerson said that a “plan B has always been grounded in our beliefs around the continued evolution of technology and engineered solutions.”

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This is just downright criminal. And insane.
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Re: The Geoengineering Thread Pt. 2

Unread postby Plantagenet » Wed 12 Apr 2017, 21:33:11

Cid_Yama wrote:
Under the Trump administration, enthusiasm appears to be growing for the controversial technology of solar geo-engineering, which aims to spray sulphate particles into the atmosphere to reflect the sun’s radiation back to space and decrease the temperature of Earth.

While geoengineering received little favour under Obama, high-level officials within the Trump administration have been long-time advocates for planetary-scale manipulation of Earth systems.

David Schnare, an architect of Trump’s Environmental Protection Agency transition, has lobbied the US government and testified to Senate in favour of federal support for geoengineering.

He has called for a multi-phase plan to fund research and conduct real-world testing within 18 months, deploy massive stratospheric spraying three years after, and continue spraying for a century, a duration geoengineers believe would be necessary to dial back the planet’s temperature.

[/url]

This is just downright criminal. And insane.


Maybe. Maybe not.

We already know that sulphate aerosols can cool the atmosphere from observations of the climatic effects of volcanic eruptions. Given the dangers of global warming, it might smart to test this method to cool the planet.

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One method for injecting sulphates into the upper atmosphere to artificially cool the climate
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Re: The Geoengineering Thread Pt. 2

Unread postby dohboi » Wed 12 Apr 2017, 22:16:28

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: The Geoengineering Thread Pt. 2

Unread postby Cid_Yama » Wed 12 Apr 2017, 22:24:57

David Schnare, an architect of Trump’s Environmental Protection Agency transition, has lobbied the US government and testified to Senate in favour of federal support for geoengineering.

He has called for a multi-phase plan to fund research and conduct real-world testing within 18 months, deploy massive stratospheric spraying three years after, and continue spraying for a century, a duration geoengineers believe would be necessary to dial back the planet’s temperature.

Scientific modelling has shown that stratospheric spraying could drastically curtail rainfall throughout Asia, Africa and South America, causing severe droughts and threatening food supply for billions of people.


We are talking mass murder. On a scale Hitler couldn't even dream of. By starvation and loss of surface water resources. All so we don't cut into Exxon's profits.

In fact, enhance Exxon profits by using their Geoengineering technology they so conveniently have already developed.

At some point someone has to stand up and shout NO!

First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out--

because I was not a communist;

Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out--

because I was not a socialist;

Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out--

because I was not a trade unionist;

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out--

because I was not a Jew;

Then they came for me--

and there was no one left to speak out for me. - Martin Niemoller



So will the next version be:

First to die were the Indians, but I was not Indian

Then died the South Americans, but I was not South American

Next died the Africans, but I was not African

Now we are dying, and there is no one to save us


And if it curtails rainfall in China, do you think they will just lay down and die?

And India, might they not share their nukes to pay us back for what we did to them?


The cretin in the White House and his criminal cohorts need to go quickly.
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Re: The Geoengineering Thread Pt. 2

Unread postby Plantagenet » Wed 12 Apr 2017, 22:45:12

Cid_Yama wrote:if it curtails rainfall in China, do you think they will just lay down and die?


Global warming is going to cause sea level to rise. That in turn will flood some of China's richest agricultural land. Do you think China is just going to lay down and watch as their land gets flooded and millions of Chinese are turned into climate refugees?

I wouldn't be surprised if the Chinese start their own geoengineering projects. For instance:

geoengineering-china-climate-change

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China is at great risk from sea level rise
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Re: The Geoengineering Thread Pt. 2

Unread postby dohboi » Wed 12 Apr 2017, 23:13:55

That area between Shanghai and Qingdao (Shandong province) is almost all at or below one meter above sea level, iirc. We will likely reach that by mid century, or shortly thereafter, no matter what we do now.

Sea level rises of multiple meters are now locked in.

People can move.

But they can't live on dirt.
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Re: The Geoengineering Thread Pt. 2

Unread postby Plantagenet » Thu 13 Apr 2017, 14:52:46

Cid_Yama wrote:We are talking mass murder. On a scale Hitler couldn't even dream of....


Are you by any chance related to Trump's Press Secretary Sean Spicer? He also talks about Hitler when it isnt' appropriate. :lol:

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Trump Press Secretary Sean Spicer.....another person who likes to talk about Hitler

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Re: The Geoengineering Thread Pt. 2

Unread postby Cid_Yama » Thu 13 Apr 2017, 15:33:48

Except in this instance it IS appropriate.
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Re: The Geoengineering Thread Pt. 2

Unread postby asg70 » Thu 13 Apr 2017, 15:56:14

Cid_Yama wrote:We are talking mass murder.


Causing climate change in the first place is already mass murder (or suicide). What's the difference?

As far as rainfall patterns, notice what happened with California until the lucky stroke of massive rainstorms that have put the drought at bay. So rainfall is already highly disrupted. As icepacks melt we'll have serious freshwater crises. Etc....

Cid_Yama wrote:At some point someone has to stand up and shout NO!


Should we also key Hummers while we're at it? How about bomb cell phone towers ala Derrick Jensen? Sent letter bombs ala the unabomber?

First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out--


There's plenty of speaking out. Nobody's listening--hence Trump. Democracy at its finest.

The cretin in the White House and his criminal cohorts need to go quickly.


He was voted in fair and square, via the electoral college. Go convince his voting base that he "needs to go quickly". You're just saying that because you don't like him. Again, Democracy at its finest. We've met the enemy and it's us.

BOLD PREDICTIONS
-Billions are on the verge of starvation as the lockdown continues. (yoshua, 5/20/20)

HALL OF SHAME:
-Short welched on a bet and should be shunned.
-Frequent-flyers should not cry crocodile-tears over climate-change.
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Re: The Geoengineering Thread Pt. 2

Unread postby asg70 » Thu 13 Apr 2017, 15:59:05

Cid_Yama wrote:Except in this instance it IS appropriate.


No, it's not, because it's an attempt to isolate certain specific individuals as boogeymen while ignoring the diffuse blame inherent in humans NOT being smarter than yeast. You're still locked in warmed over 1960s stick-it-to-the-man activism that pretty much had its last gasp in Al Gore and Copenhagen 2008.

BOLD PREDICTIONS
-Billions are on the verge of starvation as the lockdown continues. (yoshua, 5/20/20)

HALL OF SHAME:
-Short welched on a bet and should be shunned.
-Frequent-flyers should not cry crocodile-tears over climate-change.
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Re: The Geoengineering Thread Pt. 2

Unread postby Plantagenet » Thu 13 Apr 2017, 16:05:21

Harvard University scientists to test geoengineering next year

Harvard-scientists-test-atmosphere-protecting-aerosols

The Harvard Scientists are going to release very small amounts of various aerosols into the troposphere to test their potential to cool the planet to counteract global warming.

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Re: The Geoengineering Thread Pt. 2

Unread postby Cid_Yama » Thu 13 Apr 2017, 16:11:47

David Schnare, an architect of Trump’s Environmental Protection Agency transition, has lobbied the US government and testified to Senate in favour of federal support for geoengineering.

He has called for a multi-phase plan to fund research and conduct real-world testing within 18 months, deploy massive stratospheric spraying three years after, and continue spraying for a century, a duration geoengineers believe would be necessary to dial back the planet’s temperature.

Scientific modelling has shown that stratospheric spraying could drastically curtail rainfall throughout Asia, Africa and South America, causing severe droughts and threatening food supply for billions of people.


We are talking mass murder. On a scale Hitler couldn't even dream of. By starvation and loss of surface water resources. All so we don't cut into Exxon's profits.

In fact, enhance Exxon profits by using their Geoengineering technology they so conveniently have already developed.


An appropriate observation in context. You can take your partisan crap and stick it where the sun don't shine.
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