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THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 9

Discussions of conventional and alternative energy production technologies.

Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 9

Unread postby eclipse » Wed 08 May 2019, 01:41:35

Hi Plant,
I notice you still assume people will be buying cars as if that is an indefinite matter? Have you read the stuff on automation and how that could impact the car industry? Robot-EV's are expensive to buy, but could be REALLY cheap to hire if we share that capital cost amongst the community. They could be so cheap to hire that many people simply stop buying cars. And many companies will have a variety of vehicles you can hire.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 9

Unread postby kublikhan » Wed 08 May 2019, 04:48:13

KaiserJeep wrote:I repeat, there is only ONE real problem with EVs. The car buying public is Fat/Dumb/Happy with IICE vehicles. If they could just get over that and start buying EVs, the other problems would go away quickly.
EVs come up short against ICE vehicles in a number of categories: price, range, refueling options, marketing budgets, dealer satisfaction, etc. It is short sighted to ignore all these issues and blame the consumer for being dumb because they did not purchase an EV.

By a margin, the largest reason that consumers have avoided purchasing an electric car is range anxiety. That is, 58 percent of drivers are afraid that they will run out of power before being able to charge their vehicle, while another 49 percent fear the low availability of charging stations. Overall, 61 percent of those surveyed said that they would be more inclined to purchase an EV if there were more charging stations. Faster charging could also convince more drivers to switch. Thirty-eight percent of EV owners surveyed reportedly feel that charging their vehicle takes longer than they anticipated, while nearly half (48 percent) said that they would pay more to charge in half the time it currently takes them.

The upfront cost of electrified vehicles have also put off consumers looking to purchase a new car. Buying a vehicle with any form of electrification generally tends to be more expensive. As an example, consumers looking at purchasing the lowest-cost Tesla Model 3 will find themselves paying $42,900 out of pocket, nearly 19 percent higher the national average of a new car in the United States hovers at $36,115. "It's just like people literally don't have the money to buy the car," commented Tesla CEO Elon Musk on the cost of the company's most affordable sedan, the Model 3, during a quarterly earnings call. "It's got nothing to do with desire. They just don't have enough money in their bank account. If the car can be made more affordable, the demand is extraordinary."

Of course, finance is also a huge player when making any purchase. More than half (57 percent) of consumers said that they would be more likely to purchase an EV if it were the same price as a traditional vehicle.


The record of the dealers and car companies in selling these vehicles is poor as well:

Experts and advocates have consistently found dealers and manufacturers putting as little effort as possible into selling electric cars. In 2016, the Sierra Club sent volunteers to more than 300 dealerships around the country to record their experience shopping for an electric vehicle. The results were dismaying, to say the least. More than one in five Ford and Chevy dealers had failed to charge an EV so it could be taken for a test drive. Only around half of salespeople explained how to fuel a plug-in vehicle, and only a third discussed the tax credits available to buyers.

Many volunteers described dealers who were woefully incompetent or, in some cases, openly hostile to EVs. “Senior sales staff had no idea what the battery electric vehicles’ range was. He called it a go-cart,” said a volunteer in New York. “There were no EVs in stock and [the dealer] stated that he has no interest in ever selling an electric vehicle,” said another in Maine. “I couldn’t do a test drive because the key was lost. I was encouraged to purchase a non-electric vehicle instead,” said another in Connecticut. If dealers are reluctant to sell EVs, that has an impact on consumers. Studies show that drivers are more likely to buy an electric car after they take one for a spin.

Dealers may be reluctant to sell EVs because, like most Americans, they don’t know much about them. “A lot of our salesmen are not familiar with electric vehicles themselves, and so rather than try to sell people something they don’t know or don’t feel comfortable with, they’re trying to sell them something else.” A 2014 study found that drivers shopping for an EV were much less satisfied with their experience than those who were shopping for a conventional car.

Researchers further explained that EVs need less maintenance than conventional cars, which puts a dent in the dealer’s bottom line. “I got my [BMW] i3 in April of last year, so I have had it for a year and a half, let’s say, and I’m not due for my first maintenance until January,” Greene said, explaining that because EVs generate so little money after they are sold, salespeople are less inclined to move them off the lot. “Dealerships make a very large fraction, if not most of their money from maintenance and repairs”

It’s not just dealers who are failing to sell EVs. Manufacturers spend appallingly little on marketing plug-in cars. A study commissioned by the Northeast States for Coordinated Air Use Management found that U.S. automakers are investing next to nothing on advertising electric cars such as the Ford C-Max Energi and Chevy Bolt. In 2017, manufacturers spent roughly an order of magnitude more nationally marketing SUVs and trucks, like the Chevy Silverado and Ford F-150. “Here in Tennessee, you will rarely see an electric car advertisement on television,” Greene said. “They just don’t get advertised the way other vehicles get advertised.”
ARE CAR DEALERS TO BLAME FOR LAGGING EV SALES?

So let's recap the actual reasons cited for poor EV sales:
1. EVs are more expensive
2. EVs have poorer range
3. EVs have less refueling locations
4. EVs take longer to refuel
5. EVs have marketing budgets an order of magnitude smaller than ICE vehicles
6. EVs have incompetent and/or openly hostile dealers selling them

When you look at all these issues, is it really any wonder ICE vehicles are outselling EVs?
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 9

Unread postby asg70 » Wed 08 May 2019, 08:11:33

Plantagenet wrote:There are two other problems with EVs that you aren't considering


Both of which are being addressed. Probably the cheapest EV in SUV form-factor is the Niro (the Kona is more of a subcompact in SUV cladding like the Bolt). Given the limited quanties of Hyundai/Kia I think the first truly mass-produced car that will probably be both cheap and in SUV form will be the ID Crozz. It's not vaporware and it's not as far away as you might think. Looks like it's going to be built in TN.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 9

Unread postby asg70 » Wed 08 May 2019, 08:18:40

kublikhan wrote:6. EVs have incompetent and/or openly hostile dealers selling them


I can only speak for myself but a massive ICE gear-head sold me my Kona electric and he didn't attempt to put a negative spin on the car or try to steer me towards an ICE. He had already sold the previous one after being in the showroom for only 2 days. So from his perspective it's just another commission. They are not keeping these cars buried in the back. It was right in the middle of the showroom floor.

I think most of the anti-sell is coming from GM and Nissan and a big part of that is that its EVs just aren't that appealing. The Volt sort of was early on but the Bolt is homely and the original Leaf was even worse. Make a decent car and dealers will embrace it.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 9

Unread postby kublikhan » Wed 08 May 2019, 10:16:03

It's not just the fugly factor of EVs. Another reason cited was: EVs are new and different and dealers are not up to speed on everything they need to know about EVs: tax credits for their state, how an EV differs from an ICE, etc. This issue should correct itself over time as EVs slowly become mainstream and sales personnel are properly educated about what they need to know.

The other issue cited was lower dealer profits on EVs, particularly on maintenance. One advantage EVs have over ICE vehicles is lower maintenance costs. That's good for the consumer but bad for the dealer as the dealers make more money servicing the cars than selling them. Even if the sales personnel only care about their commission and don't give a rats ass about service department revenue, their boss certainly does. And he can incentivise his sales force to push vehicles he sees as more profitable for his dealership.

While the rising wave of vehicular electrification may be good news for proponents of clean air, it has dealerships worried about the future of the bottom line. Currently, as much as 44 percent of dealer income can be generated by the service department. As an industry, vehicle service generates an estimated $247 billion per year.

Service is so profitable, in fact, that dealerships will often accept a lower initial vehicle price for future potential revenue. Customers can haggle over heated seats or an upgraded stereo, but hourly labor charges and parts costs are non-negotiable.

Electric propulsion systems are mechanically much simpler than internal combustion ones, however, and will require fewer service visits. “No doubt service revenue will go down, because EVs contain about 40 percent fewer parts.” With no transmissions to maintain, no mufflers to replace, and no engine oil to be changed, future revenue from EV service will depend on brakes, tires, wheel alignments, and battery refurbishment.
Electric vehicles threaten dealership profits

And these are not just US problems. The same issues were found in a similar study in Europe:

As most consumers do not have pre-existing knowledge of electric vehicles (EVs), and current market conditions favour petrol and diesel vehicles, car dealership experiences may strongly influence EV purchasing decisions. Here, we show that car dealerships pose a significant barrier at the point of sale due to a perceived lack of business case viability in relation to petrol and diesel vehicles. In 126 shopping experiences at 82 car dealerships across Denmark, Finland, Iceland, Norway and Sweden, we find that dealers were dismissive of EVs, misinformed shoppers on vehicle specifications, omitted EVs from the sales conversation and strongly oriented customers towards petrol and diesel vehicle options. Dealers' technological orientation, willingness to sell and displayed knowledge of EVs were the main contributors to likely purchase intentions. These findings combined with expert interviews suggest that government and industry signalling affect sales strategies and purchasing trends.

Managers, industry experts and dealers believe the lack of willingness to promote and sell EVs derives from their low profitability, lack of EV models on site, lack of knowledge and competence about EV specifications, and that EVs take longer to sell. Given these factors, salespeople opt for the known and easier-to-sell conventional cars. Moreover, EVs were seen to negatively affect dealer profitability, not only from an initial investment perspective (setting up charging infrastructure and additional personnel training), but also due to a decreased need for maintenance and other services and consequent reductions in dealer revenue. These barriers resemble those in North America, in particular the lack of availability of EV models, longer lead times and willingness of salespeople to sell the technology.
Dismissive and deceptive car dealerships create barriers to electric vehicle adoption at the point of sale

These are areas where Tesla has a lead over traditional car makers:
1. Teslas are not fugly.
2. Tesla direct sales bypass both the dealer information problem and their disincentive to sell EVs because of their lack of service revenue and other reasons.
If only Tesla could actually make money selling EVs......
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 9

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Wed 08 May 2019, 11:28:59

asg70 wrote:
kublikhan wrote:6. EVs have incompetent and/or openly hostile dealers selling them

...

I think most of the anti-sell is coming from GM and Nissan and a big part of that is that its EVs just aren't that appealing. The Volt sort of was early on but the Bolt is homely and the original Leaf was even worse. Make a decent car and dealers will embrace it.

When you consider HEV's, I think the problem is a lot bigger than just GM and Nissan. I love Toyota, generally, as a car company. Honda also. But BOTH are abysmal in terms of the way their dealerships (don't) stock a reasonable supply of HEV's on their lots, at least in the central KY area where I live.

You'll consistently find scores to literally hundreds of the ICE form of the Camry or Accord, for example (or other popular ICE's like the Corolla or Civic). And maybe 3 HEV Camry or Accords on the same lots, if you're lucky. And not even in a good variety of trims, much less colors, etc. And the dealers aren't incented to seriously dicker on those the way they will on the ICE's. The Prius isn't as bad, but for such a high volume vehicle, it's not like the volumes of those on the lots were impressive. (And this includes from years ago when the Prius sold a lot more than it does recently, last time I checked).

I don't know if it's sales staff training, mind-set, profit margins, expected volumes, or what -- it's not open hostility that I find to be the problem as much as outright dealer disinterest. But that filters back to the customer. Next time around I want an EV of some sort. But I don't want to have to over pay by $thousands, nor have to take a car which I really don't want re options, pricing, trim level, etc.

And I think the car companies have to be at least generally aware of this, and if they REALLY wanted to sell a lot of HEV's, I think they would offer dealers some kind of incentive, at least for awhile, now that the current generation of HEV's is getting to be seriously good in terms of price/performance, competence, value, etc.

Whether that happens for both HEV's and BEV's/PHEV's, from dealers who sell ICE's, remains to be seen.
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 9

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Wed 08 May 2019, 11:45:37

kublikhan wrote:These are areas where Tesla has a lead over traditional car makers:
1. Teslas are not fugly.
2. Tesla direct sales bypass both the dealer information problem and their disincentive to sell EVs because of their lack of service revenue and other reasons.
If only Tesla could actually make money selling EVs......

But this cuts both ways, IMO.

Fugly is in the eye of the beholder. Those god-awful wheels on the supposed $35K Tesla Model 3 are a pure no-go for me. (People like different things -- for me, wheels are important.) And of course Tesla being Tesla, getting the wheel upgrade is expensive. Unlike many competitors where you can switch to another trim level, upgrade a whole list of things, and get nice alloy wheels as one of the benefits -- sometimes for much less than Tesla wants just for decent wheels. I'll cite my 2017 Toyota Camry SE vs. the LE as an example where I paid specific attention to this. I wanted alloy wheels, a sunroof, and aside from that -- cheap. And that's exactly what I got with zero hassle and no wait.

Re dealerships, as a Tesla observer, I think the lack of dealerships may well help Tesla's bottom line (which is horrendous, anyway). But it sure doesn't help the customer experience. Dealerships WANT repeat sales and to do service on customer cars. Thus they are directly incented to take reasonable care of the customer. And in my experience, they do. The widespread, and many-sourced reports of horrendous Tesla customer service, especially on servicing the vehicles, makes Tesla a complete no-go for me, even IF there were a local sales and service center (but there's not even one in my state). Oh, and Tesla doesn't authorize competitiors, generally to do warranty work on their cars, trapping the customer into the bad experience. (I HAD all the bad experience with cars I want before I found Toyota, thank you very much). I think if there were a local Tesla dealer, they would at least be trying to mitigate the issues, by trying to stock parts, for example. And maybe using some sort of alternative competitive parts with full disclosure and no wait, if they can - to improve wait times, for another example.

The internet helps people get information. I'm not convinced Tesla can overcome its service issues and fool the middle class, given that the internet will tell the tale if service remains bad. In the end, Tesla may NEED dealerships. Time will tell. (And I do acknowledge that I don't like the effort I have to go to to ensure I don't get screwed when buying a car at a dealership. Not sure I see an advantage Tesla has there, as they just charge what they want, however.)
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 9

Unread postby Plantagenet » Wed 08 May 2019, 14:06:55

eclipse wrote:Hi Plant,
I notice you still assume people will be buying cars as if that is an indefinite matter? Have you read the stuff on automation and how that could impact the car industry?


I've read some of it. I've also read that robo taxis are 10+ years away from being ready for release into the market.

eclipse wrote:Robot-EV's are expensive to buy, but could be REALLY cheap to hire if we share that capital cost amongst the community. They could be so cheap to hire that many people simply stop buying cars. And many companies will have a variety of vehicles you can hire.


I guess. I read a science fiction story like that once.

However, we are required by the nature of reality to live in the physical world, not in an imaginary place.

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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 9

Unread postby Plantagenet » Wed 08 May 2019, 14:14:48

kublikhan wrote:These are areas where Tesla has a lead over traditional car makers:
1. Teslas are not fugly.
2. Tesla direct sales bypass both the dealer information problem and their disincentive to sell EVs because of their lack of service revenue and other reasons.


1. Most Americans think sedans are ugly and impractical. People want SUVs and pickup trucks these days.

2. And the lack of local dealerships is a drawback, IMHO. I see lower down in your post you agree with this important point.

People want to see the car and kick the tires before they buy it. Its just human nature. Teslas weren't "real" to me until I visited the lower 48 and went into a Tesla store in San Francisco and checked it out for myself. I'm sure many people feel the same way....they want to see and test drive a car before they spend huge amounts of money on it, and there are large areas of the US (and the world) where the lack of dealers with cars is a buzzkill.

3. And that brings me back to the third big problem with Teslas. They are more expensive then ICE vehicles. Money is a important consideration for most people, and the prospect of buying a Tesla and spending more money for less car is a deal killer for many people.

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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 9

Unread postby Plantagenet » Wed 08 May 2019, 15:36:50

VW now taking deposits on an EV hatchback----designed to be the successor to the iconic VW beetle.

vw-introduces-ev-hatchback-34-billion-plan-take-down-tesla

VW has built a nice looking vehicle, and its cheaper and better then the Tesla model S. And, best of all, its not a sedan!!!

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VW beetle reincarnated as an EV?
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 9

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Thu 09 May 2019, 01:44:47

Plantagenet wrote:VW has built a nice looking vehicle, and its cheaper and better then the Tesla model S. And, best of all, its not a sedan!!!

I'm no Tesla fan, given the quality and service vs. hype reality. Oh, and the constant large annual losses, despite Musk promises.

And I think the Model Y announcement was a disaster, since instead of an actual SUV, as had been promised, it is just a slightly larger Model 3 sedan, which will mostly just cannibalize Model 3 sales, instead of being the car to take Tesla to the "next level" as Musk had claimed.

But I don't get the comment about the VW ID3 being "better" than the Model S. Cheaper certainly. And 20+ models by 2025 based on it, to give customers lots of choice is GREAT news. Different certainly.

But for range, acceleration, sportiness, etc. the Model S clearly trumps the ID3 -- the ID3 is clearly more along the lines of a Bolt or a Kona in general performance. Nothing wrong with that, but I don't see most reasonably objective observers agreeing that means it's "better" than a Model S. Especially when you get to the high-end trim levels for the S.

And if the ID3 is going to be nearly 40,000 Euros for the middle range version, that's disappointing. Earlier claims I'd seen had it more like under $30,000 with the federal tax credit when it hits the US. Maybe that's for the 180 mile version, but that certainly won't be a high performance car.

Of course, at the end of the day, service, availability, dealer support, etc. will be key. If VW takes good care of its customers and makes getting the cars convenient over a wide area in Europe, and then the US, it will massively trump Tesla as far as having a broad appeal to people practical enough to care about the ownership experience over time.
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 9

Unread postby eclipse » Thu 09 May 2019, 03:56:08

kublikhan wrote:If you want something more recent:

JAN. 14, 2019 - After a groundbreaking year, CNU is gearing up for more action and progress in the next 12 months and beyond. CNU has inspired change. Our ideas and approaches have been adopted and implemented by allied (and not-so-allied) organizations, state and local governments, and urban design and development professionals throughout the U.S. and abroad.

Our goal is to reach 42,000 local governments with zoning authority in five years. Working collaboratively with state partners on the development and dissemination of code reforms, we have begun creating state-specific guides that will enable us to reach this goal.

Looking internationally, in April, CNU was selected as an official Urban Design Provider to the Chinese government. Chinese cities can now request CNU training and design assistance from the Chinese State Administration of Foreign Affairs Experts (SAFEA).

Finally, we launched a project database that features New Urbanist Projects from the US and around the world. While far from complete, in 2019, we will continue to add and map projects.
2018 in review and a preview of 2019

June 5, 2018 - As our current demographics are changing, we are seeing a shift in housing priorities due to the two largest generations in American history, the baby boomers (born 1946-1964) and the millennials (born 1979-1996). Many baby boomers are now approaching retirement and downsizing since they no longer live with their children. This makes walkable neighborhoods more appealing to them, located in the denser areas like city and suburban town centers. Millennials also prefer these areas for the way of life and because it easy not to own a car. The Realtor’s survey found that currently only 12 percent of future homeowners favor houses in the “suburban-fringe” that rely completely on driving. By contrast, the most expensive housing on the market today is found in high-density and pedestrian friendly neighborhoods.
Walkable Infrastructure in Cities

April 15, 2019 - It’s spring home-buying season and thousands of prospective buyers have taken to California’s housing market. Although many factors will influence their purchasing decisions, new data from Trulia indicates that the percentage of Los Angeles homebuyers searching for homes near public transportation is on the rise. According to the company’s data, home listings in Los Angeles that specify public transportation have steadily increased in the last few years. “The share of listings in L.A. including public transit keywords such as ‘metro’ or ‘subway’ has doubled since 2013,” Trulia writes. “These listings are especially common along L.A.’s Metro rail lines, which are the focus of a $120 billion public transit expansion.” Additionally, in all but the most-expensive market segment, homes boasting of nearby transit access are selling for about 4.2% more than their counterparts.

Los Angeles is infamous for its sprawl and car culture. But the city is actively promoting alternatives to private automobiles, and mobility in and around L.A. has changed dramatically in recent years,” Trulia writes. “Santa Monica is actively experimenting with electric scooters in its Shared Mobility Pilot Program, and L.A. taxpayers have pledged $120 billion toward expanding public transit.”
This is how public transportation is transforming California's housing market

Real Estate Trend #3: The Majority of Home Buyers Are Millennials
What More Millennial Home Buyers Means for Sellers
Location. A lot of millennials are looking for homes in 18-hour cities like Nashville, Tennessee, or Austin, Texas, that offer big city life at a more affordable cost of living. If your home is in a walkable area with access to public transit, expect millennials to come knocking at your door.
2019 Real Estate Trends: What You Need to Know


Thanks Khan! Love your work here.
Dr James Hansen recommends breeder reactors that convert nuclear 'waste' into 1000 years of clean energy for America, and can charge all our light vehicles and generate "Blue Crude" for heavy vehicles.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 9

Unread postby eclipse » Thu 09 May 2019, 04:01:01

Plantagenet wrote:
eclipse wrote:t if robot-taxis just drop you in a loading bay, then maybe it can become a potential bridging technology. The real battle? Convincing law makers and town planners that we need proper public transport supporting the various flavours of ecocity and New Urban design. Convincing people that suburbia isn't the western dream. That cars don't represent freedom, but entrapment. That's the challenge.


Wouldn't it save a lot of time and money just to move directly to building the needed public transport systems (light rail, high speed rail, etc.) rather then wasting trillions of dollars and untold years on this fantasy of "robo-taxis?"

We know how to build light rail and other kinds of EV public transit now. Why waste years waiting for robo taxis to be built first?

Image
I'd rather have a real light rail system now then an imaginary robo taxi system later.


YUP! Totally. But I'm just keeping my eyes open to all possibilities, and one of them is the robot-taxi security blanket that eventually convinces people to dump their own cars, and also creates the opportunities for loading bays. Remember the 7 minute walk rule, and that driving to a town square ruins it? If you live under 7 minutes away you'll walk, but over 7 minutes and you'll drive — and that requires carparks — and that extra space throws everything out. I see robot-taxi loading bays as a stepping stone between suburbia and town squares — as long as the relevant local town planning authorities figure it out.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 9

Unread postby asg70 » Thu 09 May 2019, 12:58:27

Plantagenet wrote:VW now taking deposits on an EV hatchback----designed to be the successor to the iconic VW beetle.

vw-introduces-ev-hatchback-34-billion-plan-take-down-tesla


Wrong again as always. Successor to the Rabbit/Golf. One need only look at the body shell to know that.

Image

Plantagenet wrote:VW has built a nice looking vehicle, and its cheaper and better then the Tesla model S. And, best of all, its not a sedan!!!


Not a sedan as in no trunk, but not an SUV either. That's why VW isn't aiming to fast-track this for the US. Instead it's building that plant in TN to build the ID Crozz (CUV).
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 9

Unread postby Plantagenet » Thu 09 May 2019, 15:30:01

asg70 wrote:
Plantagenet wrote:VW now taking deposits on an EV hatchback----designed to be the successor to the iconic VW beetle.

vw-introduces-ev-hatchback-34-billion-plan-take-down-tesla


Wrong again as always. Successor to the Rabbit/Golf. One need only look at the body shell to know that.


Actually, you're wrong again as always.

If you read the news story you'll see that VW believes that their new EV can become as popular and as beloved and as successful as the iconic and classic VW beetle. People still rave about how great the VW beetle was.

The VW Rabbit, by comparison, was not nearly as successful. You don't see a lot of people raving over the VW Rabbit/Golf. Except you, of course.

Get it now?

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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 9

Unread postby Plantagenet » Thu 09 May 2019, 15:41:45

Outcast_Searcher wrote:I don't get the comment about the VW ID3 being "better" than the Model S. Cheaper certainly.


Its my personal opinion that the VW EV will be a better buy then the entry level Tesla and I believe VW will sell many more VW ID3s then Tesla sells Model S cars.

The base price for a 2019 model S is $76,000, while the base price for the VW ID3 is projected to be under 30,000 Euros, which equates to roughly $35-$40,000, or about half of the Model S.

This means the Tesla model S will be roughy twice as expensive as the VW ID3, even though both cars will have similar range and other characteristics. This why VW considers the VW ID3 to be a "Tesla killer." Its clearly a much better value.

And I agree with VW. Given the huge price disparity in favor the VW EV, I'd say its a better buy for someone looking for an entry level EV.

I don't think Tesla can compete with VW in the entry EV space. Their only hope to survive, IMHO, is to abandon their dreams of competing in the entry level space and go back to being solely a luxury sports car manufacturer.

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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 9

Unread postby asg70 » Thu 09 May 2019, 17:36:05

Plantagenet wrote:If you read the news story you'll see that VW believes that their new EV can become as popular and as beloved and as successful as the iconic and classic VW beetle.


VW already has a modern beetle. It also has a Golf. The ID 3 is a next gen Golf...PERIOD. You can speak figuratively about it being a beetle in the same way the Model 3 was seen as the EV equivalent of the Model T, but that's about it. The ID Buzz is meant to evoke the air-cooled era, but not the ID 3.

Plantagenet wrote:The VW Rabbit, by comparison, was not nearly as successful.


It was hugely successful. In fact it ushered in the modern VW era when the Beetle couldn't keep up with safety/emissions standards. It also spawned dozens of imitators and really created and popularized the hatchback segment (around the same time as Honda with the Civic). Imitators were the Chevette, the Dodge Omni, etc...

From Wikipedia:

Historically, the Golf is Volkswagen's best-selling model and is among the world's top three best-selling models, with more than 30 million built by June 2013.


Presumably that includes all Golf generations up until that point. The Beetle sold approximately 21 million. Don't expect the ID range to go mostly unchanged for decades the way the Beetle did. The MEB platform is modular but technology changes too rapidly for the Beetle story to ever be duplicated.

You're really out of your element if you want to talk about cars. Maybe go back to fearmongering over EVs causing cancer.

Other than these quibbles, I DO AGREE that VW is poised to dethrone Tesla and become the top EV brand.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 9

Unread postby Plantagenet » Thu 09 May 2019, 17:59:32

asg70 wrote:The ID 3 is a next gen Golf...PERIOD.


Thats not how VW is describing it.......PERIOD.

asg70 wrote: the Model 3 was seen as the EV equivalent of the Model T


Maybe in your mind, but I don't think any rational person ever saw it that way. For instance, the Model T was priced at the rock bottom of the car market. The Model 3 doesn't target that segment of the market at all.

-------------------------

OK...enough of your attempts to derail the thread. Lets get back to the news.

VW announced today that they had received 10,000 orders for the new VW EV ID.3 in the first 24 hours since their announcement. Its only available in the EU so far, by the way.

vw-id-3-electric-hatchback-10000-preorders-24-hours

So far the VW EV ID.3 is off to a grand start.

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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 9

Unread postby asg70 » Thu 09 May 2019, 18:38:00

Plantagenet wrote:Maybe in your mind, but I don't think any rational person ever saw it that way.


Go review the hype about the Model 3 back during the reveal of 2016. That was, of course, assuming a "compelling" base vehicle with the full suite of tax credits. That's not how it turned out in the end.

Anyway, we could go in circles arguing this minutiae forever if you like. So while you whine about the thread being derailed, remember it takes two to tango.

As far as the ID3 being a success, while 10K reservations are nice, they're a far cry from the 300K+ reservations that came in for the Model 3.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 9

Unread postby Plantagenet » Fri 10 May 2019, 11:00:40

asg70 wrote:Go review the hype about the Model 3 back during the reveal of 2016....


No thanks.

I have no interest in arguing with you over the now disproven hype Tesla put out to promote their car in 2016.

I'm much more interested in discussing the interesting things happening right now in the real world.

I think the VW ID.3 EV is going to be a big success for VW. The EU, with its electric HSR network. electric urban tram networks, and now a viable EV "city car" coming on the market, is leading the way into the post carbon world. Its fascinating to see it happening.

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