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The Geoengineering Thread Pt. 2

Re: The Geoengineering Thread Pt. 2

Unread postby 35Kas » Wed 25 Nov 2015, 20:24:33

I am not so sure. If it comes between unforeseen consequences and certain death I'll roll the dice. It is much too soon to take desperate measures. In twenty years perhaps, when coastal cities start being submerged, migrations in the tens of millions cause mayhem, equatorial zones become uninhabitable, the stakes will be higher and peoples... predisposition to not consider certain options will be considerably softened.
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Re: The Geoengineering Thread Pt. 2

Unread postby Tanada » Sun 17 Apr 2016, 23:08:46

Dr. Paul Beckwith has spoken, he believes nuclear winter is a valid option to stop runaway warming before its too late to stop the tipping point.

https://youtu.be/EP5J3NFUjiw?t=6m20s
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Re: The Geoengineering Thread Pt. 2

Unread postby dohboi » Sun 17 Apr 2016, 23:23:05

He's just embarrassing himself more and more these days.

But I think this kind of thing does show just how utterly desperate people who have been following developments as they unfold are feeling.
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Re: The Geoengineering Thread Pt. 2

Unread postby onlooker » Mon 18 Apr 2016, 05:31:05

dohboi wrote:He's just embarrassing himself more and more these days.

But I think this kind of thing does show just how utterly desperate people who have been following developments as they unfold are feeling.

Yes, I think we should give them a pass, climate scientists have to bear the weight of what they know unequivocally and suspect. They do not get to hide their heads in the sand. :shock:
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Re: The Geoengineering Thread Pt. 2

Unread postby Subjectivist » Mon 18 Apr 2016, 10:25:12

dohboi wrote:He's just embarrassing himself more and more these days.

But I think this kind of thing does show just how utterly desperate people who have been following developments as they unfold are feeling.


This is a silly solution, there are dozens of types of jet aircraft that can fly at 55,000-65,000 feet altitude. By flying planes way up there burning high sulfur jet fuel you would get SO2 injected directly into the stratosphere without a volcano or nuclear war being needed.

Not that I am in favor of geoengineering, but if you are going to do it use a method that can be stopped quickly that will dissipate in 18-24 months, not something that causes massive overnight cooling and destroys crops world wide. You could even select aircraft with multiple fuel tanks so they can burn clean low sulfur fuel for take off and landing while burning the high sulfur stuff cruising way up where it won't rain out as acid rain over the next few weeks. You could also do the sulfur dioxide cooling effect selectively, over just the north in May-September and just the Southern Hemisphere in August-March.
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Re: The Geoengineering Thread Pt. 2

Unread postby dohboi » Mon 18 Apr 2016, 10:39:14

There seems to be something about the power of nukes that makes some people think that they are some kind of last resort to every single problem. I remember people talking about using them to stop the oil spill in the gulf a few years ago. Just stupid (and of course if these idiots had any power...dangerous!).
Don't know quite what the psychology is there.

As to using planes, you have to be careful. My impression is that, generally, the higher the clouds, the more likely that they will block more outgoing radiation than they block in coming (but someone should check me on that).

In any case, unintended consequences are pretty much certain to ensue, no matter what.
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Re: The Geoengineering Thread Pt. 2

Unread postby Subjectivist » Mon 18 Apr 2016, 10:51:55

dohboi wrote:There seems to be something about the power of nukes that makes some people think that they are some kind of last resort to every single problem. I remember people talking about using them to stop the oil spill in the gulf a few years ago. Just stupid (and of course if these idiots had any power...dangerous!).
Don't know quite what the psychology is there.

As to using planes, you have to be careful. My impression is that, generally, the higher the clouds, the more likely that they will block more outgoing radiation than they block in coming (but someone should check me on that).

In any case, unintended consequences are pretty much certain to ensue, no matter what.


The idea of using stratospheric altitude SO2 injection is to simulate the cooling effects of volcanos like Mount Pinatubo without all the even worse ash and radiation effects of nuclear explosives. You are right, there would no doubt be unintended side effects, which is why I oppose all geoengineering schemes. I am just saying, if we are going to do it, do it as safely and gently as possible.
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Re: The Geoengineering Thread Pt. 2

Unread postby Timo » Thu 21 Apr 2016, 13:21:34

I've actually given this question some thought recently about geoengineering. In some other thread here at PO, there's been a discussion of heroes for the 21st Century, and who we each consider to be a hero. My candidate for "hero" status was Elon Musk, and that stands even for his geoengineering scheme on Mars, which is to create an atmosphere by detonating thermonuclear bombs over both poles. I'm certainly not suggesting we try that here. I'm only wondering whether Elon Musk would be in favor of geoengineering here on Earth, or not, and if so, then how.

The reason i have so much respect for Elon is because he walks the talk, and his talk is spot on the issues that we face right now, and far into the future. Elon is extraordinarily successful in nearly everything he does, aside from staying married. I'd be curious to hear him speak on this issue, geoengineering Planet Earth to ensure its continued habitability with minimal consequences. Can it, and should it be done?

That same curiosity also applies to Stephen Hawking, too.
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Re: The Geoengineering Thread Pt. 2

Unread postby Timo » Fri 17 Jun 2016, 12:29:02

Some food for thought. Geoengineering is simply a band-aid, but a band-aid can stop you from bleeding to death. Sometimes, a band-aid is necessary if you want to survive.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/videos/2016-06-15/blocking-out-the-sun-to-fight-climate-change
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Re: The Geoengineering Thread Pt. 2

Unread postby JV153 » Sat 18 Jun 2016, 04:16:04

Timo wrote: Elon Musk, and that stands even for his geoengineering scheme on Mars, which is to create an atmosphere by detonating thermonuclear bombs over both poles.


This isn't some kind of Alfred E. Neuman like statement, is it ?
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Re: The Geoengineering Thread Pt. 2

Unread postby Tanada » Sat 18 Jun 2016, 07:31:41

Timo wrote:Some food for thought. Geoengineering is simply a band-aid, but a band-aid can stop you from bleeding to death. Sometimes, a band-aid is necessary if you want to survive.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/videos/2016-06-15/blocking-out-the-sun-to-fight-climate-change


Two major problems with every geoengineering scheme.
#1 the law of unintended consequences ALWAYS bites you! When you are talking about a world covering technology those consequences will be very large.

#2 the world economy is already bouncing around helter skelter with everything else going on, so how exactly are you going to pay for this stuff? You can print or digitize money out of thin air, but that doesn't mean the new money is stimulating the economy. To pay for these geoengineering schemes you will have to cut somewhere else, and everywhere else has a constituency that is loud, proud, and determined to keep their slice of the pie.
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Re: The Geoengineering Thread Pt. 2

Unread postby dissident » Sat 18 Jun 2016, 13:56:45

Injecting 10 million tons of SO2 at 30 km (it will not be effective at 20 km) every year is not technologically feasible.

1) Building towers this high is absurd.

2) No aircraft can cruise at 30 km (22 km is the ceiling and only U2 type aircraft can do it). I have actually seen seminars where aircraft were being proposed; these people clearly had no clue about stratospheric transport.

3) sending in rockets or firing shells from massive guns on the surface is just insane. The chemical impact from propellant release and any explosive dispersion in the stratosphere would be huge.

Geoengineering is technotopian magical thinking.
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Re: The Geoengineering Thread Pt. 2

Unread postby onlooker » Sun 29 Jan 2017, 19:23:57

So, I find this article detailing different possibilities for Geoengineering. I hope you guys can comment as this is looking like maybe the only way left to keep the climate system from becoming totally hostile to most life currently on Earth. In particular Tanada and Dissident what do you think of "Another approach is suggested by Nualgi.com who propose to add iron and other trace metals/micro nutrients to the water in order to stimulate growth of a specific type of phytoplankton called diatom algae, which through photosynthesis absorb carbon dioxide in the water and add oxygen. The oxygen is then used by methanotroph bacteria to oxidize methane. "
Here is link to full article http://arctic-news.blogspot.com/p/oxyge ... rctic.html
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Re: The Geoengineering Thread Pt. 2

Unread postby JV153 » Mon 30 Jan 2017, 01:44:00

onlooker wrote:So, I find this article detailing different possibilities for Geoengineering. I hope you guys can comment as this is looking like maybe the only way left to keep the climate system from becoming totally hostile to most life currently on Earth. In particular Tanada and Dissident what do you think of "Another approach is suggested by Nualgi.com who propose to add iron and other trace metals/micro nutrients to the water in order to stimulate growth of a specific type of phytoplankton called diatom algae, which through photosynthesis absorb carbon dioxide in the water and add oxygen. The oxygen is then used by methanotroph bacteria to oxidize methane. "
Here is link to full article http://arctic-news.blogspot.com/p/oxyge ... rctic.html


Might work.. but how you prevent it from sucking up all the CO2, which might be a problem, for obvious reasons.
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Re: The Geoengineering Thread Pt. 2

Unread postby onlooker » Mon 13 Feb 2017, 07:45:07

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/ ... are_btn_fb
Could a £400bn plan to refreeze the Arctic before the ice melts really work?
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Re: The Geoengineering Thread Pt. 2

Unread postby Tanada » Mon 13 Feb 2017, 10:20:24

onlooker wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/feb/12/plan-to-refreeze-arctic-before-ice-goes-for-good-climate-change?CMP=share_btn_fb
Could a £400bn plan to refreeze the Arctic before the ice melts really work?



That plan would be an unmitigated disaster. The water below the ice is above freezing, so pumping it out onto the existing ice means it would transfer about half of that energy to the existing ice and the other half to the atmosphere. Given the fact that ice accumulates energy faster than water releases it this plan would not thicken the ice, quite the opposite in fact. The only remotely possible way for this to work would be to desalinate the water into high purity fresh water and then chill it under high pressure. The last step would be spraying it out as a super cooled fluid a few meters above the ice so it will crystallize before reaching the ice floating on the surface. That is an enormously more complicated plan and needless to say it would also cost many times the proposed cost to actually build and operate such a system. We can't even get people to build desalination systems on the California coast when they have frequent droughts, what do you think the odds are of getting them to build such an insane number on the Siberian/Alaska/Canada/Greenland coast? No point in building them in Scandinavia, the gulf stream keeps ice away from that coast.
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Re: The Geoengineering Thread Pt. 2

Unread postby onlooker » Mon 13 Feb 2017, 10:32:51

Thanks T. on second thought maybe no thanks haha
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Re: The Geoengineering Thread Pt. 2

Unread postby Rod_Cloutier » Sun 19 Feb 2017, 20:43:11

I saw this interesting and alarming interview today about how chemtrail spraying has been intensified. The fellow being interviewed, Dane Washington, knows his stuff, clearly he is not a tinfoil hat nut, and it is worrisome about the quantities of poisons being dumped into the air right now in order to deflect sunlight and accomplish SRM.

"We are facing converging cataclysms. When people focus on jobs, economy and retirement, how much will any of that matter if we have a planet that doesn’t support life? If we lose our habitat and every breath we take is full of toxic heavy metal that is making us sicker and dumber by the day . . . . And my only goal is to bring this issue to light and to a halt. We know we have major collusion between all the major powers in the world on this issue. The single biggest leap we can take in the right direction is to expose and stop weather engineering which is weather warfare, and stop these programs (commonly known as chemtrails) in their tracks.” "


https://youtu.be/oKItH69Jj2M?t=41s

He also has a website devoted to stop the spraying which has numerous interesting videos, articles and commentary:

http://www.geoengineeringwatch.org/
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Re: The Geoengineering Thread Pt. 2

Unread postby Zarquon » Wed 22 Feb 2017, 10:20:23

http://www.geoengineeringwatch.org/

"The latest completely engineered winter weather assault to be launched on US populations is the theatrically named "Winter Storm Europa" How severe does the rapidly worsening weather whiplash have to get before populations face the fact that ongoing global climate engineering/weather warfare programs are decimating and derailing Earth's climate and life support systems?
...
The storm severity map below clearly shows the epicenter of the extreme weather from "WInter Storm Europa" is directly on top of the Dakota Water Protector protest zone."

"From climate engineering to forced vaccinations, the walls are closing in. All of us are needed in the critical effort to sound the alarm."

"It is imperative that we all work together toward the goal of making the population as a whole understand that virtually all their “weather” is being completely manipulated. That there is NO NATURAL WEATHER at this point. That we are all the victims of “weather warfare” and many of us will soon be climate refugees if we are not able to bring the climate engineering to light and to a halt. On top of all this we are all literally being poisoned by the toxic metal fallout from these programs, but that’s another story."

"The picture above is the HAARP ionosphere heating facility in Alaska. There are numerous ionosphere heating installations around the globe that are used to manipulate the jet stream into historically unprecedented patterns."

"Those that choose to believe these blatant lies simply do not yet want to wake up. Here is the fact of the matter, all commercial jet aircraft and all military tankers are fitted with a type of jet engine that is by design nearly incapable of producing any condensation trail except under the most extreme circumstances, the high bypass turbofan."

http://usawatchdog.com/chemtrails-are-g ... wigington/

Clearly not a tinfoil hat nut. Not at all. And he needs YOUR donation!
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Re: The Geoengineering Thread Pt. 2

Unread postby onlooker » Sat 04 Mar 2017, 14:45:14

Okay here are seven Geoengineering ideas that this article claims could "Save Humans from Climate Change" Critiques welcomed
http://www.treehugger.com/natural-scien ... hange.html
1. Spray Sulfate Aerosols Into The Atmosphere
Though cited by a number of reports as being rather risky due to potential unintended consequences, the idea behind spraying sulfur particles into the atmosphere goes something like this: By using large balloons or aircraft to put more sulfur particles into the stratosphere, you could reduce the Earth's absorption of of sunlight and prompt planetary cooling. Similar to what happens when volcanoes erupt and put ash and sulfur into the air.

The downside? According to an article in Science doing this could trigger chemical reactions which would lead to destruction of the ozone layer.
2. Trap CO2 in Carbon Scrubbers

Perhaps two years from being manufactured, researchers at Columbia University say that soon they may have a working carbon scrubber which could take one ton of CO2 out of the air per day. Small than a standard shipping container in size, and about $200,000 in price, these carbon scrubbers trap CO2 entering them on an ion exchange resin. The CO2 then can be either buried or used in other ways. Sounds like an interesting idea? It is, but as the device's developers point out, hundreds of millions of these would have to be deployed to suck up all the excess carbon emissions so this would only be part of any planetary medicine we'd be practicing.
3. Fertilizing Trees With Nitrogen
The idea here is said easily enough: Fertilize trees with nitrogen to stimulate their ability to absorb more carbon dioxide and, by increasing their albedo, reflect more solar radiation back into space. Voila! You've begun cooling the planet. Not so fast...

Fellow TreeHugger Jeremy Elton Jacquet :

For one thing, little is still known about the relationship between albedo and nitrogen; even if the nutrient does act as a switch that changes the leaves' structure to increase their albedo, only certain species would be able to take advantage of this property. As a result, if we wanted to apply this method on a sufficiently large scale to effect carbon emissions, we would have to plant entire forests made just out of those few species.
And then there are all the environmental downsides associated with high nitrogen concentrations: nitrous oxide emissions (a far more potent greenhouse gas), groundwater contamination and drying (trees that consume larger amounts of nitrogen need more water), just to name a few.

4.Aerial Reforestation
Planting new trees in areas deforested by natural disaster or human action could increase the carbon sink potential of a given area of land, but given how much previously forested land has been cleared of trees in recent years, to complete the job quickly enough some scientists have proposed using airplanes to drop tree seedlings over wide areas of land.

Tested on an episode of Discovery Project Earth, tree seedlings were encased in a variety of biodegradable containers (to test which cradled the tree best for its journey back to Earth) and dropped from slow moving airplanes. As the episode shows, bringing an idea like this from concept to fruition is easier said than done. Without entirely giving away the show's ending, we all better grab the nearest spade and get planting trees. At least until better delivery methods are developed.

5. Dump Limestone into the Oceans
This one's a bit of a ringer in the group, in that rather than combatting global warming directly, plans for dumping powdered limestone in the ocean would mainly address anticipated increasing ocean acidity. Due to these changes in pH levels in the world's oceans brought about by climate change, most of the planet's coral reefs could be wiped out, with devastating consequences for marine life and the humans which depend on it. But, by adding large amounts of powdered limestone to the sea these changes in water acidity could be checked--with the added bonus of increasing carbon sequestration as well.

If you're wondering about side effects, you're not alone. At this point the whole procedure is very much theoretical, add even if everything went exactly as planned it could take decades and billions of tons of limestone for the plan to work.
6.Ocean Iron Fertilization
Essentially mimicking natural processes, ocean iron fertilization hopes to stimulate the rate of photosynthesis in phyto plankton, increasing the amount of carbon dioxide which is absorbed, and creating essentially an artificial algae bloom. The thing is that the CO2 absorbed has to sink to sufficient depth (a couple of miles) so that it won't simply be circulated back up into the atmosphere.

How effectively this works is a debate that swings both ways: A recent study published in Nature says that at least in one experiment in the Crozet Islands the results were less than stellar. The carbon sequestered was far less than theoretically predicted. That said, not everyone agrees with the conclusion drawn by both the researchers or journalists (predictions of ocean iron fertilization's death are greatly exaggerated...) on the effectiveness of this procedure.

However, new tests in the South Atlantic have recently begin given permission to proceed which will study the role of iron in the global climate system. The organizers of the study, the Alfred Wegener Institut, specifically say that they are not study ocean iron fertilization, but nevertheless, the results of their research will be of interest to both proponents and opponents of this geoengineering procedure.
7.Enrich Soils With Biochar
Sometimes called a modern version of the ancient Amazonian agricultural practice of Terra Preta, biochar promises to both enrich soils and soak up excess carbon dioxide. How it works is this:

Biochar is a fine-grained charcoal high in organic carbon and largely resistant to decomposition. It is produced from pyrolysis of plant and waste feedstocks. As a soil amendment, biochar creates a recalcitrant soil carbon pool that is carbon-negative, serving as a net withdrawal of atmospheric carbon dioxide stored in highly recalcitrant soil carbon stocks. The enhanced nutrient retention capacity of biochar-amended soil not only reduces the total fertilizer requirements but also the climate and environmental impact of croplands. Char-amended soils have shown 50 - 80 percent reductions in nitrous oxide emissions and reduced runoff of phosphorus into surface waters and leaching of nitrogen into groundwater. As a soil amendment, biochar significantly increases the efficiency of and reduces the need for traditional chemical fertilizers, while greatly enhancing crop yields. Renewable oils and gases co-produced in the pyrolysis process can be used as fuel or fuel feedstocks. Biochar thus offers promise for its soil productivity and climate benefits. (International Biochar Initiative)
Sounds easy, but will it actually do any good? A recent study on different geoengineering methods said that, combined with reforestation, biochar has greater short term cooling potential than ocean fertilization, and that it was a "win-win for soil fertility as well as the climate." What's more, James Lovelock calls biochar our one last chance to save ourselves from devastating temperature increases.
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