[gollum]

I also think there is a time to be violent in opposition to government, but that's not here yet.

Oh, is that so?

Maybe you should think about what form that riteous violence would take. As long as revolution is some Thomas Paine style fantasy of fifes and drums and tri-cornered hats, then you can shoot your mouth off. But if it comes, then it would very likely look like Iraq or Pakistan, with terrorist "patriot militia" bombing restaurants and untold civilians mutilated in asymmetrical warfare. House to house gunbattles and lots of collateral damage. Think about that before you completely turn your back to the political process. Think about that as you hyperbolize about how terrible TPTB is while you enjoy your internet and your hot and cold running water and cheap beer and pizza while untold millions elsewhere don't even have a pot to piss in. Then maybe you'll be a little more hesitant to support some hypothetical future civil war in which the cure is worse than the disease.

BTW, all this extremism, especially the finger-wagging in front of the camera about how America's got a date with destiny is getting awfully familiar.

Check out this Osama Bin Laden with a ten gallon hat and a dixie twang:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7IC4VAQfby4

How long before some rednecks like this are sawing off policeman's heads on camera ala Daniel Pearl?

If that day comes it will be the fault of politicians and bankers in suits, not a texan in a 10 gallon hat.

[mos6507]

If that day comes it will be the fault of politicians and bankers in suits, not a texan in a 10 gallon hat.

The bankers in suits won't be the ones detonating nail bombs at the funeral of police officers they previously killed, tearing into the officers' innocent mourners. The bailout and potential dollar collapse ain't got nothing on that sort of deliberate murder.

People should take accountability for the moral consequences of their own actions and stop playing the "devil made me do it" card.

This sort of digging in of heels and claims to moral justification are definitely the precursor of war, and I'm going to call anybody on it when they exhibit this "ends justify the means" rationalization.

You think things are bad now with 10% unemployment, wait until we have peak oil. Hanging the banksters won't put more oil in the ground, folks. It's better that we lower our expectations because this recession ain't nothin' yet, otherwise I'm damn certain we'll have warlordism rule the day.

This is, as far as I can see, the anger phase of grief writ large. It is nothing to be celebrated. There is nothing good that will come of this.

[TWilliam]

This sort of digging in of heels and claims to moral justification are definitely the precursor of war, and I'm going to call anybody on it when they exhibit this "ends justify the means" rationalization.

Then you should be calling loud and long on TPTB and their assorted agents, because that's their number one excuse for countless civil abuses, both at home and abroad...

[gollum]

If that day comes it will be the fault of politicians and bankers in suits, not a texan in a 10 gallon hat.

The bankers in suits won't be the ones detonating nail bombs at the funeral of police officers they previously killed, tearing into the officers' innocent mourners. The bailout and potential dollar collapse ain't got nothing on that sort of deliberate murder.

People should take accountability for the moral consequences of their own actions and stop playing the "devil made me do it" card.

This sort of digging in of heels and claims to moral justification are definitely the precursor of war, and I'm going to call anybody on it when they exhibit this "ends justify the means" rationalization.

You think things are bad now with 10% unemployment, wait until we have peak oil. Hanging the banksters won't put more oil in the ground, folks. It's better that we lower our expectations because this recession ain't nothin' yet, otherwise I'm damn certain we'll have warlordism rule the day.

This is, as far as I can see, the anger phase of grief writ large. It is nothing to be celebrated. There is nothing good that will come of this.

I think people should be asked to lower their expectations when the bankers stop being bailed out, our jobs stop going overseas, and the government decides to control our borders. I'm not endorsing the actions proposed by the militia in Indiana but I"ll sure be up front about the fact that I lost any regard for the chumps in DC and New York a long time ago. And I stand by my statement if this country descends the path to revolution it will be the fault of the political and business leadership who decided the good of the average citizen in this country no longer mattered, and not the fault of the citizens who finally decided they had had enough.

[highlander]

This is, as far as I can see, the anger phase of grief writ large. It is nothing to be celebrated. There is nothing good that will come of this.

I agree While real change is needed, the means to enact that change is always ugly.

btw from todays news update

An undercover agent played a role in the investigation that led to Monday's indictments. Grand jury testimony by a law enforcement officer referred to an "undercover FBI agent" who worked on the case. The FBI declined to comment, but infiltration is a common tactic for law-enforcement officials targeting domestic militia groups.

My concern is the feds are so intent on showing success stories, they take mostly harmless groups and incite them to criminal behavior, then arrest them. The past has shown the feds hatch the plot, supply the contacts and materials, then arrest a bunch of dopes who couldn't plot their way out of a paper bag.

[gollum]

I am OK with the feds infiltrating in order to collect intelligence on what may be criminal actions, but they should never be able to incite in any way illegal action. Often times these are no more than social clubs in camo, who would have never acted without pressure and encouragement from outsiders.

[mos6507]

I am OK with the feds infiltrating in order to collect intelligence on what may be criminal actions, but they should never be able to incite in any way illegal action. Often times these are no more than social clubs in camo, who would have never acted without pressure and encouragement from outsiders.

Why are you making things up? You don't know what happened. Stop speculating.

[mos6507]

I think people should be asked to lower their expectations when the bankers stop being bailed out, our jobs stop going overseas, and the government decides to control our borders.

Any expectation that individuals change? You know, maybe anything that might come in handy due to peak oil's ultimate damage to the economy? What exactly do you expect in a best-case-scenario for America??? I mean, you don't really expect BAU to survive peak oil. Even if we didn't have the credit crisis, people were going to have to downsize their aspirations. So if anything, the credit crisis has forced them into frugality so by undercutting their income stream. In fact this has provided plenty of tinfoil fodder that the credit crisis was in fact engineered to soften the blow of peak oil!

You see what I'm getting at here? You and a lot of other doomers are getting sucked into the Tea Party frenzy and not realizing that you are basically endorsing BAU. It's not BAU from the bankster end, but it's BAU from the fat consumer end, the aspects of BAU in which J6P feels the american dream is non-negotiable, and that government's role is to facilitate that.

That's why I'm mentioning the hot and cold running water and the stocked store shelves and the high speed internet. This is something that is in no way the norm in much of the world. But despite all of our comforts, we've now convinced ourselves that we're living in a dystopia worthy of violent revolution? What spoiled brats we are! Remember peak oil? We still live like the kings of old. This is not an excuse for corruption on the part of politicians, but it IS cause for doomers to hold onto some perspective on what constitutes grounds for a revolution. If there is a revolution needed, it should be via Transition Towns, not molotov cocktails.

I'm not endorsing the actions proposed by the militia in Indiana

Yes you are, under the banner of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend". It's the same psychological phenomenon that caused the Palestinians to jump for joy when the twin towers came down.

if this country descends the path to revolution it will be the fault of the political and business leadership

Let's see how you feel about that when the body count starts racking up. Let's see how you feel when revolution begins to hit close to home. Maybe you or someone close to you gets torn up by a suicide bomber. How far can you take the extremist position that the ends justifies the means? I'm sorry, but at the point anyone starts cheering on terrorism they lose any claim to moral superiority.

And I bet you also decry the civilian loss of life in Afghanistan and Iraq, right? But blood on the streets of the US is okay?

the citizens who finally decided they had had enough.

So what are we going to have next? Emperor Sarah Palin with vice president Alex Jones?

[mos6507]

Then you should be calling loud and long on TPTB and their assorted agents, because that's their number one excuse for countless civil abuses, both at home and abroad...

You mean I should be play-acting Dirty Harry while addressing "New World Order" (as if they are a person) on Youtube?

People have lost any sense of how to conduct themselves in a civil manner. It's 24/7 paranoid temper tantrums.

Sorry, I'm not grabbing an assault rifle and going postal while filled with a false sense of patriotism and self-riteousness. I'm grafting apple trees, thank you very much.

[gnm]

I'm grafting apple trees, thank you very much.

I wouldn't mind some tips on apple tree grafting...

-G

[gollum]

I think people should be asked to lower their expectations when the bankers stop being bailed out, our jobs stop going overseas, and the government decides to control our borders.

Any expectation that individuals change? You know, maybe anything that might come in handy due to peak oil's ultimate damage to the economy? What exactly do you expect in a best-case-scenario for America??? I mean, you don't really expect BAU to survive peak oil. Even if we didn't have the credit crisis, people were going to have to downsize their aspirations. So if anything, the credit crisis has forced them into frugality so by undercutting their income stream. In fact this has provided plenty of tinfoil fodder that the credit crisis was in fact engineered to soften the blow of peak oil!

You see what I'm getting at here? You and a lot of other doomers are getting sucked into the Tea Party frenzy and not realizing that you are basically endorsing BAU. It's not BAU from the bankster end, but it's BAU from the fat consumer end, the aspects of BAU in which J6P feels the american dream is non-negotiable, and that government's role is to facilitate that.

That's why I'm mentioning the hot and cold running water and the stocked store shelves and the high speed internet. This is something that is in no way the norm in much of the world. But despite all of our comforts, we've now convinced ourselves that we're living in a dystopia worthy of violent revolution? What spoiled brats we are! Remember peak oil? We still live like the kings of old. This is not an excuse for corruption on the part of politicians, but it IS cause for doomers to hold onto some perspective on what constitutes grounds for a revolution. If there is a revolution needed, it should be via Transition Towns, not molotov cocktails.

I'm not endorsing the actions proposed by the militia in Indiana

Yes you are, under the banner of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend". It's the same psychological phenomenon that caused the Palestinians to jump for joy when the twin towers came down.

if this country descends the path to revolution it will be the fault of the political and business leadership

Let's see how you feel about that when the body count starts racking up. Let's see how you feel when revolution begins to hit close to home. Maybe you or someone close to you gets torn up by a suicide bomber. How far can you take the extremist position that the ends justifies the means? I'm sorry, but at the point anyone starts cheering on terrorism they lose any claim to moral superiority.

And I bet you also decry the civilian loss of life in Afghanistan and Iraq, right? But blood on the streets of the US is okay?

the citizens who finally decided they had had enough.

So what are we going to have next? Emperor Sarah Palin with vice president Alex Jones?

Don't assume so much MOS, I'm not in particular impressed with the republicans, the tea party, or Sara Palin...In fact in a lot of ways I support the president. However to me any part of the system now has come to represent stagnation, repression, and decay. It's not a question of a bunch of nuts bringing the system down it's coming down no matter what.

[gollum]

"What exactly do you expect in a best-case-scenario for America??"

Soviet style semi peaceful breakup is the best I hope for.

[the48thronin]

"What exactly do you expect in a best-case-scenario for America??"

Soviet style semi peaceful breakup is the best I hope for.

me 2

[Kristen]

I don't see any justification for violent protest, when nonviolent acts of disobeyment has been proven reliable. Most of these people are in the anger stage of grievance.

[Ludi]

While real change is needed, the means to enact that change is always ugly.

Why? Nobody is stopping you from enacting change. You could stop supporting the status quo today and not a soul would stop you. So why does that have to be "ugly"?

[Ludi]

That's why I'm mentioning the hot and cold running water and the stocked store shelves and the high speed internet. This is something that is in no way the norm in much of the world. But despite all of our comforts, we've now convinced ourselves that we're living in a dystopia worthy of violent revolution? What spoiled brats we are! Remember peak oil? We still live like the kings of old. This is not an excuse for corruption on the part of politicians, but it IS cause for doomers to hold onto some perspective on what constitutes grounds for a revolution. If there is a revolution needed, it should be via Transition Towns, not molotov cocktails.

100% agree. Nobody is stopping us from changing our way of life.

But actually doing something different is harder than bitching and moaning.

[TWilliam]

100% agree. Nobody is stopping us from changing our way of life.

But actually doing something different is harder than bitching and moaning.

Hmmm... yeaaa... the families of the South Central Farm did 'something different' for more than thirteen years. Where did it get them?



"Nobody is stopping us"? Better look again...

[Ludi]

Who has stopped you from changing the way you live, TWilliam?

[careinke]

Who has stopped you from changing the way you live, TWilliam?

For me it was the Pierce County Council and my nimby neighbors.

[careinke]

Oh and in other instances the state and federal government.