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THE Gasoline Price Thread Pt. 5

General discussions of the systemic, societal and civilisational effects of depletion.

Re: US Administration likes high gasoline prices

Unread postby babystrangeloop » Fri 02 Mar 2012, 12:18:18

Did TPTB deliberately plant Obama in office because they knew whoever was there would be the fall guy for peak oil? DId they want to put a particular type of face in front of the inevitable conditions?
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Re: US Administration likes high gasoline prices

Unread postby pstarr » Fri 02 Mar 2012, 12:24:59

babystrangeloop wrote:Did TPTB deliberately plant Obama in office because they knew whoever was there would be the fall guy for peak oil?
so did the TPTB plant Bush in office during the 2005 C/C peak? or Nixon for the 1972 US peak? But then would TPTB really need a "fall guy?" After all, they are TPTB :|
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Re: US Administration likes high gasoline prices

Unread postby Sixstrings » Fri 02 Mar 2012, 12:39:54

pstarr wrote:The EIA just concluded that high oil prices are a function of the supply/demand equation..


It took a blue ribbon panel to figure that out? :?:

Monetary inflation is another factor though, but at the core is peak oil combined with rising Asian demand -- then the speculators pile in with the free money they get handed from the Federal Reserve.

I suppose it is reasonable to conclude that the Obama and his Evil Democrats are guilty of the supreme evil; the TRUTH.


Well they're not really saying "the truth." The truth is is that we're now at the short end of the globalist free trading bullsh*t stick. The truth is that Repubs and Dems have both sold the nation out with these past decades of offshoring and the bill has come due. The real truth is, "get ready to live like Chinese."

Obama can't really come out and say that, so he just says "it's a world market," and "the Chinese want that oil too."

This is definitely a marked difference in presidential response to high gas prices. I remember Bush, he went over to Saudi and begged and begged -- but didn't come home with any more oil. So now Obama, this is a change basically it's "what can you do, that Indian in Punjab who took your job wants a car." Meanwhile Obama is pushing a Pacific-wide NAFTA, gee thanks let's really kick America while she's down.

To be clear, Mitt Romney is no alternative -- what Obama has been doing are REPUBLICAN polices. Republicans and corporatist Democrats, they're are *exact same thing*, they're globalist free trade dealing offshoring capitalists.

I get so tired of the YAP CLASS blaming anything but peak oil.


I agree. I've been noticing some recognition of peak oil, just read an article that mentioned "oil supplies that can barely keep up with rising world demand." They don't come out and say the words peak oil but it means the same. Funny thing by the way is that demand in the US is DOWN BIG TIME and yet the prices keep climbing.

I think the US is heading for a Greece situation, where we'll be suffering and suffering but nobody really cares -- it's a Chinese century now, their demand will continue to rise even if we Americans are all pushing rickshaws. There's nothing we can do, no matter how much we cut back demand will keep growing from the rest of the world, as Obama said "it's a world market." Romney wants that keystone pipeline but guess what -- the oil would still be exported.
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Re: US Administration likes high gasoline prices

Unread postby pstarr » Fri 02 Mar 2012, 12:53:11

"get ready to live like Chinese." if we are lucky. The Chinese, previously conservative communists, are better suited for an energy-constrained post-peak world with an infrastructure still vastly less dependent on gas-guzzling automobile. Our great tragedy is we discovered and built around cheap oil first. american empire is over. the world will be a safer place when americans wake up to the truth.
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Re: US Administration likes high gasoline prices

Unread postby babystrangeloop » Fri 02 Mar 2012, 12:57:20

pstarr wrote:
babystrangeloop wrote:Did TPTB deliberately plant Obama in office because they knew whoever was there would be the fall guy for peak oil?
so did the TPTB plant Bush in office during the 2005 C/C peak? or Nixon for the 1972 US peak? But then would TPTB really need a "fall guy?" After all, they are TPTB :|

1. Nixon during the 1971ish US peak - nobody had ever seen anything like it before. How could anyone know the need to plant a fall guy?
2. Bush during the 2005 C/C peak - who better to plant than a someone who could play the theatrical games and entice the wealthy and had some basic understanding about oil?
3. Obama in 2008 - who better to take the fall than a black man?
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Re: US Administration likes high gasoline prices

Unread postby Plantagenet » Fri 02 Mar 2012, 13:04:45

Sixstrings wrote:what Obama has been doing are REPUBLICAN polices.


Don't be silly. Obama is the leader of the DEMOCRATS. His energy policies are DEMOCRATIC policies---thats why they are supported by Democrats and opposed by Republicans.

Take the KeystoneXL Pipeline, for example....the DEMOCRAT policy is to block the pipeline and the tens of thousands of jobs it would bring, while Republicans support it.
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Re: US Administration likes high gasoline prices

Unread postby pstarr » Fri 02 Mar 2012, 13:09:06

Why would tptb even need a fall guy? they are wealthy powerful and believe they are immune to consequences. plus tptb did not cause peak oil, are not to blame, and therefore wouldn't need to waste their times creating diversions.
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Re: US Administration likes high gasoline prices

Unread postby pstarr » Fri 02 Mar 2012, 13:11:37

Plantagenet wrote:
Sixstrings wrote:what Obama has been doing are REPUBLICAN polices.


Don't be silly. Obama is the leader of the DEMOCRATS. His energy policies are DEMOCRATIC policies---thats why they are supported by Democrats and opposed by Republicans.

Take the KeystoneXL Pipeline, for example....the DEMOCRAT policy is to block the pipeline and the tens of thousands of jobs it would bring, while Republicans support it.
bush invaded iraq for oil. obama got us out.
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Re: US Administration likes high gasoline prices

Unread postby Sixstrings » Fri 02 Mar 2012, 13:13:05

Take the KeystoneXL Pipeline, for example....the DEMOCRAT policy is to block the pipeline and the tens of thousands of jobs it would bring, while Republicans support it.


Plant, just like Obama says oil and gasoline too IS A WORLD MARKET. The pipeline is intended to get the oil to the gulf coast refineries -- not gas into your car. From there IT'S A WORLD MARKET.

But some critics of the pipeline are questioning this claim, saying much of the oil could end up as gasoline and diesel fuel exported to Europe and Latin America.

“The oil industry will sell their product where they will get the best price for it, (and) markets for diesel, in particular, are much more profitable abroad,” said Steve Kretzmann of Oil Change International, a clean-energy group opposed to the pipeline. “Those are growing markets. That’s what we base the assertion that this is primarily an export pipeline on.”
http://billingsgazette.com/news/state-and-regional/montana/article_f2e54343-51ba-57e7-89bd-a2656901ba62.html


We need a Pro-America political party, we need to get away from the elite controlled Republican-Democrat cabal, it's Republicans and Clinton "New Democrats" -- essentially Republicans -- who wrecked everything.

Also..

A lot of the pipeline opposition is actually local, farmers and ranchers. People don't want this pipeline going through their land, sheesh from Canada to Louisiana that's a long one can you imagine the mess? And you know what, we can just bring the oil down there by train or better yet build refineries closer to the supply without a continent-spanning crude pipe.

Bottom line.. the core issue here is that we offshored our industrial base that's WHY there's insatiable demand coming out of Chindia. Doesn't matter how much we drill or refine, China and India have 2.5 billion people and all the other growing countries wan the oil and gas too.
Last edited by Sixstrings on Fri 02 Mar 2012, 13:22:22, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: US Administration likes high gasoline prices

Unread postby Plantagenet » Fri 02 Mar 2012, 13:20:28

Sixstrings wrote:Plant, just like Obama says oil and gasoline too IS A WORLD MARKET. The pipeline is intended to get the oil to the gulf coast refineries -- not gas into your car. From there IT'S A WORLD MARKET.


Every bit of oil is already in the "WORLD MARKET". If China wants to go to Alberta or Cushing Oklahoma or Seattle or New York or Texas and buy oil they can do so right now. If the US wants to go to Saudi or Beijing and buy oil we can do that now as well. The Pipeline doesn't change that a bit.

All that Obama and the Democrats do by blocking the US pipeline is destroy US jobs building the pipeline, and destroy the jobs of US workers who would have had high paying jobs at the US refineries.
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Re: US Administration likes high gasoline prices

Unread postby pstarr » Fri 02 Mar 2012, 13:33:14

Plantagenet wrote:
Sixstrings wrote:Plant, just like Obama says oil and gasoline too IS A WORLD MARKET. The pipeline is intended to get the oil to the gulf coast refineries -- not gas into your car. From there IT'S A WORLD MARKET.


Every bit of oil is already in the "WORLD MARKET". If China wants to go to Alberta or Cushing Oklahoma or Seattle or New York or Texas and buy oil they can do so right now. If the US wants to go to Saudi or Beijing and buy oil we can do that now as well. The Pipeline doesn't change that a bit.

All that Obama and the Democrats do by blocking the US pipeline is destroy US jobs building the pipeline, and destroy the jobs of US workers who would have had high paying jobs at the US refineries.
so this discussion is not really about obama and the democrats wanting high oil prices? Apparently you just changed the subject once again to reflect your anti-obama obsession. i always assumed it was republican union-busting that destroyed the american working class, and stole their high-paying jobs.
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Re: US Administration likes high gasoline prices

Unread postby Sixstrings » Fri 02 Mar 2012, 13:36:56

Plantagenet wrote:Every bit of oil is already in the "WORLD MARKET". If China wants to go to Alberta or Cushing Oklahoma or Seattle or New York or Texas and buy oil they can do so right now. If the US wants to go to Saudi or Beijing and buy oil we can do that now as well. The Pipeline doesn't change that a bit.


We're getting somewhere, you just admitted the gasoline wouldn't necessarily go to the US. And the oil going through the pipe is still priced at world market price -- that price is still going up and up.

Even if we get most of that Canadian oil, then the Chinese will just buy the Saudi oil it all washes out Plant. The core issue here, the crux of all this, is more worldwide demand than we have worldwide supply. The pipeline doesn't solve that. A pipeline moves oil it doesn't grow it. May as well let the Chinese buy it out of Vancouver and we'll keep buying it from the Saudis, it makes no damn difference so why have a pipeline ruining good farm and ranch land and possibly the water tables across the whole frickin' continent?

All that Obama and the Democrats do by blocking the US pipeline is destroy US jobs building the pipeline, and destroy the jobs of US workers who would have had high paying jobs at the US refineries.


Those are temporary jobs, what do you do with the workers after it's built? *shrugs*

You're still avoiding the crux of all this, our industry has been offshored to Asia -- building a pipeline here makes no difference, it's a world market, the industry and growing demand is still outside the US. US demand will continue to fall as the US continues to fall, meanwhile the "worldwide market" price will keep going up even if, as I said, every American is reduced to pushing a rickshaw that price is still going up.
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Re: US Administration likes high gasoline prices

Unread postby careinke » Fri 02 Mar 2012, 14:07:28

Sixstrings wrote: And you know what, we can just bring the oil down there by train or better yet build refineries closer to the supply without a continent-spanning crude pipe.
[/b]


Interesting. I wonder what the efficiency would be for train transport vs a pipeline? Also, if I understand correctly, the opposition to the pipeline, is primarily to protect the aquifer under the pipeline. Is a train full of oil safer than a pipeline? How about a refinery built on top of the aquifer?
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Re: US Administration likes high gasoline prices

Unread postby pstarr » Fri 02 Mar 2012, 14:37:39

careinke wrote:
Sixstrings wrote: And you know what, we can just bring the oil down there by train or better yet build refineries closer to the supply without a continent-spanning crude pipe.
[/b]


Interesting. I wonder what the efficiency would be for train transport vs a pipeline? Also, if I understand correctly, the opposition to the pipeline, is primarily to protect the aquifer under the pipeline. Is a train full of oil safer than a pipeline? How about a refinery built on top of the aquifer?

that is how it is done already and why cushing sells at a discount. the additional cost of hauling (by train or truck) the oil out is factored into the trading price, and hence it is cheaper.
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Re: US Administration likes high gasoline prices

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Fri 02 Mar 2012, 15:07:18

Sixstrings wrote:[Those are temporary jobs, what do you do with the workers after it's built? *shrugs*


News flash!! All construction jobs are temporary jobs. The workers will just move on to the next project which there are plenty of waiting on the back burner for funding.

I also think the worry about the aquifer is overblown. They will not be pumping finished gasoline through the line but a very heavy crude. Much easier to clean up in the event of a spill.
Considering how much energy it takes to get this bitumen free from it's sandstone base this will always be oil with a high marginal cost but we may soon be down to oils in this price range so adding unnecessary cost to it makes no sense and we may soon not have the option of replacing it with Saudi or any other ME crude.
Last edited by Tanada on Fri 02 Mar 2012, 21:01:48, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: US Administration likes high gasoline prices

Unread postby Plantagenet » Fri 02 Mar 2012, 17:01:43

Sixstrings wrote:
Even if we get most of that Canadian oil, then the Chinese will just buy the Saudi oil it all washes out Plant.


1. The US already exports refined gasoline. Its one of the bright spots in our economy. Do you really want to stop all exports of refined gasoline?

2. You assume there will be plenty of oil available in the future for everyone who wants it. If you accept Peak Oil, you should know that quite soon global oil supplies will start shrinking every year. At that point, a pipeline carrying a million barrels of oil into the US every day will be much needed.

Sixstrings wrote: Those are temporary jobs, what do you do with the workers after it's built?


Refinery jobs aren't temporary jobs. The US has billions of dollars of infrastructure in the refineries of the Gulf Coast. These refineries need crude to process, or the refineries will close and all the folks working there will be fired. Keystone XL will bring them lots of oil to keep them employed and keep that infrastructure in use and provide gasoline to the US.
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Re: US Administration likes high gasoline prices

Unread postby Pops » Fri 02 Mar 2012, 17:52:44

<At that point, a pipeline carrying a million barrels of oil into the US every day will be much needed.>

Come on Plant,you gotta know better than that...
At a December Congressional hearing, Rep. Ed Markey (D-MA) asked the CEO of pipeline owner TransCanada whether he would agree to keep all refined products from oil sands in the United States. He declined.


It will be a few bucks cheaper maybe because it isn't shipped in but not much. And really, as you point out, the US is being outbid for product now.

Jobs:
The State Department’s “Executive Summary of the Final Environmental Impact Statement for the Proposed Keystone XL Project” predicts that the construction workforce would only “consist of approximately 5,000 t0 6,000 workers.”

More info here

Obama said to the republicans 'if you gotta have an answer now, it's no" I have no doubt it will be opened with some changes in the route.

The funny thing is, NO pipe to the gulf is what is keeping gas prices in the US down, there is no outlet so WTI at Cushing is the cheapest oil on the globe! As soon as the seaway pipe reverses this summer the price of gas is going up. When the southern half of the Keystone opens next year it will rise further.

It is amazing that on a site about peak oil, where everyone knows that gas is only going to get less and less affordable, partisanship still trumps transition. The party line that all we need to do is eliminate taxes and regulations and start a war or two and drill baby and we can go back to the good old days is just so ingrained, no amount of charts and factoids can kill it.

I really think partisanship rots the brain - no, it ossifies the brain. :-D
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Re: US Administration likes high gasoline prices

Unread postby Cog » Fri 02 Mar 2012, 18:00:23

Its not about returning to BAU. Its about reducing the logjam that Canada has in exporting its oil to its neighbor. Once the pipeline is built, Canada can vastly expand their oil sands operations and pump even more down here. We can run it down here on rail AND a pipeline.

And that is what the green-at-all-costs folks can't stand. They hope by blocking this pipeline that Canada will not be able to expand their oil sands operations.

In the downslope of global oil depletion, you will be wishing for all the oil that Canada can send down here and more.
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Re: US Administration likes high gasoline prices

Unread postby rangerone314 » Fri 02 Mar 2012, 18:14:52

Question, if the pipeline is built and the planned expansions to Port Arthur and Houston are also built, what prevents the oil from being refined into gasoline there and then exported overseas to customers willing to pay?

Second question, if the gasoline is exported, how does that help gas prices in the US?

Third question, why not build refineries onsite or close to the tar sands and then truck it to the US cities that will consume it?

Fourth question, Is it because that would actually lower gas prices in the US, or because China would be unhappy?
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Re: US Administration likes high gasoline prices

Unread postby Pops » Fri 02 Mar 2012, 18:21:46

Cog wrote:And that is what the green-at-all-costs folks can't stand. They hope by blocking this pipeline that Canada will not be able to expand their oil sands operations.

True. My knee jerks in the treehug direction but I can't see the logic behind driving to a protest against the pipe LOL.

Cog wrote:In the downslope of global oil depletion, you will be wishing for all the oil that Canada can send down here and more.

For enough money Americans will be able to get all the oil they want for a long time. That pipe will make not one bit of difference. Problem is we don't have enough money to outbid the Ch-indians now so what difference will it make to have the pipe moving oil through the midwest on the way to China?
- Granted a thousand refinery workers are better than a thousand MZBs puttin out of the Ozark hills.

My overall point is the original post was a sloppy commentary favoring Drill Baby over transition.
Agree with how O is trying to move ahead or don't but it the 'Obama 'likes' high gas prices and hates jobs bit is just so much partisan pap.
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