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THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 10

Discussions of conventional and alternative energy production technologies.

Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 10

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Mon 11 Nov 2019, 15:20:16

Thinking about what I would require in an EV for me to purchase one. It would have to be a pickup platform with at least a six foot bed allowing 4x8 sheets of building material to be hauled with the tailgate down. It would have to be 4X4 and have a range of 200 miles at twenty below zero F. It would have to have ground clearance enough and a durably bottom sheet etc. to allow it to wallow dragging through spring mud without sustaining any damage. Payload of about 1500 lbs without the range dropping below 100 miles. No need of "ludicrous" mode but a good crisp merge onto 75 mph interstates is a must. Electric charging costs would have to be less then sixteen cents per driven mile. Total lifetime cost would have to be at or below 58 cents per mile adjusted for inflation over the lifetime of the truck.
They are not there yet with any EV but I would not be surprised if something checking all those boxes is not on the market five years from now.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 10

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Mon 11 Nov 2019, 16:20:00

vtsnowedin wrote:Thinking about what I would require in an EV for me to purchase one. It would have to be a pickup platform with at least a six foot bed allowing 4x8 sheets of building material to be hauled with the tailgate down. It would have to be 4X4 and have a range of 200 miles at twenty below zero F. It would have to have ground clearance enough and a durably bottom sheet etc. to allow it to wallow dragging through spring mud without sustaining any damage. Payload of about 1500 lbs without the range dropping below 100 miles. No need of "ludicrous" mode but a good crisp merge onto 75 mph interstates is a must. Electric charging costs would have to be less then sixteen cents per driven mile. Total lifetime cost would have to be at or below 58 cents per mile adjusted for inflation over the lifetime of the truck.
They are not there yet with any EV but I would not be surprised if something checking all those boxes is not on the market five years from now.

That sounds like a reasonable forecast.

The major issue might be the wallow in the mud requirement, given how the batteries are placed at the bottom of the platform of pretty much all BEV's, via the skateboard design.

They're going to need those cages to be strong, durable, and CONSISTENTLY water tight for folks doing real work in mud, especially deep mud, in pickups. It can be done, given all the advancements in plastics, etc. It's a question of cost, and also of access to the battery pack for maintenance at a reasonable cost.

The good thing about waiting for 5 years or so, IMO, will be allowing MANY such issues (some of which haven't been thought of) to be found and fixed.

Given how the Tesla Model 3 has had problems with bumpers falling off in heavy rain, and with accumulating 25 or so pounds of dirt in the rear bumper of the Model 3 -- imagine such a design in a work truck.

Do you have a heated garage for overnight storage for your truck? At the temps. you're concerned about, that is a real "thing" for Tesla in frigid temps, given the vampire battery power loss. I don't know how much that will be an issue for competing brands / different designs. At a minimum though, a meaningful time for pack warm-up, and allowing 10% or so of the range just for the warm-up, would seem prudent, at least with current tech.
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 10

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Mon 11 Nov 2019, 16:34:25

rockdoc123 wrote:a lot of the people who are buying pickups here are going for the cheap ones (which are comparable to intermediate size cars price wise here) and they are not 4x4. 2 wheel is even worse as there is basically no traction on ice unless the back has a heavy load in it.

In my experience in central KY city driving, such pickup trucks are commonly seen after minor wrecks, backwards on some (or half off) some road, pointed the wrong way, clearly having lost control. This is in both rain, especially on hills, as well as icy conditions.

Folks I know with such pickups routinely fill the beds with snow or wood or some such load when we have a bad storm, because otherwise, they basically can't get around since in a bad storm, it takes several days to a week to get all but the busy roads plowed. (We don't have such storms often enough to merit sufficient equipment to do more than salting and minor plowing of major roads.)

To me, having a two wheel drive vehicle with a front engine and rear wheel drive makes it something I don't even want to drive in icy conditions. Then again, I'm a coward, and want reasonably safe driving conditions where feasible. (Get in one bad high speed wreck with a drunk running a red light, and it will cure you of the mirage that cars are "safe" in such an accident. The physics of momentum is impressive in such a crash -- safety equipment or not).
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 10

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Mon 11 Nov 2019, 16:41:03

Outcast_Searcher wrote:
Do you have a heated garage for overnight storage for your truck? At the temps. you're concerned about, that is a real "thing" for Tesla in frigid temps, given the vampire battery power loss.

Interesting point.
My vehicles all live outside at present. A garage is of course an option you can add that has more utility then just keeping the EV warm but just as my diesel tractor has plugin block heaters to allow it to start in sub zero temps I would expect a true work truck EV to have sufficient heaters employed while charging to have battery and cab ready to go even if parked out in a blizzard.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 10

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Mon 11 Nov 2019, 16:52:13

Outcast_Searcher wrote:
rockdoc123 wrote:a lot of the people who are buying pickups here are going for the cheap ones (which are comparable to intermediate size cars price wise here) and they are not 4x4. 2 wheel is even worse as there is basically no traction on ice unless the back has a heavy load in it.

In my experience in central KY city driving, such pickup trucks are commonly seen after minor wrecks, backwards on some (or half off) some road, pointed the wrong way, clearly having lost control. This is in both rain, especially on hills, as well as icy conditions.

Folks I know with such pickups routinely fill the beds with snow or wood or some such load when we have a bad storm, because otherwise, they basically can't get around since in a bad storm, it takes several days to a week to get all but the busy roads plowed. (We don't have such storms often enough to merit sufficient equipment to do more than salting and minor plowing of major roads.)

To me, having a two wheel drive vehicle with a front engine and rear wheel drive makes it something I don't even want to drive in icy conditions. Then again, I'm a coward, and want reasonably safe driving conditions where feasible. (Get in one bad high speed wreck with a drunk running a red light, and it will cure you of the mirage that cars are "safe" in such an accident. The physics of momentum is impressive in such a crash -- safety equipment or not).

One of my daughters now lives in Atlanta and is amused by how badly the city shuts down with just a couple of inches of snow. She has no problem with a front wheel drive sedan and aggressive all season radials but she learned to drive where two inches of snow on the town road was not worth plowing. Her biggest fear is getting hit by a southerner with no snow driving experience crossing over center line and hitting her because they were going too fast for the conditions. Over the years I have got along with a two wheel drive pickup with a limited slip rear end with good snow tires on it. But when stuck I have resorted to shoveling the back bed full of snow for the traction factor. Also I have on occasion poured a three inch slab across the back of the bed on plastic so I could bust it out in the spring. About four bags of speed crete makes a lot of difference. All of that hassle has gone away when I moved up to 4X4 and stopped commuting to work in the winter.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 10

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Mon 11 Nov 2019, 17:00:54

vtsnowedin wrote:
Outcast_Searcher wrote:
Do you have a heated garage for overnight storage for your truck? At the temps. you're concerned about, that is a real "thing" for Tesla in frigid temps, given the vampire battery power loss.

Interesting point.
My vehicles all live outside at present. A garage is of course an option you can add that has more utility then just keeping the EV warm but just as my diesel tractor has plugin block heaters to allow it to start in sub zero temps I would expect a true work truck EV to have sufficient heaters employed while charging to have battery and cab ready to go even if parked out in a blizzard.

I think if you're charging all night at level 2 or higher, you're probably OK re having nearly a full battery. However, that vampire loss will still be occurring, so it will make your charging more expensive (more power needed, given the losses). The problems I've read about with Tesla for this is with Level 1 charging in frigid temps, the net charge obtained is very tiny. For folks who didn't drive a lot, they were disappointed in needing to buy level 2 chargers to get by in winter.

Re having things ready to go, I presume all BEV's will have the ability to time that or start it early from inside the house like Tesla does(again, per my reading), so the battery/cabin/etc. has time to get to a decent operating/comfort temp before you leave. The difference with BEV's is that since range is limited -- such things have to be checked out and verified for the model you want, not just dealt with by burning more fuel, like with an ICE.
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 10

Unread postby Armageddon » Mon 11 Nov 2019, 18:06:54

Lol @ idiots who think we are going to convert the EV’s. There’s a reason there’s 1 billion gas engines and only 4 million EV’s. Wake up fools and try living in the real world. Probably the same idiots who thought ethanol, hydrogen and other unrealistic flavors of the day were going to save us. The US is in the ME and will fight for every last drop of oil. Get use to it.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 10

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Mon 11 Nov 2019, 18:19:13

Whatever the cabin heating and vampire losses are now I expect that steady improvement in that regard will occur in the years ahead. I would also not expect to live with a full EV without upgrading the home charging circuit to handle the load easily. Of course solar panels etc. are possibilities but I think the EV cars need to stand on their own using commonly available household current levels for charging. I currently have a 200 Amp service and am only using about 60 of it.
Of course if those improvements do not become reality I'll stick with another ICE pick up as at my age only one more will probably be needed.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 10

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Mon 11 Nov 2019, 18:25:50

Armageddon wrote:Lol @ idiots who think we are going to convert the EV’s. There’s a reason there’s 1 billion gas engines and only 4 million EV’s. Wake up fools and try living in the real world. Probably the same idiots who thought ethanol, hydrogen and other unrealistic flavors of the day were going to save us. The US is in the ME and will fight for every last drop of oil. Get use to it.

How many horse drawn buggies were there when the first thousand Model T's came off Fords assembly line?
If EVs become economical people will adopt them, if not ,they wont. I see no reason why they cannot become economical but do not claim much insight into the future. I do suspect the future supply of oil and it's price will eventually force the move away from ICE powered vehicles. What year that will happen I do not want to speculate about.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 10

Unread postby Armageddon » Mon 11 Nov 2019, 18:30:53

vtsnowedin wrote:
Armageddon wrote:Lol @ idiots who think we are going to convert the EV’s. There’s a reason there’s 1 billion gas engines and only 4 million EV’s. Wake up fools and try living in the real world. Probably the same idiots who thought ethanol, hydrogen and other unrealistic flavors of the day were going to save us. The US is in the ME and will fight for every last drop of oil. Get use to it.

How many horse drawn buggies were there when the first thousand Model T's came off Fords assembly line?
If EVs become economical people will adopt them, if not ,they wont. I see no reason why they cannot become economical but do not claim much insight into the future. I do suspect the future supply of oil and it's price will eventually force the move away from ICE powered vehicles. What year that will happen I do not want to speculate about.




Lazy, fatass people do not want to be bothered with charging their vehicle. Sorry, but that’s just reality.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 10

Unread postby Armageddon » Mon 11 Nov 2019, 21:49:22

I doubt there’s an endless supply of cobalt and lithium.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 10

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Mon 11 Nov 2019, 22:05:44

Grasping at straws are we tonight? While people are lazy it takes no more time to plug in a EV charger then it does to run your debit card through the gas pump and start pumping gas. The charge time is longer but you don't have to stand there and watch it. As to cobalt and lithium there is certainly a finite amount available but as elements they are not degraded by use so can be recycled. I'm sure the industry will deal with whatever supply problems become apparent in the future most probably by developing alternate electrolytes.
One thing I am sure of is that your pessimistic attitude about EV development will not make one car difference in the total numbers of EVs built and sold.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 10

Unread postby Armageddon » Mon 11 Nov 2019, 22:47:40

vtsnowedin wrote:Grasping at straws are we tonight? While people are lazy it takes no more time to plug in a EV charger then it does to run your debit card through the gas pump and start pumping gas. The charge time is longer but you don't have to stand there and watch it. As to cobalt and lithium there is certainly a finite amount available but as elements they are not degraded by use so can be recycled. I'm sure the industry will deal with whatever supply problems become apparent in the future most probably by developing alternate electrolytes.
One thing I am sure of is that your pessimistic attitude about EV development will not make one car difference in the total numbers of EVs built and sold.




You’re living in a dream world
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 10

Unread postby Armageddon » Mon 11 Nov 2019, 22:49:43

America is full of SUV’s and soccer moms. They will never switch to an EV in any mass scale. It’s just reality.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 10

Unread postby sparky » Tue 12 Nov 2019, 01:51:40

.
electrical vehicle are a miserable option
imagine a big week-end , the electric family car with the brats at the back

just got out of the city heavy traffic on the way to the beach
need to refill ,stop at the station on the motorway
89 cars in front of you , each taking half an hour
the brats are going AWOL ,
the wife blame you for your stupidity and hitch a ride with a gold toothed sleazebag driving an hybrid
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 10

Unread postby Armageddon » Tue 12 Nov 2019, 02:21:07

sparky wrote:.
electrical vehicle are a miserable option
imagine a big week-end , the electric family car with the brats at the back

just got out of the city heavy traffic on the way to the beach
need to refill ,stop at the station on the motorway
89 cars in front of you , each taking half an hour
the brats are going AWOL ,
the wife blame you for your stupidity and hitch a ride with a gold toothed sleazebag driving an hybrid



Yep, I can’t speak for the rest of the world, but I am for certain that most US citizens won’t switch to EV’s. Not as long as they have a choice.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 10

Unread postby EdwinSm » Tue 12 Nov 2019, 04:04:01

sparky wrote:.
electrical vehicle are a miserable option .... the electric family car with the brats at the back


And not even the sound of an ICE engine to drown out the noise they are making :razz:
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 10

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Tue 12 Nov 2019, 07:18:43

sparky wrote:.
electrical vehicle are a miserable option
imagine a big week-end , the electric family car with the brats at the back

just got out of the city heavy traffic on the way to the beach
need to refill ,stop at the station on the motorway
89 cars in front of you , each taking half an hour
the brats are going AWOL ,
the wife blame you for your stupidity and hitch a ride with a gold toothed sleazebag driving an hybrid

I don't expect large families to be first adopters of full EVs. The single person with the average 32 mile round trip to work will go first and might well have a second vehicle ICE SUV or pickup for weekends and long trips. And of course parents I know would not head off with the kids without enough charge in the battery to get there and back.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 10

Unread postby asg70 » Tue 12 Nov 2019, 09:32:38

Armageddon wrote:You’re living in a dream world


The writing is on the wall for the death of the ICE. It's not going to happen overnight but there is general agreement even from car buffs that ICE is on the way out. They may not like it, but they're not stupid enough to ignore the signs.

There has been ample proof provided here to backup the claim that all of the foundational pieces of this transition are being put into place. Even if you totally disregard Tesla, VW's moves of late should be indicative of the start of the transition beyond the compliance car stage and towards true mass production. And once VW moves, the others will be forced to respond. This momentum will breed innovation and lead to more economy of scale, bringing prices down, the whole virtuous cycle.

As for trucks, we have Rivian, Bollinger, Tesla, and probably more on the way. A quick google search revealed a recent report that GM is gonna move on this too.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa- ... SKBN1WX2HZ

Billions of dollars are being invested towards electrification. Despite that, we get casual dismissals from the likes of you.

So here's the deal. If you keep spamming this thread with zero-value posts like this I'm gonna start flagging.

HALL OF SHAME:
-Short welched on a bet and should be shunned.
-Frequent-flyers should not cry crocodile-tears over climate-change.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 10

Unread postby Armageddon » Tue 12 Nov 2019, 10:25:00

70% of Americans don’t have an extra $400 for an emergency and most are using their credit cards to make ends meet, but you expect them to go out and buy an EV? New study says 50% of Americans are making under $25,000.

EV’s will always represent a very small percentage of vehicles.
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