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THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 11

Discussions of conventional and alternative energy production technologies.

Re: Stock Market Crash! (merged) Pt. 22

Unread postby careinke » Sun 19 Sep 2021, 01:37:09

Plantagenet wrote:Lucky is 100% right here.

Tesla is way overvalued, and competition from Chinese and European EV makers is coming and if Tesla can't compete then Teslas stock is going to crash.

Even Cathy Wood at ARK ETFs, who used to be Tesla's biggest fan on Wall Street, has been selling off her shares of Tesla.

cathie-wood-keeps-selling-tesla-unloading-62-million-shares

So the Wall Street pros are selling out of Tesla......any individual investors still holding Tesla stock should be aware it is very very risky, IMHO.

Cheers!


Cathy Wood is also a strong supporter of Bitcoin and Eth. Of course that's not uncomon these days as 52% of institutional investors now have some stake in Crypto.

Peace, and welcome to the metaverse.
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Re: Stock Market Crash! (merged) Pt. 22

Unread postby Plantagenet » Sun 19 Sep 2021, 02:18:12

careinke wrote:
Cathy Wood is also a strong supporter of Bitcoin and Eth. Of course that's not uncomon these days as 52% of institutional investors now have some stake in Crypto.

Peace, and welcome to the metaverse.


You are exactly right, careinke.

And speaking of investing in cryptocurrency I hope you're doing great with your own crypto-holdings.

As for me------I totally don't get cryptocurrency and I know it.

I don't know how to put a value on it so I can't make myself invest in it.

When I comes to stocks I can look at what the company does and examine its earnings and check the analysts ratings and see what the Fed is doing and look at the competitors and make a judgement based on some elements of factual information. I see stocks go up and down and when a good stock is down at a low price then thats a good time to buy.

But crypto currency I just don't get. When is it at a low price so its time to buy? What is fair value? What makes it go up? What makes it go down? Why is it so volatile? I just don't get it.

You are braver man than I am, Gunga Din, when it comes to investing in crypto currency.

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Re: Stock Market Crash! (merged) Pt. 22

Unread postby careinke » Sun 19 Sep 2021, 04:48:01

Plantagenet wrote:
careinke wrote:
Cathy Wood is also a strong supporter of Bitcoin and Eth. Of course that's not uncomon these days as 52% of institutional investors now have some stake in Crypto.

Peace, and welcome to the metaverse.


You are exactly right, careinke.

And speaking of investing in cryptocurrency I hope you're doing great with your own crypto-holdings.

As for me------I totally don't get cryptocurrency and I know it.

I don't know how to put a value on it so I can't make myself invest in it.

When I comes to stocks I can look at what the company does and examine its earnings and check the analysts ratings and see what the Fed is doing and look at the competitors and make a judgement based on some elements of factual information. I see stocks go up and down and when a good stock is down at a low price then thats a good time to buy.

But crypto currency I just don't get. When is it at a low price so its time to buy? What is fair value? What makes it go up? What makes it go down? Why is it so volatile? I just don't get it.

You are braver man than I am, Gunga Din, when it comes to investing in crypto currency.

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Its time to buy more Bitcoin, Gunga Din!!!!

GOOD LUCK!


Plant, thanks for the well wishes. I am still doing well in Crypto, and have expanded into some very promising altcoins. I am anxiously awaiting the final quarter in the four year cycle where we go into a blow off top. I'll be taking profits then.

This is probably the best resource on all things crypto:
https://www.realvision.com/videos/crypto

You can get answers to almost all your questions answered with this one resource. The interviews are amazingly well done and much better than you will see on traditional media. Quite frankly when I found them I was blown away with the quality. Now I refer most of my friends there when I get asked about crypto. (Don't buy his pay stuff until you go through the free stuff which is a LOT, and free for the taking.)

Find the video between Raul Pal and Mike Saylor for one of the best top down looks at Bicoin.

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Re: Stock Market Crash! (merged) Pt. 22

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Sun 19 Sep 2021, 18:16:32

theluckycountry wrote:This question may not be relevant because Tesla can always go back to the capital market to raise more funds either through debts or equity even if it doesn’t have the money to pay off existing debt.


And that EG, is how the world works now.

I am NOT a Musk fan, and in fact often criticize him for all his false claims and TSLA pumping.

However, in the real world, Tesla has been growing revenues by selling all the cars it can make rather promptly, for years, with revenue growing by a good 50% or so, typically. And like it or not, though it's not highly profitable, has been steadily increasing profits over time.

And I'm NOT assuming the various Tesla fanboi claimed ventures like automated vehicles, insurance, etc. ever make any money at all.

When Tesla ACTUALLY shows meaningful signs of "failure", re not being able to grow massively in the EV market, be SURE and get back to us.
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 11

Unread postby evilgenius » Sat 25 Sep 2021, 09:22:07

I wonder if the supermarket won't become important to the energy equation of the future? It's the only place left for regular charging. People don't go to the mall on a regular basis. Malls are also farther away from where people live. Supermarkets are usually close enough that if you charged there you wouldn't have to use up a lot of your charge just getting back home. Nobody wants to deal with getting 100 miles of charge only to lose 10 of it getting back from the mall.

When I drove for a living I used to make deliveries to care homes within neighborhoods. Some neighborhoods had little GI period houses with so many cars around them that there was no free space. That's what happens when houses house extended families. There will be more people of driving age. Charging all or those cars at once will be a problem. It's not just a random house here and there. In some neighborhoods, they are all like that. Mom and dad will get theirs. Older brother who pays the bills will get his. Everybody else will have to look for options at least some of the time. People also live in apartments where the charging situation will be sketchy.

Supermarkets don't have to offer only fast charging. Fast charging is fantastic, if battery tech has advanced enough so that it can be used regularly. Otherwise, many people would only use the supermarket to charge their car for however many minutes they were shopping for, as they don't drive that many miles in a week. Most people would be able to use the supermarket for the marginal charging they needed.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 11

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Wed 29 Sep 2021, 17:24:55

evilgenius wrote:I wonder if the supermarket won't become important to the energy equation of the future? It's the only place left for regular charging. People don't go to the mall on a regular basis. Malls are also farther away from where people live. Supermarkets are usually close enough that if you charged there you wouldn't have to use up a lot of your charge just getting back home. Nobody wants to deal with getting 100 miles of charge only to lose 10 of it getting back from the mall.

OTOH, there's peoples' homes, re driveways, carports, and garages, which are actually the most common and reliable points for charging.

There's a reason there are growing standards to build new housing with the capability to have a L2 charge point installed.

But don't take my word for it. Simply google "charging evs at home".

Just because malls are largely collapsing as online shopping expands (duh) doesn't mean charging an EV is an impossibly difficult problem in the US, overall.
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 11

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Wed 29 Sep 2021, 18:14:34

Outcast_Searcher wrote:
evilgenius wrote:...
.... Supermarkets are usually close enough that if you charged there you wouldn't have to use up a lot of your charge just getting back home. Nobody wants to deal with getting 100 miles of charge only to lose 10 of it getting back from the mall.

OTOH, there's peoples' homes, re driveways, carports, and garages, which are actually the most common and reliable points for charging.

There's a reason there are growing standards to build new housing with the capability to have a L2 charge point installed.

But don't take my word for it. Simply google "charging evs at home".

Just because malls are largely collapsing as online shopping expands (duh) doesn't mean charging an EV is an impossibly difficult problem in the US, overall.

I quite agree with you Outcast. the average US commute is 32 miles round trip so an EV with just 160 miles of winter conditions range could be charged up once a week for all those that are average and below distance wise. So more then half of commuters are well served by currently available models. Then consider that all but a few spend twelve hours plus at home each day between sleeping, doing meal prep and consumption, child care etc. with the car parked outside or in the garage which could be hooked to a 240 volt service charger, and much of those hours will be off peak so should qualify for off peak charging rates. Then consider that it will take years to build enough EVs to meet the demand from that half of commuters (about 40 million is half). And even apartment dwellers that have dedicated parking spaces in attached parking garages could pay a market driven premium to have a charge port at their parking space. So I think the fear that there will be limited charging opportunities is well off the mark and will rapidly diminish as the EVs are rolled out.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 11

Unread postby Plantagenet » Sat 06 Nov 2021, 01:10:04

Volvo just released an analysis of the carbon footprint of their EV cars versus their ICE cars

Volvo-says-electric-car-making-emissions-70%-HIGHER-then-petrol

Their analysis had two parts....

The first part was an analysis of the carbon footprint involved in manufacturing the car. They found that the EV car coming out of the factory had a carbon footprint that was MUCH bigger then a comparable ICE car....in fact they estimated the carbon footprint of the EV was 170% of the ICE car carbon footprint, i.e. it was 70% BIGGER.

This means the EV has a much LARGER carbon footprint then an identical ICE when both are new.

The second part of the VOLVO analysis added in the carbon production from both cars during the life cycle of the car, ie how much CO2 was released as the cars were driven.

It might surprise some people that driving EVs can result in significant CO2 emissions, but the VOLVO analysis shows that significant amounts of CO2 can be released while generating the electricity used by the EV.

VOLVO only considered 3 scenarios in their analyses....(1) electricity generated only by renewable energy (2) electricity generated by a mix of renewable energy and fossil fuels like coal and diesel equal to the average electricity found in the EU and (3) electricity generated by a mix of renewable energy of renewable energy and fossil fuels like coal and diesel equal to the average for the entire world's electricity output. There is a fourth important scenario that VOLVE didn't analyze, but we can extrapolate it from the VOLVO data...(4) electricity generated only by fossils fuels like coal and diesel. This fourth scenario is important because large areas in China and India and local regions Germany and the US and other countries rely on coal-fired power plants to generate electricity.

Scenario (1) Volvo found that that total CO2 lifetime emissions from an EV powered 100% by wind power are about 27 tons, but are actually higher then an ICE car until the car is driven ca. 30,000 miles.

Scenario (2) Volvo that total CO2 lifetime emissions from an EV powered like something like the average EU energy mix would be ca. 42 tons, but would be higher then ICE car until the car is driven ca. 50,000 miles

Scenario (3) Volvo found that that total CO2 lifetime emissions from an EV powered by something like the average world electric mix would be ca. 50 tones, and would be higher then an ICE car until the car is driven ca. 70,000 miles.

and:

Scenario (4) If you use the same approach and consider an EV powered 100% by carbon intensive electricity generated by burning coal or diesel, it would have a carbon footprint of about 62 tons of CO2, i.e. it would have slightly higher CO2 emissions then a comparable ICE car over the entire life of the car.

Clearly we need much much much more renewable energy and other energy sources like nukes that don't emit carbon so that EVs can run as cleanly as possible.

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Volvo says the new Volvo EV will have a MUCH LARGER carbon footprint then a comparable ICE car when it comes out of the factory.

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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 11

Unread postby evilgenius » Sat 06 Nov 2021, 07:11:06

Outcast_Searcher wrote:
evilgenius wrote:I wonder if the supermarket won't become important to the energy equation of the future? It's the only place left for regular charging. People don't go to the mall on a regular basis. Malls are also farther away from where people live. Supermarkets are usually close enough that if you charged there you wouldn't have to use up a lot of your charge just getting back home. Nobody wants to deal with getting 100 miles of charge only to lose 10 of it getting back from the mall.

OTOH, there's peoples' homes, re driveways, carports, and garages, which are actually the most common and reliable points for charging.

There's a reason there are growing standards to build new housing with the capability to have a L2 charge point installed.

But don't take my word for it. Simply google "charging evs at home".

Just because malls are largely collapsing as online shopping expands (duh) doesn't mean charging an EV is an impossibly difficult problem in the US, overall.

I think you are missing how the segment I am referring to is a marginal aspect, not the main body. There will be demand for charging that is marginal, from the younger brothers and sisters who are not politically savvy or adept enough within their families to get access to the charger. There will be arrangements among roommates that won't work out all of the time. I suggest those numbers will be great enough that investors such as supermarket chains will take advantage. Maybe it will be rows of chargers along the street? The markets should respond in some way, unless there just hasn't been left enough room for them to.

If that happens, which it may not, I suppose it would also change the nature of supermarkets? People would not only go and shop for 45 minutes, but require other things for them to do for another 15 minutes. Even if the world discovers batteries that fast charge all of the time, it will still take some time to fully charge your downtrodden siblings' chronically undercharged vehicle. Especially so, if what happens with people, how they copycat off of each other, takes place and there is competition for the chargers.

I had another thought concerning how going electric could bring changes to basic things, which then effect ways we think about how we relate to each other. It doesn't mean it will happen, but I was wondering why there isn't more discussion about people being able to own so many square feet of solar panels anywhere, pumping electricity into the grid. You put so much in, so why can't you take so much out, with costs associated also being paid.

I know that in America there is a problem with this sort of approach. It tends to get handled like cable TV is handled, with a regulated monopoly. A regulated monopoly, however, may not be a good way to approach this sort of issue. It may be better to induce more competition. You know, like how competition has greatly reduced, or eliminated, investing fees.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 11

Unread postby JuanP » Sat 06 Nov 2021, 07:37:38

evilgenius wrote:I wonder if the supermarket won't become important to the energy equation of the future? It's the only place left for regular charging. People don't go to the mall on a regular basis. Malls are also farther away from where people live. Supermarkets are usually close enough that if you charged there you wouldn't have to use up a lot of your charge just getting back home. Nobody wants to deal with getting 100 miles of charge only to lose 10 of it getting back from the mall.

When I drove for a living I used to make deliveries to care homes within neighborhoods. Some neighborhoods had little GI period houses with so many cars around them that there was no free space. That's what happens when houses house extended families. There will be more people of driving age. Charging all or those cars at once will be a problem. It's not just a random house here and there. In some neighborhoods, they are all like that. Mom and dad will get theirs. Older brother who pays the bills will get his. Everybody else will have to look for options at least some of the time. People also live in apartments where the charging situation will be sketchy.

Supermarkets don't have to offer only fast charging. Fast charging is fantastic, if battery tech has advanced enough so that it can be used regularly. Otherwise, many people would only use the supermarket to charge their car for however many minutes they were shopping for, as they don't drive that many miles in a week. Most people would be able to use the supermarket for the marginal charging they needed.


My younger brother and his wife own a Nissan Leaf, which his wife and he drive very, very little. He has been charging it almost exclusively for FREE at a Whole Foods that is less than two blocks away from their townhouse for years. They shop there almost every single day because they buy their food in very small amounts; they basically decide what they want to eat that day and go to WF to buy the ingredients. They'll leave the car there to get it fully charged and walk home, if needed. The charging stations are covered with a solar panel roof, which is great in Miami's heat and there are always charging spaces available. The store also has a very nice rooftop eating place that includes an awesome juice and coffee bar. They can charge their car at home, but he prefers not to.

Also, many single family homes in Miami are being subdivided and used by multiple families and have their yards full of parked cars, making it hard for some to charge at home, just like you said. and your point about apartments and condos definitely applies down here, too.

Many stores in Miami are installing charging stations in their parking lots to attract customers.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 11

Unread postby JuanP » Sat 06 Nov 2021, 08:06:40

vtsnowedin wrote:
And even apartment dwellers that have dedicated parking spaces in attached parking garages could pay a market driven premium to have a charge port at their parking space.

Much easier said than done. There have been ongoing wars about this subject at most of Miami's large condo and apartment buildings for many years, particularly luxury ones where people are very wealthy, but the problem is expanding to lower cost units, too. Adding a large number of charging stations to a large condo or apartment complex can be extremely costly and difficult, often requiring the electric company to upgrade their distribution network, too.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 11

Unread postby evilgenius » Sat 06 Nov 2021, 08:11:18

I wonder if people who are traveling along a desert back road will have any qualms about using a charger they desperately need, if they see that it is diesel powered?

I suppose we, as a people, will accept a lot of things during the transition which we will later frown upon? But we are also lazy. We tend to keep accepting the not quite good enough because it costs a little more to get the good enough.

It plays out like an arc, like chasing rainbows. We accept the not quite good enough, until the good enough is considered a fantasy. We put it in a mental place where it is unreachable. That very mental structure may be what actually keeps us from reaching our own better futures, though.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 11

Unread postby AdamB » Sat 06 Nov 2021, 08:21:00

evilgenius wrote:I wonder if people who are traveling along a desert back road will have any qualms about using a charger they desperately need, if they see that it is diesel powered?


Why would they? Plant has a picture of the folks who during a conference or meeting (could it be COP26?) where everyone is pretending to be green and Tesla's are handed out as the cars to move folks about, that the Tesla's are being plugged into gensets powered by diesel. If the folks selling green don't mind, why would the normal EV user?

I bought mine for the economic advantage, not because I'm am inherently green. Plant, who bashes them incessantly, even claims to own run and run it around in central Alaska. No idea why someone who is a hater would join the club, but trolls do what trolls gotta do.

evilgenius wrote:I suppose we, as a people, will accept a lot of things during the transition which we will later frown upon? But we are also lazy. We tend to keep accepting the not quite good enough because it costs a little more to get the good enough.


Us First Worlders are lazy, I can agree with that. Seeing what Third Worlders do just in order to survive? I don't think that they can be lazy, AND survive. So they self select for non-lazy.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 11

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Sat 06 Nov 2021, 14:10:32

JuanP wrote:
vtsnowedin wrote:
And even apartment dwellers that have dedicated parking spaces in attached parking garages could pay a market driven premium to have a charge port at their parking space.

Much easier said than done. There have been ongoing wars about this subject at most of Miami's large condo and apartment buildings for many years, particularly luxury ones where people are very wealthy, but the problem is expanding to lower cost units, too. Adding a large number of charging stations to a large condo or apartment complex can be extremely costly and difficult, often requiring the electric company to upgrade their distribution network, too.

Well the cost of copper being where it is it will not be cheap but electrical upgrades and new installations are just work and easily done by professionals. A large condo unit is undoubtedly in a metro area and should already have a robust electric distribution system in place and if it does not it needs to be upgraded reguardless of a need for new charging capacity.
I can not see charging station access as the limiting factor on EV adoption. The supply of lithium and Chinese control over much of it is much more pressing and our government cannot get out of the way and let new sources in North America be developed and make us lithium independent.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 11

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Sat 06 Nov 2021, 14:41:38

JuanP wrote:
vtsnowedin wrote:
And even apartment dwellers that have dedicated parking spaces in attached parking garages could pay a market driven premium to have a charge port at their parking space.

Much easier said than done. There have been ongoing wars about this subject at most of Miami's large condo and apartment buildings for many years, particularly luxury ones where people are very wealthy, but the problem is expanding to lower cost units, too. Adding a large number of charging stations to a large condo or apartment complex can be extremely costly and difficult, often requiring the electric company to upgrade their distribution network, too.

But what is an issue in the short run isn't necessarily a big issue in the long run. Economies ADAPT to changing inputs over time, and the profit motive greatly aids that.

And as the pervasiveness of plug-in vehicles becomes more apparent over time, the need for planning for that will become much more obvious, just as the potential profits from dealing with that will become much more obvious (and the probabilities of such profits being realized grow).
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 11

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Sat 06 Nov 2021, 19:17:06

Outcast_Searcher wrote:
JuanP wrote:
vtsnowedin wrote:
And even apartment dwellers that have dedicated parking spaces in attached parking garages could pay a market driven premium to have a charge port at their parking space.

Much easier said than done. There have been ongoing wars about this subject at most of Miami's large condo and apartment buildings for many years, particularly luxury ones where people are very wealthy, but the problem is expanding to lower cost units, too. Adding a large number of charging stations to a large condo or apartment complex can be extremely costly and difficult, often requiring the electric company to upgrade their distribution network, too.

But what is an issue in the short run isn't necessarily a big issue in the long run. Economies ADAPT to changing inputs over time, and the profit motive greatly aids that.

And as the pervasiveness of plug-in vehicles becomes more apparent over time, the need for planning for that will become much more obvious, just as the potential profits from dealing with that will become much more obvious (and the probabilities of such profits being realized grow).

All true enough but the just passed infrastructure bill contains a lot of money for charging stations and EV subsidies. You can count on much of that being spent on putting the wrong chargers in the wrong place with administration cost more then half of the total.
If we get to EVs being the majority of the market it will be in spite of government "assistance" not because of it.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 11

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Sat 06 Nov 2021, 21:07:38

vtsnowedin wrote:
Outcast_Searcher wrote:
JuanP wrote:
vtsnowedin wrote:
And even apartment dwellers that have dedicated parking spaces in attached parking garages could pay a market driven premium to have a charge port at their parking space.

Much easier said than done. There have been ongoing wars about this subject at most of Miami's large condo and apartment buildings for many years, particularly luxury ones where people are very wealthy, but the problem is expanding to lower cost units, too. Adding a large number of charging stations to a large condo or apartment complex can be extremely costly and difficult, often requiring the electric company to upgrade their distribution network, too.

But what is an issue in the short run isn't necessarily a big issue in the long run. Economies ADAPT to changing inputs over time, and the profit motive greatly aids that.

And as the pervasiveness of plug-in vehicles becomes more apparent over time, the need for planning for that will become much more obvious, just as the potential profits from dealing with that will become much more obvious (and the probabilities of such profits being realized grow).

All true enough but the just passed infrastructure bill contains a lot of money for charging stations and EV subsidies. You can count on much of that being spent on putting the wrong chargers in the wrong place with administration cost more then half of the total.
If we get to EVs being the majority of the market it will be in spite of government "assistance" not because of it.

That may well be. I think it will be primarily economics in the end. But you have shown no evidence, only your opinion.
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 11

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Sun 07 Nov 2021, 05:04:11

Yes just my opinion but one formed from years of working for and with government.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 11

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Sun 07 Nov 2021, 16:16:32

vtsnowedin wrote:Yes just my opinion but one formed from years of working for and with government.

Well, if you have lots of objective evidence with credible sources, why not share it to make your point?
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 11

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Mon 08 Nov 2021, 08:31:04

Outcast_Searcher wrote:
vtsnowedin wrote:Yes just my opinion but one formed from years of working for and with government.

Well, if you have lots of objective evidence with credible sources, why not share it to make your point?

Lots of evidence has been posted by myself and others up thread. I see no need to endlessly repeat it with each post.
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