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THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 10

Discussions of conventional and alternative energy production technologies.

Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 10

Unread postby The_Toecutter » Sat 14 Dec 2019, 11:00:10

mousepad wrote:
That doesn't change anything, does it?
Whether YOU consume it as a result of your OWN work, or you consume it as a result of a government handout, or the government consumes it in the form of contracts, defense, research and what not.

It's consumed in the end.

To curb consumption, production must be curbed.


The idea is this:

-Taxes on fossil fuels will make the cost of everything that uses them, whether for manufacture or for use, go up in price. Both gasoline cars and electric cars become more expensive to produce, but the per mile operating cost of the EV becomes greatly favorable compared to the ICE car. So do consumer goods like electronics, appliances, furniture, ect. go up in price.

-The more someone spends, the more taxes they will pay. Someone buying a mansion and a V12 exotic sports car will pay greatly more than someone buying a 1,200 sq ft home and an entry level EV sedan due to the embodied energy used to make those things. Someone renting an apartment and taking mass transit to work pays virtually nothing in the context of home/transport and gets their rebate check that is the same amount as the rebate check of the person who bought the mansion and the V12 exotic sports car.

-Giving an equal rebate back to everyone will allow those who buy less items that have high energy inputs to have a sort of base penalty-free consumption allowance, where they will come out ahead if they consume below that allowance. This provides incentive to live in a manner that is less resource-hungry. If they want to consume more, they will have to work for it and will still have that option. If they consume far too much relative to the average, they will pay dearly for it as it will become a case of diminishing returns of living standard increase versus additional consumption.

-If one chooses to spend instead of save or invest the rebate money, they will have choices to make. Perhaps they could buy some solar panels or better insulate their home, instead of frivolities like snowmobiles or vacations to the other side of the world. After all, whatever they buy will be taxed at the point of manufacture of the fossil fuels in order to price the externalities into the product, and there would be financial incentive to become as independent from non-renewable resource consumption as possible for a given degree of living standard.

-It will further incentivize things being purchased used and being repaired to remain usable, as used items wouldn't have this consumption tax. Perhaps the market would shift to make repairing a used car no longer more expensive than it is worth, for instance.

This would not only curb production of goods, it might shift production to products that in the long run reduce consumption by their nature(solar panels, wind turbines, tools and appliances built to last lifetimes instead of ending up in landfills, electric vehicles, bicycles, phasing out the use of one-time use items like plastic shopping bags, ect). And by making the rebate an equal amount for everyone, but making the tax based on the embodied energy inherent in what is purchased and on how much is purchased at the corporate level by directly taxing the source(fossil fuels), it would be greatly less disruptive to the lives of the lower and middle classes. There would be no need for a scheme to track what every individual person buys and no great scheme to burden businesses with paperwork, because it will be tracked at the production point of the fossil fuels instead, and every manufacturer will have to price those taxes into their products by paying the taxes on the non renewable energy used to make them. In turn, it will incentivize industry to change how it makes its products in order to reduce its overhead costs. Perhaps some manufacturer will decide that it is more economical to use renewable energy in their manufacturing processes and become as independent from the utility grid as possible?

The rebates will help assure that the whole thing doesn't grind to a halt by keeping money in circulation.

Whether or not it will actually work, who knows? The main thing would be making sure there's no graft and making sure 100% of the money goes to the people and is kept out of pet programs and other government bloat, and governments have an absolutely terrible track record regarding this. Eliminating planned obsolescence and greatly reducing the profligate consumption of resources by the biggest consumers(the rich) should be the goal, while providing incentive toward everyone making reductions in their consumption. Those who consume the least would even be able to build savings and security as a result even if they were dirt poor otherwise.
The unnecessary felling of a tree, perhaps the old growth of centuries, seems to me a crime little short of murder. ~Thomas Jefferson
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 10

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Sat 14 Dec 2019, 13:22:33

The_Toecutter wrote:
mousepad wrote:
That doesn't change anything, does it?
Whether YOU consume it as a result of your OWN work, or you consume it as a result of a government handout, or the government consumes it in the form of contracts, defense, research and what not.

It's consumed in the end.

To curb consumption, production must be curbed.


The idea is this:

-Taxes on fossil fuels will make the cost of everything that uses them, whether for manufacture or for use, go up in price. Both gasoline cars and electric cars become more expensive to produce, but the per mile operating cost of the EV becomes greatly favorable compared to the ICE car. So do consumer goods like electronics, appliances, furniture, ect. go up in price.

-The more someone spends, the more taxes they will pay. Someone buying a mansion and a V12 exotic sports car will pay greatly more than someone buying a 1,200 sq ft home and an entry level EV sedan due to the embodied energy used to make those things. Someone renting an apartment and taking mass transit to work pays virtually nothing in the context of home/transport and gets their rebate check that is the same amount as the rebate check of the person who bought the mansion and the V12 exotic sports car.

-Giving an equal rebate back to everyone will allow those who buy less items that have high energy inputs to have a sort of base penalty-free consumption allowance, where they will come out ahead if they consume below that allowance. This provides incentive to live in a manner that is less resource-hungry. If they want to consume more, they will have to work for it and will still have that option. If they consume far too much relative to the average, they will pay dearly for it as it will become a case of diminishing returns of living standard increase versus additional consumption.

-If one chooses to spend instead of save or invest the rebate money, they will have choices to make. Perhaps they could buy some solar panels or better insulate their home, instead of frivolities like snowmobiles or vacations to the other side of the world. After all, whatever they buy will be taxed at the point of manufacture of the fossil fuels in order to price the externalities into the product, and there would be financial incentive to become as independent from non-renewable resource consumption as possible for a given degree of living standard.

-It will further incentivize things being purchased used and being repaired to remain usable, as used items wouldn't have this consumption tax. Perhaps the market would shift to make repairing a used car no longer more expensive than it is worth, for instance.

This would not only curb production of goods, it might shift production to products that in the long run reduce consumption by their nature(solar panels, wind turbines, tools and appliances built to last lifetimes instead of ending up in landfills, electric vehicles, bicycles, phasing out the use of one-time use items like plastic shopping bags, ect). And by making the rebate an equal amount for everyone, but making the tax based on the embodied energy inherent in what is purchased and on how much is purchased at the corporate level by directly taxing the source(fossil fuels), it would be greatly less disruptive to the lives of the lower and middle classes. There would be no need for a scheme to track what every individual person buys and no great scheme to burden businesses with paperwork, because it will be tracked at the production point of the fossil fuels instead, and every manufacturer will have to price those taxes into their products by paying the taxes on the non renewable energy used to make them. In turn, it will incentivize industry to change how it makes its products in order to reduce its overhead costs. Perhaps some manufacturer will decide that it is more economical to use renewable energy in their manufacturing processes and become as independent from the utility grid as possible?

The rebates will help assure that the whole thing doesn't grind to a halt by keeping money in circulation.

Whether or not it will actually work, who knows? The main thing would be making sure there's no graft and making sure 100% of the money goes to the people and is kept out of pet programs and other government bloat, and governments have an absolutely terrible track record regarding this. Eliminating planned obsolescence and greatly reducing the profligate consumption of resources by the biggest consumers(the rich) should be the goal, while providing incentive toward everyone making reductions in their consumption. Those who consume the least would even be able to build savings and security as a result even if they were dirt poor otherwise.

Good explanation, Toe.

Certainly far more productive than claiming nothing will work, no matter what, without acknowledging that the basic laws of economics, like supply and demand, actually DO predict economic behavior.
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 10

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Sun 15 Dec 2019, 20:28:19

The idea that self driving cars could be busy all the time is silly. There are rush hours where most people need to be at their destination (job) all at the same time with a lull between while people do their jobs, then another rush when they go home. The self driving cars will mostly sit idle during that lull as there will be way more cars then people needing rides in that time period. Same goes for the night time hours as people will not become night owls just to catch a cheap ride.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 10

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Sun 15 Dec 2019, 21:04:18

Visiting my new grand daughter and her parents this weekend and I learned that my son in law put down the $100 deposit on a cyber truck. Dang he beat me to it. :oops:
But that discussion moved my wife off "no way" to "Ok ,if you really want to, you can consider it a Christmas present I don't have to wrap." :)
It is only the $100 for now (refundable) but I will have to see how they have debugged it before delivery and I sign up for the payments.
I'm having fun thinking about the possibilities and I find it more amusing then buying lottery tickets.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 10

Unread postby The_Toecutter » Mon 16 Dec 2019, 16:37:38

The Cybertruck is exceptionally ugly, so exceptionally ugly it just might start a trend.

The premium model that does 0-60 mph in 2.9 seconds and gets a 500 mile range will likely have a battery pack somewhere around 200-250 kWh. And its range will probably drop to around 120-150 miles towing a load sized to the limit of the truck's published capabilities.

Whatever batteries Tesla has coming soon for its future products, I really want them for my projects. I suspect something is coming soon that has a specific capacity on the order of 300-350 Wh/kg.
The unnecessary felling of a tree, perhaps the old growth of centuries, seems to me a crime little short of murder. ~Thomas Jefferson
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 10

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Mon 16 Dec 2019, 21:12:06

The_Toecutter wrote:Whatever batteries Tesla has coming soon for its future products, I really want them for my projects. I suspect something is coming soon that has a specific capacity on the order of 300-350 Wh/kg.

Considering that in 2012 they were at 265 Wh/kg that would be quite an improvement but possible in these changing times. But until they actually defeat the physics that is holding them back on that upgrade I would not bet the rent on them reaching that goal.
Work with what you can get now and let improvements make things better when they actually arrive.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 10

Unread postby The_Toecutter » Mon 16 Dec 2019, 23:23:29

vtsnowedin wrote:Work with what you can get now and let improvements make things better when they actually arrive.


Hell, what the OEMs could get 20 years ago was good enough. Once batteries reached about 60 Wh/kg in the late 1990s, that opened the door to EV sedans and EV sports cars that could get 200+ miles per charge at highway speeds, assuming careful attention to aerodynamics and drivetrain component selection and with the car itself designed as a complete system from the ground up. An oil company obtaining the patent for that battery and sitting on it arguably held back commercially viable EVs until the various lithium chemistries became available in the mid 2000s.

I'm just trying to get the most energy dense battery as I can for my trike, as being a pedal-assist vehicle that can be operated independent of the electric drive, mass is critical, especially when pedaling up hills with the motor off. I'm looking at a vehicle that might possibly do 100 miles per kWh of battery @ 30 mph, so the more dense batteries greatly impact the vehicle's potential.
The unnecessary felling of a tree, perhaps the old growth of centuries, seems to me a crime little short of murder. ~Thomas Jefferson
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 10

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Tue 17 Dec 2019, 07:59:20

The_Toecutter wrote:
I'm just trying to get the most energy dense battery as I can for my trike, as being a pedal-assist vehicle that can be operated independent of the electric drive, mass is critical, especially when pedaling up hills with the motor off.

Why would you ever pedal a motorized trike uphill with the motor off? Aren't hills the whole reason for having the battery and motor?
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 10

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Tue 17 Dec 2019, 08:37:55

:-D I put my $100 down on a cyber truck. Now I have two years or more to save up a big down payment for it. I hope they get all the production problems that exist solved in ways I can tolerate. I'll be giving the actual product a hard look before taking delivery.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 10

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Tue 17 Dec 2019, 18:16:01

The_Toecutter wrote:The Cybertruck is exceptionally ugly, so exceptionally ugly it just might start a trend.

The premium model that does 0-60 mph in 2.9 seconds and gets a 500 mile range will likely have a battery pack somewhere around 200-250 kWh. And its range will probably drop to around 120-150 miles towing a load sized to the limit of the truck's published capabilities.

Whatever batteries Tesla has coming soon for its future products, I really want them for my projects. I suspect something is coming soon that has a specific capacity on the order of 300-350 Wh/kg.

And, the way Tesla works, it will probably cost roughly $100K to actually get that top configuration.

Why do people need a truck like that. If Electric trucks are viable, Rivian looks promising re practicality, space, and looks -- and also for big bucks.
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 10

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Tue 17 Dec 2019, 19:37:27

Outcast_Searcher wrote:
Why do people need a truck like that.

The last time I drove a vehicle that would turn heads was 1975 (68 Camaro , 327 V8) and I'd like to do that again. So no, I do not need a truck like that, but I want it and unless it turns out to be a complete loser I can probably drive it around to my hearts content then sell it for not much loss or leave it to my children and grand children.
I have never been an early adopter of the latest gadget and have saved thousands by being patient and letting the price come down but now the time clock is ticking and I don't have years to be patient left to me.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 10

Unread postby The_Toecutter » Wed 18 Dec 2019, 00:41:50

vtsnowedin wrote:Why would you ever pedal a motorized trike uphill with the motor off? Aren't hills the whole reason for having the battery and motor?


The short answer is that I want the vehicle to still be operable in the event that electricity is unavailable or if I'm thousands of miles from home and for whatever reason some component of the electric drive system fails. I do not want hills to limit its usability in the event that it must be pedaled with the drive system disabled.

The physics imposed upon the vehicle's operating dynamics as a result of a gradient can quickly mean that the same amount of power required to move the vehicle on flat ground at 30 mph might only get it up a 20% incline at 3 mph, and on such an incline, the wattage required for a given velocity becomes proportional to laden mass.

I also plan to put perhaps 100W of solar panels on it as well to complete it. I will be using it for touring anyway even if TEOTWAWKI scenario never materializes.

With the drive system disabled, in most cases, it will perform much faster than a normal bicycle for a given wattage input, the exception generally being steep uphill climbs, and will be able to run with city-speed traffic on most urban roads in most conditions. With the motor on, it will be highway capable, at least on those state highways where it is legal.

In states where ebikes are illegal to operate without license/registration, the motor can be disabled outright as well.

I posted some photos/videos/info of in-progress EV projects here:

https://peakoil.com/forums/the-ev-club-t74403-40.html#p1435479

vtsnowedin wrote:
I have never been an early adopter of the latest gadget and have saved thousands by being patient and letting the price come down but now the time clock is ticking and I don't have years to be patient left to me.


Indeed. I'm hoping I can find decent employment so I can get my doomstead in place before the doom starts. I'm not optimistic that will happen, but it wouldn't have been for lack of trying. I'll have at least a nice classic car that can still be driven and a bugout vehicle that will be usable no matter how rare/expensive fuel and electricity get. Solar panels are a must. I know how to build wind generators from scratch as well.

Outcast_Searcher wrote:And, the way Tesla works, it will probably cost roughly $100K to actually get that top configuration.

Why do people need a truck like that. If Electric trucks are viable, Rivian looks promising re practicality, space, and looks -- and also for big bucks.


The Tesla cybertruck looks like it would be difficult to lift objects in and out of the bed. However, its stainless steel flat panel-bodied design in theory should be extremely durable and corrosion-resistant, and inexpensive to produce due to no longer needing complicated stamps with compound curves to produce.

The Rivian is definitely more conventional.

Trucks in general these days cost big bucks. Although it seems Tesla is competing more with Lamborghini and not Ford, and may end up with a product superior to both at a decent price for what one gets.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 10

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Wed 18 Dec 2019, 05:48:06

The_Toecutter wrote:The Tesla cybertruck looks like it would be difficult to lift objects in and out of the bed.

Compared to full sized American pickups today? Hardly. And the suspension on the Cyber truck will let you squat the truck down to it's lowest setting for loading.
Trucks in general these days cost big bucks.

You ain't lying. :-D
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 10

Unread postby The_Toecutter » Wed 18 Dec 2019, 10:23:05

vtsnowedin wrote:Compared to full sized American pickups today? Hardly. And the suspension on the Cyber truck will let you squat the truck down to it's lowest setting for loading.


Try hoisting a heavy object over the side of the bed of the Cybertruck with those angled panels getting in the way.

Regardless, the amount of pre-orders tells a surprising story about the potential demand for this monstrosity.
The unnecessary felling of a tree, perhaps the old growth of centuries, seems to me a crime little short of murder. ~Thomas Jefferson
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 10

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Wed 18 Dec 2019, 11:17:50

The_Toecutter wrote:
vtsnowedin wrote:Compared to full sized American pickups today? Hardly. And the suspension on the Cyber truck will let you squat the truck down to it's lowest setting for loading.


Try hoisting a heavy object over the side of the bed of the Cybertruck with those angled panels getting in the way.

Regardless, the amount of pre-orders tells a surprising story about the potential demand for this monstrosity.

Why load over the side when the tailgate comes down? And again have you stood next to a full sized 4x4 pickup lately? The side rails of the bed are up to my armpits and I'm 6 ft. 3 in. tall. With my smaller Nissan Frontier you can layout plans on the hood and read them comfortably. With a full sized American truck today you need a step ladder. :)
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 10

Unread postby The_Toecutter » Wed 18 Dec 2019, 12:16:01

vtsnowedin wrote: Why load over the side when the tailgate comes down?


Some items are easier to load sideways than through the back.

And again have you stood next to a full sized 4x4 pickup lately?


I ride my three wheeler in traffic with them. The sidewalls at the top of the tires are above my face, the wheels at eye level. Yesterday I was riding in the snow at 20-25 mph and this asshole in a Dodge Ram was texting on a phone while tailgaiting me, only for him to get irritated, pass me at full throttle over the double yellow, and almost lose control barely managing to regain traction just before he would have ended up careening into oncoming traffic.

When someone gets aggressive or butthurt that they have to change lanes to go around my bike, it is almost always new SUV and truck drivers that scream and bitch and make threats, and most of the time, they are older, out of shape white people wearing expensive clothes. More than once I almost got into a fight after they decided to get out of their vehicle to escalate things.

It's absurd how large these trucks are. They're not practical work vehicles. They are boulevard queens. And because they are made increasingly of plastic and other cheap materials, sometimes their load capacity is not much better than underpowered foreign-built 4-cylinder trucks made of steel from 30+ years ago.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 10

Unread postby asg70 » Mon 23 Dec 2019, 11:34:59

The_Toecutter wrote:It's absurd how large these trucks are. They're not practical work vehicles. They are boulevard queens.


How many people make 100% practical buying decisions? No, their decisions are colored by long-standing tradition and what is considered fashionable or a high-value status symbol. You can call it absurd, but it's the reality, and it's not going away, so you may as well deal with it otherwise you're going to carry a permanent chip on your shoulder.

HALL OF SHAME:
-Short welched on a bet and should be shunned.
-Frequent-flyers should not cry crocodile-tears over climate-change.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 10

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Mon 23 Dec 2019, 21:50:52

I draw a distinction between trucks that are large and heavy for a needed purpose and those that are large but set up more for show then utility. A truck with frame, springs and tires sufficient to haul a full pallet of bricks or cement sacks or the weight equivalent with ease is a useful machine and can also haul full sheets of plywood and the like as well as longer lumber in the usual over cab rack. Another type has four doors and full back seat with an eight foot bed behind it. Called a crew cab it is an ugly truck but earns it keep every day on construction sites. On the other end I saw a Cadillac Escalade EXT"truck" today that has four doors but only a four or five foot bed behind the back seat. The only thing that would fit in the bed is some luggage and a set of golf clubs. Definitely a" Bosses vehicle" but one in my experience is driven by bosses that have a company that will soon be out of business.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 10

Unread postby Tanada » Tue 24 Dec 2019, 09:15:46

vtsnowedin wrote:I draw a distinction between trucks that are large and heavy for a needed purpose and those that are large but set up more for show then utility. A truck with frame, springs and tires sufficient to haul a full pallet of bricks or cement sacks or the weight equivalent with ease is a useful machine and can also haul full sheets of plywood and the like as well as longer lumber in the usual over cab rack. Another type has four doors and full back seat with an eight foot bed behind it. Called a crew cab it is an ugly truck but earns it keep every day on construction sites. On the other end I saw a Cadillac Escalade EXT"truck" today that has four doors but only a four or five foot bed behind the back seat. The only thing that would fit in the bed is some luggage and a set of golf clubs. Definitely a" Bosses vehicle" but one in my experience is driven by bosses that have a company that will soon be out of business.


I grew up in and still live on the edge of farm country and the first time I saw a shiny new Lincoln Mark Lt "pickup truck" I burst into peals of laughter. They took a Ford F-150, installed leather seats with heaters, luxury surround sound and all the bells and whistles and painted it Lincoln eggshell white. I took a good look at the thing in a parking lot and the most dangerous thing its surface had ever encountered was a dirty brush in a car wash.

Are you kidding me?

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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 10

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Tue 24 Dec 2019, 17:36:52

Tanada wrote:
I took a good look at the thing in a parking lot and the most dangerous thing its surface had ever encountered was a dirty brush in a car wash.

Exactly but trucks like that make excellent finds when they are tenish years old. They may have well under 100K on them and have yet to do a lick of work. Change the fluids and good for your next 100K for cheap and the radio AC and leather seats maybe still pristine.
The best bet is an owner that bought it when he was 55 or so and is now retired and 65.
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