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THE Ethanol Thread pt 3

Discussions of conventional and alternative energy production technologies.

Re: Why ethanol will never work out

Unread postby TreebeardsUncle » Tue 18 Nov 2008, 01:53:04

Obama represents Illinois.

So, is the idea that neither corn-based ethanolc or cellulitic ethanol will work in the sense of replacing oil?

How much of the US gasoline supply will they replace? 1/4? 1/10? 1%?

What about other bio-fuels.

My hope is that not only automobiles will have to be given up en masse but that modern cancerous auto-exclusive suburbia will disintegrate as well.

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Re: "Our gas contains NO alcohol"

Unread postby Nookster » Sat 06 Dec 2008, 21:00:34

smallpoxgirl wrote:I would guess that the issue is that people know ethanol contains less heat value and thus gets poorer mileage.


It doesn't always follow though. Today, oil companies use less of other octane boosters when they add alcohol because of the octane boost it provides.

But years ago, when people first started adding ethanol to the mix; it often made for notable octane improvements, and if you were driving a high performance vehicle that meant you could crank the advance up a few more degrees which for some vehicles made for notable increases in power and fuel mileage.

Years ago, before federal regulators got involved and when there used to be a lot of independent gas stations, there was one that sold a 20% alcohol mix, and an old beast I used to drive at the time loved it, no ping, more power, and much better mileage, but few cars today have 11.5:1 compression, most are in the 8-10:1 range and use exhaust gas to dilute the fuel-air mixture.

You're right that in absolute terms alcohol has lower BTU/gallon, but the octane boost can allow higher compression ratios and thus better thermodynamic efficiency in those vehicles.
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Get ready for increased ethanol blends

Unread postby frankthetank » Mon 09 Feb 2009, 00:09:53

Sure looks like they want to increase ethanol blends. Not sure what they'll jump too, but i'm sure even crappier gas mileage is headed our way.

Feb. 6 (Bloomberg) -- The Agriculture Department is in discussions with the Environmental Protection Agency about raising the amount of ethanol blended into the U.S. gasoline supply, U.S. Agriculture Secretary Tom Vilsack said.

About 21 percent of the U.S. capacity for ethanol production is idle, according to ethanol-maker Archer Daniels Midland Co. VeraSun Energy Corp., the second-largest U.S. ethanol maker, filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection in October as an industrywide expansion of production facilities outpaced demand.


http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid= ... refer=home
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Re: Get ready for increased ethanol blends

Unread postby Tanada » Mon 09 Feb 2009, 08:03:31

frankthetank wrote:Sure looks like they want to increase ethanol blends. Not sure what they'll jump too, but i'm sure even crappier gas mileage is headed our way.

Feb. 6 (Bloomberg) -- The Agriculture Department is in discussions with the Environmental Protection Agency about raising the amount of ethanol blended into the U.S. gasoline supply, U.S. Agriculture Secretary Tom Vilsack said.

About 21 percent of the U.S. capacity for ethanol production is idle, according to ethanol-maker Archer Daniels Midland Co. VeraSun Energy Corp., the second-largest U.S. ethanol maker, filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection in October as an industrywide expansion of production facilities outpaced demand.


http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid= ... refer=home


Wait a dang minute, what happened to their being a large shortage of Ethanol needed to get us up to the mandated 10% in half the markets in the country? They can't have it both ways even if they want too. Last i heard their was a shortage of Ethanol storage capacity that was leading to the inefficient distribution of blending components.
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Re: Get ready for increased ethanol blends

Unread postby oxj » Mon 09 Feb 2009, 09:19:21

My friend was only going to plant 30 of his 210 acres in corn this year because of the decreased price of corn.

With the demand destruction for liquid fuels due to the economic downturn, it may be seen that this is the optimal time to increase ethanol production, because increased ethanol production at this time would not cause a liquid fuel price spike.

I'm sure he'll hear of this plan and may change his planting strategies accordingly.
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Re: Get ready for increased ethanol blends

Unread postby frankthetank » Tue 10 Feb 2009, 23:42:59

More on the topic:

The U.S. Department of Agriculture and the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency are now discussing raising the amount of ethanol blended into the U.S. gasoline supply, according to U.S. Agriculture Secretary Tom Vilsack said.

And with the ethanol industry in the doldrums, Keith Bolin, president of the American Corn Growers Association (ACGA), has commended Vilsack for his support for the use of higher ethanol blends.

With about 21 percent of the U.S. capacity for ethanol production idle, the ethanol industry is struggling, which is impacting ethanol states like Nebraska.

VeraSun Energy Corp., the second-largest U.S. ethanol maker and who operates the ethanol plants in Ord, Central City and Albion, has filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection, which has idled production at those plants.

But while the ethanol industry is struggling, innovative companies, such as Bosselman Inc., recently opened its 41st Pump & Pantry, located at Allen Drive and 13th Street in Grand Island.

The new gas pump at Pump & Pantry will now offer drivers a choice of five different blends: regular unleaded, E10, E20, E30 and E85. While all vehicles are authorized to use unleaded and E10, only cars that are designated flex-fuel vehicles can fill up with the higher ethanol blends of E20, E30, and E85.

In a letter to Vilsack, Bolin commended him for his recently announced initiative with the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) regarding a “modest increase in the ethanol blend rate.”

“In just 15 short but hectic days after swearing your oath of office, you have weighed in on this critical issue,” Bolin said.

He told Vilsack that given the numerous benefits of increasing the ethanol blend rate, it is a very wise and timely decision by EPA to do so.

“Those benefits include expanding the nation’s fuel supply, reducing carbon emissions, helping to stabilize the financial positions of struggling ethanol refiners — many owned by farmers and protecting the recent gains made in revitalizing the farm community,” Bolin wrote.

He said a decision to increase the ethanol blend rate is a “clear example of how innovative and committed the Obama administration is to continuing the march towards energy independence, stabilizing our agricultural and rural communities and, most importantly, protecting the interests of American consumers.”

But with the ethanol industry looking to expand its sales with higher ethanol blends, the American Coalition for Ethanol (ACE), is seeking answers why Underwriters Laboratories has arbitrarily changed its position on the ability of standard gasoline pumps to handle blends of ethanol up to 15 percent.


Sounds like a bunch of BS to me... Can't wait for my gas mileage to drop some more. I'll have to put an aero kit on just to make up the difference or over inflate my tires. This is just going to be shoved down our throats like everything else.

http://www.theindependent.com/articles/ ... 506680.txt
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Re: Get ready for increased ethanol blends

Unread postby Blacksmith » Wed 11 Feb 2009, 04:27:10

I think all the industries problems and indeed ours could be solved by offering 100 percent ethanol blends. I certainly would be there filling up my jerry cans, my canning jars, my .......................
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Re: Get ready for increased ethanol blends

Unread postby jdmartin » Wed 11 Feb 2009, 14:04:45

frankthetank wrote:Sounds like a bunch of BS to me... Can't wait for my gas mileage to drop some more. I'll have to put an aero kit on just to make up the difference or over inflate my tires. This is just going to be shoved down our throats like everything else.

http://www.theindependent.com/articles/ ... 506680.txt


No doubt frank...ethanol is a bunch of bullshit. They conveniently ignore the massive energy inputs into the soil to grow all this ethanol when figuring out how well it works. And who better to tell us that we should be using more ethanol than the American Corn Growers Association and ex-Iowa governor Vilsack? :roll:
After fueling up their cars, Twyman says they bowed their heads and asked God for cheaper gas.There was no immediate answer, but he says other motorists joined in and the service station owner didn't run them off.
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Re: THE Ethanol Thread (merged)

Unread postby mwellermd » Tue 26 May 2009, 09:33:44

Another scathing article on the merits of ethanol...

"The Great Ethanol Scam
Not only is ethanol proving to be a dud as a fuel substitute but there is increasing evidence that it is destroying engines in large numbers"


http://www.businessweek.com/lifestyle/c ... 058678.htm
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Texas ethanol plant a white elephant

Unread postby da23 » Wed 24 Jun 2009, 03:59:52

With President Bush extolling the virtues of biofuels as a cure for what he called America's "addiction to foreign oil", I'd been invited to the town by Panda Energy.

The company, which has a series of successful plants across the United States, wanted to use the town's plentiful supply of manure - courtesy of the hundreds of thousands of cattle that use its massive feed yards - to power the process of extracting ethanol from corn.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/8115947.stm
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Re: Texas ethanol plant a white elephant

Unread postby Tanada » Wed 24 Jun 2009, 07:19:00

da23 wrote:
With President Bush extolling the virtues of biofuels as a cure for what he called America's "addiction to foreign oil", I'd been invited to the town by Panda Energy.

The company, which has a series of successful plants across the United States, wanted to use the town's plentiful supply of manure - courtesy of the hundreds of thousands of cattle that use its massive feed yards - to power the process of extracting ethanol from corn.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/8115947.stm


Brilliant! So now not only will we convert food into fuel, we will convert the fertilizer that helps grow the food into fuel as well!
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Re: Texas ethanol plant a white elephant

Unread postby Roy » Wed 24 Jun 2009, 12:52:07

Brilliant! So now not only will we convert food into fuel, we will convert the fertilizer that helps grow the food into fuel as well!


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Ethanol cap could be changed today

Unread postby frankthetank » Tue 01 Dec 2009, 12:59:32

Been following this with some interest.

The federal government is expected to announce today whether it will raise the cap on ethanol allowed in a gallon of gasoline.

The announcement on whether to move from 10 percent to 15 percent could have a major impact on the once-booming — but now stagnant — ethanol industry.

The ethanol industry produces about 12 billion gallons of ethanol today. That's enough for 80 percent of all gasoline in the U.S., a blend called E10.

By moving to a 15 percent blend, or E15, ethanol production could grow to 16 billion to 17 billion gallons, said Greg Krissek, director of government affairs for ICM, the Colwich-based designer, builder and manager of ethanol plants.

If mothballed ethanol plants are reactivated and ones under construction come on line, the industry would need to add enough capacity for 4 billion to 5 billion more gallons, Krissek said.

The industry says raising the limit would create 140,000 jobs, including some at ICM. The company has cut its work force by more than half in the past 18 months.

It would also help the government reach its own goals. In 2007, Congress mandated increasing levels of ethanol use to 36 billion gallons by 2022.

By staying at E10, that goal becomes virtually impossible, Krissek said.


The request to increase the blend has met resistance from some engine makers who say more ethanol may hurt their products, and from people philosophically opposed to subsidizing industries.

In pushing for the EPA to approve the request, U.S. Agriculture Secretary Tom Vilsack has said higher blends are safe for engines.


I'd put money on the limit being raised today. Say hello to worse gas mileage for the same price :) Got to love how everything is in gallons in the ethanol world.

http://www.kansas.com/business/energy/s ... 78080.html

edit: if my math is correct, 16 billion gallons a year equals about 1 million barrels/day...
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Re: Ethanol cap could be changed today

Unread postby emersonbiggins » Tue 01 Dec 2009, 13:15:06

I think word finally got around about the ethanol racket once lawn mowers and some cars started going kaput. I've been seeing these signs all over Oklahoma for the last year or so.

Image

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Any measure to force a higher percentage of ethanol through the system, couched in the guise of "weaning ourselves off of foreign oil," will finally meet some resistance from J6P.
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Re: Ethanol cap could be changed today

Unread postby eastbay » Tue 01 Dec 2009, 13:33:34

I wish we could see those signs in Oregon, but the greener than thou liberals won't allow it. Crop burning is mandatory around here. It's part of their sustainable starvation program aka: Permanent Hunger for Permanent SUV's.
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Re: Ethanol cap could be changed today

Unread postby Leanan » Tue 01 Dec 2009, 13:38:56

frankthetank wrote: I'd put money on the limit being raised today.


You lose. :)

EPA delays ethanol decision until mid-2010

A decision on whether to increase the ethanol blend cap to 15 percent for a gallon of gasoline has been delayed until mid-2010, the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency said today.

EPA said more testing was needed before it could make ruling.
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Re: Ethanol cap could be changed today

Unread postby eastbay » Tue 01 Dec 2009, 13:39:43

... oh my, a glimmer of common sense!! :)
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Re: Ethanol cap could be changed today

Unread postby frankthetank » Tue 01 Dec 2009, 15:32:22

Interesting.. i would have thought it would have passed.

Our government loves bailing out losers.

I've read they are using a lot more sorghum to make ethanol and want to use barely too.. Got to wonder when we'll start burning bananas in our cars!

Here in La Crosse, back in August, Kwik Trip (huge chain), started selling ethanol free gas... i need to get some for my chainsaw, boat motor...
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Re: Ethanol cap could be changed today

Unread postby dukey » Tue 01 Dec 2009, 18:08:32

great way to kill the poor
burn all their food in pointless SUVs
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Re: THE Ethanol Thread pt 2 (merged)

Unread postby Keith_McClary » Mon 01 Mar 2010, 01:47:11

An Ethanol Corporation says:

Manipulation
Increased use of grain for bioethanol in the U.S. and Europe is indirectly causing farmers to convert rainforests and other native ecosystems over the world to expand cropland which indirectly is increasing GHG emissions.

Evidence
Despite increased demand, the land dedicated to grain production globally has actually fallen steadily since the early 1980s. From 2008 to 2009 alone, the global cropland area for grain dropped nearly 9 million acres as a result of significant increases in productivity per unit of land. In the US, corn yield per acre has increased by 38% just in the last 20 years (*).

90% of the incremental agricultural production in the world for the oncoming years will come from existing crop land through yield increases and agricultural infrastructure
investments (***).

US corn exports have actually increased despite record bioethanol production, achieving record levels in the 2007/08 marketing year and remaining well above the 10-year average the following year. Corn export levels for 2009/10 are forecasted to be among the highest on record. Additionally, record amount of distillers grains from bioethanol was exported in 2009 to livestock producers around the globe (***).
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