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THE Fascist / Fascism Thread pt 3

For discussions of events and conditions not necessarily related to Peak Oil.

Re: You Might Be A Fascist If…

Unread postby Sixstrings » Sat 30 May 2015, 22:56:31

PrestonSturges wrote:Fascism.............Communism
Religious...........Atheist
Spiritual............Crackpot science
Privatization.......Nationalization
Utopian past.......Utopian future
Racist ...............Racism is a bug, not a feature


Well put!

But actually the USSR had very good scientists. Far leftists (communists) stifle freedom of thought and overall cultural innovation, which would allow for the most tech innovation, but otherwise -- USSR and east europe did in fact have good science on the fundamentals, excellent education, to this day east euros are actually well educated compared to other developing world places, that did not have a communist legacy.

As far as privatizaiton vs. nationalization ... actually, fascism is all about the State VERY MUCH WORKING DIRECTLY with business. It's not laissez faire free market, at all. What Hitler did, and what Putin does now, is a HYBRID of command economy working with private business, but more picking the winners rather than having a total free market.

Socialism is nationalized business, fascism is part command economy and picking the winners in business -- and often that works out, after all you could just give the whole space program to SpaceX and they'd probably do great -- and then true privitization is laissez faire free market competition, with government awarding bids and otherwise laissez faire "hands off."
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Re: You Might Be A Fascist If…

Unread postby PrestonSturges » Sun 31 May 2015, 00:26:48

For the crackpot science I was thinking of Lysenkoism which was tied to the idea that the state could direct anything, even genetics. Also there never was really an economic basis for communism, and the social sciences were a wreck.

The Nazis brought in business cronies to run the schools (sound familiar?) and wrecked them.
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Re: You Might Be A Fascist If…

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Sun 31 May 2015, 07:24:04

I've had time to think on this thread. The arguments resulted from somebody posting an article written by some other ignorant individual, both smugly certain that they understood the meaning of Fascism, and both displaying in their rhetoric that they themselves were Fascists.

Heinlein was absolutely correct:
Political tags - such as royalist, communist, democrat, populist, fascist, liberal, conservative, and so forth - are never basic criteria. The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire.
Robert A. Heinlein


That is in fact the fundamental difference between Democrats and Republicans. Democrats want to "fix" things, and are willing to do anything, say anything, and to take away privilege and freedom in the furtherance of such goals. They are especially fond of the re-distribution of income to further such political activity. Republicans are those who want to be free to pursue their lives and resent being coerced to do things they do not want to do. They endlessly promote business and trade in the belief that lots of money moving around makes more people happier.

I think America became the wealthiest country in the world because we have two such opposed philosophies in play constantly. I also remember a time when the Republicans were the progressives and the Democrats were the extreme right wingnuts. Don't doubt this - I lived in Metairie outside of Earl Long's New Orleans, and burning crosses were seen frequently - and my Father kept two shameful secrets: he was a Republican, and he was one quarter Native American.

I think both are incomplete philosophies, which happens because the Democratic and Republican parties have to cater to their "base", which is another way of saying the lowest common denominator, those principles that all can agree on.

Those of you who think that there needs to be more in life than a philosophy that can be stated in a few short paragraphs should look up the definition of "Classical Liberalism". This is a short 7-minute introduction to the principles:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iU-8Uz_nMaQ

Now I need to shatter some prejudices around here.

Ennui2, I did not know who the Koch Brothers were until you bashed them in another thread. "Hobby Lobby" is something I haven't looked up yet, so that insult (I have no doubt it's an insult of some sort) was a clean miss.

Lore, take it from a survivor of the Cold War: "Commie" has two m's in it. "Comie" suggests some kind of sexual pervert. :mrgreen:
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Re: You Might Be A Fascist If…

Unread postby Lore » Sun 31 May 2015, 08:17:56

Oh, now you're some kind of spelling Nazi! :-D
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Re: You Might Be A Fascist If…

Unread postby SeaGypsy » Sun 31 May 2015, 08:51:40

Since the topic of fascism invariably draws both sides under Godwin's Law right?
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Re: You Might Be A Fascist If…

Unread postby ennui2 » Sun 31 May 2015, 09:15:48

KaiserJeep wrote:The only hope for the species is to escape into space.


I think you're going to be disappointed there, KJ. At 63, you won't be here to see it, but future generations are going to be fighting over what remains of the earth's carrying capacity as technology slides back to the dark-ages.
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Re: You Might Be A Fascist If…

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Sun 31 May 2015, 09:20:36

Good one, SG. I had to look up "Godwin's Law". Except of course this thread started with "Fascist" in the title.

My Father-In-Law, who drove a truck ashore in the Invasion of Normandy (3rd day on Omaha Beach) hated Germans his entire life. He had a reason - they kept trying to kill him everywhere he drove his truck in France and later Germany. I don't think he ever hated a "Fascist", life was simpler then.

My own Father, who joined the Merchant Marine at age 15, then transferred to the US Coast Guard at age 17, hated Japanese his whole life - he crossed the Pacific several times, while Japanese submarines tried to kill him and did kill all his wartime buddies. Again though, he hated a group not an idea.

Is it progress that now we hate abstracts such as Fascism, Communism, Socialism, and Fundamentalism, and Islamism?

Yeah, there's a lot of bad 'isms' floatin' around this world, but one of the worst is commercialism. Make a buck, make a buck. Even in Brooklyn it's the same - don't care what Christmas stands for, just make a buck, make a buck.
- Alfred, janitor at Macy's, in the 1934 Miracle on 34th Street
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Re: You Might Be A Fascist If…

Unread postby ennui2 » Sun 31 May 2015, 09:26:13

KaiserJeep wrote:Ennui2, I did not know who the Koch Brothers were until you bashed them in another thread. "Hobby Lobby" is something I haven't looked up yet, so that insult (I have no doubt it's an insult of some sort) was a clean miss.


Then don't dip your toe into political debate unless you've done your homework.

Study Citizen's United while you're at it.

Also study the revolving door in and out of big oil and the military industrial complex with politicians like Cheney that contributed to us getting into too many costly foreign entanglements like Iraq, something purely a function of GOP interventionism. Remember McCain's "Bomb, bomb, bomb Iran?"

Oh, I forgot, your big fear is the mullahs getting the bomb. So I suppose you'd like us to burn a lot of our remaining fossil fuel reserves fighting in the middle east?

Your partisan vigor is just not compatible with your peak-oilism. It's an artifact of who you were before you took the (partial) red-pill.
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Re: You Might Be A Fascist If…

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Sun 31 May 2015, 09:33:46

ennui2 wrote:
KaiserJeep wrote:The only hope for the species is to escape into space.


I think you're going to be disappointed there, KJ. At 63, you won't be here to see it, but future generations are going to be fighting over what remains of the earth's carrying capacity as technology slides back to the dark-ages.


Knowledge is never lost. Even during the Dark Ages in Europe, as cannibalism thinned the population back to sustainable levels, there were patient monks quietly copying manuscripts so that the contents were preserved. Other monks were practicing astronomy, botany, mathematics and other sciences, while making wines and brandies.

Nowadays, we have machines with bit-perfect digital memories, and thirty generations from today, some student of the 21st Century will be reading this thread. Then if he's interested, he will search out our tax returns to understand our position in life - even though we use screen names. I think he'll be living in a space habitat when that happens, many here disagree.

Not that that matters, because I am right and they are wrong.

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Re: You Might Be A Fascist If…

Unread postby Lore » Sun 31 May 2015, 09:34:27

SeaGypsy wrote:Since the topic of fascism invariably draws both sides under Godwin's Law right?


I believe KJ has a special relationship with evoking Goodwin's Law

Spelling Nazi
a person who freaks out when a little spelling mistake has occured or has be a constant little asshole about it.
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.p ... lling+nazi
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Re: You Might Be A Fascist If…

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Sun 31 May 2015, 09:43:32

All this preoccupation with Nazi's reminds me of a famous one:
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The Soup Nazi from Seinfeld
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Re: You Might Be A Fascist If…

Unread postby Cid_Yama » Sun 31 May 2015, 09:45:22

The US is the largest debtor nation in the world. It didn't matter as long as everyone needed dollars. Now that the Petrodollar is dead, and the US dollar on it's way out as the world's reserve currency, all those dollars are about to start flooding back home like bounced checks.

Besides the petrodollar, we also had the world's largest military and took what our corporations wanted. We also created the IMF to coerce other nations. The US is the largest Racketeer nation in the world. This is why we have access to a far larger % of the world's resources.

Excerpt from a speech delivered in 1933 by General Smedley Butler, USMC

War is just a racket. There are only two things we should fight for. One is the defense of our homes and the other is the Bill of Rights. War for any other reason is simply a racket.

It may seem odd for me, a military man to adopt such a comparison. Truthfulness compels me to. I spent thirty-three years and four months in active military service as a member of this country's most agile military force, the Marine Corps. I served in all commissioned ranks from Second Lieutenant to Major-General. And during that period, I spent most of my time being a high class muscle-man for Big Business, for Wall Street and for the Bankers.

I suspected I was just part of a racket at the time. Now I am sure of it. Like all the members of the military profession, I never had a thought of my own until I left the service. My mental faculties remained in suspended animation while I obeyed the orders of higher-ups. This is typical with everyone in the military service.

I helped make Mexico safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefits of Wall Street. I helped purify Nicaragua for the international banking house of Brown Brothers in 1909-1912. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for American sugar interests in 1916. In China I helped to see to it that Standard Oil went its way unmolested.

During those years, I had, as the boys in the back room would say, a swell racket. Looking back on it, I feel that I could have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents.

link


It's a sordid tale of fascist intrigue by some of America's most famous corporate and political families (including members of FDR's own party) which was deliberately covered up by both the only Congressional Committee to investigate the plot, and also by the leading media outlets of the day including the New York Times. And the truly scary part is that the plot might very well have succeeded if not for the bravery of a single, progressive leader: Marine General, Smedley Butler.

These plotters represented some of America's richest and most famous names of the time:
* Irenee Du Pont - Right-wing chemical industrialist and founder of the American Liberty League, the organization assigned to execute the plot.
* Grayson Murphy - Director of Goodyear, Bethlehem Steel and a group of J.P. Morgan banks.
* William Doyle - Former state commander of the American Legion and a central plotter of the coup.
* John Davis - Former Democratic presidential candidate and a senior attorney for J.P. Morgan.
* Al Smith - Roosevelt's bitter political foe from New York. Smith was a former governor of New York and a co-director of the American Liberty League.
* John J. Raskob - A high-ranking Du Pont officer and a former chairman of the Democratic Party. In later decades, Raskob would become a "Knight of Malta," a Roman Catholic Religious Order with a high percentage of CIA spies, including CIA Directors William Casey, William Colby and John McCone.
* Robert Clark - One of Wall Street's richest bankers and stockbrokers.
* Gerald MacGuire - Bond salesman for Clark, and a former commander of the Connecticut American Legion. MacGuire was the key recruiter to General Butler.

They chose MacGuire as the point man to approach Butler with their proposal. The plot would be funded by Dupont and Morgan money funneled through an organization they had recently created to oppose Roosevelt, the American Liberty League. (The League was funded by donations from US Steel, General Motors, Chase Manhattan Bank, Standard Oil, Goodyear and the Dupont family, among others. Not surprisingly, the League would later actively oppose almost every major piece of New Deal legislation, including, but not limited too Social Security).

Butler was supposed to be the "famous name" who would recruit an army of out of work war veterans to march on Washington. It was thought that his popularity with the troops would make it easy for him to rally them to the cause of supplanting Roosevelt as the effective head of government. As proposed,

They wanted General Butler to deliver an ultimatum to Roosevelt. Roosevelt would pretend to become sick and incapacitated from his polio, and allow a newly created cabinet officer, a "Secretary of General Affairs," to run things in his stead. The secretary, of course, would be carrying out the orders of Wall Street. If Roosevelt refused, then General Butler would force him out with an army of 500,000 war veterans from the American Legion. But MacGuire assured Butler the cover story would work:

"You know the American people will swallow that. We have got the newspapers. We will start a campaign that the President's health is failing. Everyone can tell that by looking at him, and the dumb American people will fall for it in a second..."

The businessmen also promised that money was no object: Clark told Butler that he would spend half his $60 million fortune to save the other half.

And what type of government would replace Roosevelt's New Deal? MacGuire was perfectly candid to Paul French, a reporter friend of General Butler's:

"We need a fascist government in this country... to save the nation from the communists who want to tear it down and wreck all that we have built in America. The only men who have the patriotism to do it are the soldiers, and Smedley Butler is the ideal leader. He could organize a million men overnight."

Indeed, it turns out that MacGuire travelled to Italy to study Mussolini's fascist state, and came away mightily impressed. He wrote glowing reports back to his boss, Robert Clark, suggesting that they implement the same thing.

The plot collapsed when Butler went public in late 1934 and exposed the conspiracy.

A letter, dated 1936, from William Dodd, the U.S. Ambassador to Germany, to President Roosevelt makes clear:

"A clique of U.S. industrialists is hell-bent to bring a fascist state to supplant our democratic government and is working closely with the fascist regime in Germany and Italy. I have had plenty of opportunity in my post in Berlin to witness how close some of our American ruling families are to the Nazi regime.... A prominent executive of one of the largest corporations, told me point blank that he would be ready to take definite action to bring fascism into America if President Roosevelt continued his progressive policies. Certain American industrialists had a great deal to do with bringing fascist regimes into being in both Germany and Italy. They extended aid to help Fascism occupy the seat of power, and they are helping to keep it there. Propagandists for fascist groups try to dismiss the fascist scare. We should be aware of the symptoms. When industrialists ignore laws designed for social and economic progress they will seek recourse to a fascist state when the institutions of our government compel them to comply with the provisions."

link

The business plotters orchestrated Hitler's rise to power. National City Bank funded Hitler's rise to power, and ran Germany's business interests in the US for them during the war.

Standard Oil shipped oil to Hitler through Spain. Remington Arms provided them with ammunition. Goodyear provided rubber. Dupont provided Farben with chemicals and ran Farben's US holdings. Bethlehem Steel shipped Krupp coke for making steel. Throughout most of WWII, they were traitors to their country.

These are the fascists in America.
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Re: You Might Be A Fascist If…

Unread postby Lore » Sun 31 May 2015, 09:54:17

Holy smokes Cid, then we were facists before the term was even invented! I wonder if they had angry old white men back then too?
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Re: You Might Be A Fascist If…

Unread postby Cid_Yama » Sun 31 May 2015, 10:41:22

Just think what the world would be like had they succeeded. They would surely have entered the war on the side of Germany and Italy.
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Re: You Might Be A Fascist If…

Unread postby onlooker » Sun 31 May 2015, 11:19:32

Standard Oil shipped oil to Hitler through Spain. Remington Arms provided them with ammunition. Goodyear provided rubber. Dupont provided Farben with chemicals and ran Farben's US holdings. Bethlehem Steel shipped Krupp coke for making steel. Throughout most of WWII, they were traitors to their country.
These are the fascists in America.

Cid great posting of the double dealings and greed that made WWII possible. Their is though one name that we should all be aware of that is that George Scherf, Sr. (1895-1972) aka. Prescott Bush father of George H. W. Bush aka. George Scherf, Jr, helped fund the Nazi war effort via companies he was intertwined with. They do say than Bankers profit from wars as they take both sides.
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Re: You Might Be A Fascist If…

Unread postby ennui2 » Sun 31 May 2015, 11:56:06

KaiserJeep wrote:Knowledge is never lost.


I don't know how to respond to this other than to just say flat out no, you're wrong. Knowledge is lost. What good was it that monks were holding onto knowledge when that knowledge wasn't put to use when it was needed most?

KaiserJeep wrote:cannibalism thinned the population


WTF? Most of the deaths during the middle-ages were due to plagues, although there were also famines. Plagues that were exacerbated by a lack of knowledge about germ-theory and bad personal hygiene.

KaiserJeep wrote:Nowadays, we have machines with bit-perfect digital memories, and thirty generations from today, some student of the 21st Century will be reading this thread.


Funny that you're such a technophile since so many of your GOP buddies don't even believe in evolution and think the earth is only 6,000 years old, let along global warming?

You place all your faith on a singularity techno future on the GOP???
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Re: You Might Be A Fascist If…

Unread postby Lore » Sun 31 May 2015, 12:33:30

Technological knowledge becomes pretty useless when you no longer have the tools or energy to wield it. What good is an auto if you no longer have the fuel to run it, or the means to build one? Then ask yourself, why even study to build another? Most knowledge will be lost because it will no longer be relevant.
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Re: You Might Be A Fascist If…

Unread postby Lore » Sun 31 May 2015, 13:54:45

pstarr wrote:Your phony doom and your sci-fi dreams are quite convenient, allow you to motor around in your fancy cars burning gas all the while you can yap that we are all doomed . . . except for the brilliant engineers like yourself who will go off world. That is facism.


You mean he is not going to take us with him when the great rapture arrives? :(
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