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THE EEStor Thread (merged)

Discussions of conventional and alternative energy production technologies.

Hypercapacitors

Unread postby tmazanec1 » Sat 25 Feb 2006, 14:39:54

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Re: Hypercapacitors

Unread postby Aimrehtopyh » Sat 04 Mar 2006, 21:10:44

http://www.amsuper.com/products/transmi ... /index.cfm

These guys seem to have a product similar to what you're talking about, sounds to me like they have a superconducting capacitor of sorts.

I'm more excited about their superconducting power cables though.
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Re: Hypercapacitors

Unread postby Frank » Sun 05 Mar 2006, 08:29:06

Various tests have shown that ultracaps can increase range of EV's by limiting max battery current draw (via Peukert factor). I believe they will play a role in future transportation.

These guys http://www.isecorp.com/ are building some ucap buses using Maxwell capacitors for Long Beach, CA. I believe their ucap application does away with batteries entirely.
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Electrical Energy Storage Unit (Hyper Capacitor)

Unread postby Plasma » Mon 05 Jun 2006, 12:11:28

A startup company call EEStor our of Texas claims to have invented a type of "Hyper Capacitor".

Here are some of the characteristics...

About 1 cubic foot and 320 pounds, millions of recharge cycles, 52KW Hours storage, 4-6 minute recharge time, $2K-3K price, non-toxic materials, very low leakage, etc.

...Here is the patent...
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/20040071944.pdf

Here is a link to an article...
http://dymaxionworld.blogspot.com/2006/ ... ullet.html

Supposedly, independent verification is due soon. Incredible achievement with extremely positive implications for electric vehicles, etc, IF it works and can be mass-produced.
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Re: Electrical Energy Storage Unit (Hyper Capacitor)

Unread postby kmann » Mon 05 Jun 2006, 12:58:12

Not bad, but 52KW hours is the energy in roughly 2 gallons of gasoline (if my back of the envelope calculations are correct). This might be most useful in a hybrid with its high power density, that is- able to transfer energy in and out quickly. You could run a lot lower hp engine and use the capacitor for power during acceleration.
Last edited by kmann on Mon 05 Jun 2006, 12:59:00, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Electrical Energy Storage Unit (Hyper Capacitor)

Unread postby NeoPeasant » Mon 05 Jun 2006, 12:58:34

Ooh, startup company! Quick, what's the symbol? where do I buy?

As always, I will get excited about this product when I can go to Home Depot and buy one.

If I didn't have more pressing things to occupy my time, I think it would be interesting to track all these breathless announcements of savior technologies and show how many come to fruition over time and make investors rich. It would make an interesting niche website, and serve to remind people of how many of these miracles on the horizon have faded into obscurity.
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Re: Electrical Energy Storage Unit (Hyper Capacitor)

Unread postby FoxV » Mon 05 Jun 2006, 15:13:40

kmann wrote:Not bad, but 52KW hours is the energy in roughly 2 gallons of gasoline (if my back of the envelope calculations are correct).

comparing it to gasoline is not a good method because electric engines are about 3-4X more efficient than ICE engines.

A good rule of thumb is 5Km/Kwh (3mi/Kwh).

so a 52Kwh would suite most people very nicely (hell, 10kwh would suite 99% of my daily needs).

I think the important thing here is "Startup company" and " independent verification is due soon"

I'll dance in the streets if its true, but until then I'll keep mixing the cool-aid :razz:
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Re: Electrical Energy Storage Unit (Hyper Capacitor)

Unread postby Exponent » Mon 05 Jun 2006, 15:30:01

Grabbing a few quick numbers off the internet (roughly 6 lbs per gallon of gasoline), it looks like this is somewhere around 6 times heavier than gasoline, however, plus it still weighs the same even when your "tank is low". Don't know how negatively that would affect things, but it certain isn't a point in its favor.

I don't know too much about various methods of energy storage, but if this stuff does work as claimed, would that make it better than more traditional batteries for solar/wind-produced power storage?
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Re: Electrical Energy Storage Unit (Hyper Capacitor)

Unread postby Kingcoal » Mon 05 Jun 2006, 16:36:53

CAPACITOR LOSSES

Power loss in a capacitor may be attributed to dielectric hysteresis and dielectric leakage. Dielectric hysteresis may be defined as an effect in a dielectric material similar to the hysteresis found in a magnetic material. It is the result of changes in orientation of electron orbits in the dielectric because of the rapid reversals of the polarity of the line voltage. The amount of power loss due to dielectric hysteresis depends upon the type of dielectric used. A vacuum dielectric has the smallest power loss.

Dielectric leakage occurs in a capacitor as the result of LEAKAGE CURRENT through the dielectric. Normally it is assumed that the dielectric will effectively prevent the flow of current through the capacitor. Although the resistance of the dielectric is extremely high, a minute amount of current does flow. Ordinarily this current is so small that for all practical purposes it is ignored. However, if the leakage through the dielectric is abnormally high, there will be a rapid loss of charge and an overheating of the capacitor.

The power loss of a capacitor is determined by loss in the dielectric. If the loss is negligible and the capacitor returns the total charge to the circuit, it is considered to be a perfect capacitor with a power loss of zero.


I don't doubt that these guys can make a cap that can store lots of coulombs, however, I do doubt that they can and have the low losses required to be practical. High capacitance and low leakage tend to be inversely proportional.

In other words, the cap sits there and starts slowly discharging once the charging source is disconnected. This wouldn't be too practical for the guy who drives to the airport and returns a week later...
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Re: Electrical Energy Storage Unit (Hyper Capacitor)

Unread postby aflurry » Mon 05 Jun 2006, 17:37:19

Kingcoal wrote:In other words, the cap sits there and starts slowly discharging once the charging source is disconnected. This wouldn't be too practical for the guy who drives to the airport and returns a week later...


vehicle to grid, maybe?
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Re: Electrical Energy Storage Unit (Hyper Capacitor)

Unread postby mattb » Mon 05 Jun 2006, 17:50:00

NeoPeasant wrote:Ooh, startup company! Quick, what's the symbol? where do I buy?

As always, I will get excited about this product when I can go to Home Depot and buy one.

If I didn't have more pressing things to occupy my time, I think it would be interesting to track all these breathless announcements of savior technologies and show how many come to fruition over time and make investors rich. It would make an interesting niche website, and serve to remind people of how many of these miracles on the horizon have faded into obscurity.



This is going to be a little differnt methinks.

Did you see who it is that provided the venture capital?

Kleiner Perkins Caufield & Byers, that's who! not the type of operation that invests in pie-in-the-sky technologies. If those guys are involved, then there's something to this.
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Re: Electrical Energy Storage Unit (Hyper Capacitor)

Unread postby Kingcoal » Mon 05 Jun 2006, 19:25:27

I don't mean to dis it too much - if they are successful, we have our electric car, the one we've been waiting for. It could be charged very quickly, in a mater of a minute or two, depending on its internal current handling and would hold it's charge long enough get where you're going.

The technology is very analogous to the fly wheel car idea except its much safer. Electricity is the highest form of energy, easy to control, turn off and on and very efficient (electric motors can exceed 95%.) However, I'd like to witness a really good, direct short across the terminals of a fully charged unit; it should make some fantastic fireworks! It might even be able to make a decent bomb.

There have been huge strides in capacitor technology and I see no reason why this can't work. However, as usual, the proof is in the pudding.
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Re: Electrical Energy Storage Unit (Hyper Capacitor)

Unread postby NeoPeasant » Mon 05 Jun 2006, 20:17:39

mattb wrote:
NeoPeasant wrote:Ooh, startup company! Quick, what's the symbol? where do I buy?

As always, I will get excited about this product when I can go to Home Depot and buy one.

If I didn't have more pressing things to occupy my time, I think it would be interesting to track all these breathless announcements of savior technologies and show how many come to fruition over time and make investors rich. It would make an interesting niche website, and serve to remind people of how many of these miracles on the horizon have faded into obscurity.



This is going to be a little differnt methinks.

Did you see who it is that provided the venture capital?

Kleiner Perkins Caufield & Byers, that's who! not the type of operation that invests in pie-in-the-sky technologies. If those guys are involved, then there's something to this.


Supposing it is different and they have vastly improved electrical energy storage, I wouldn't waste them on the futile effort to maintain automobility. I would attach it to a home solar array and windmill system. I could go a week easy on that many kilowatt-hours. Hey, maybe when they're for sale at Home Depot, they will also be selling home solar array and windmill kits.
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Re: Electrical Energy Storage Unit (Hyper Capacitor)

Unread postby SolarDave » Mon 05 Jun 2006, 22:11:13

I wrote a little calculator for capacitors. Take a look at the claimed performance of this device:

Voltage?
3500
Capacity? 31
Capacity Unit: u = microfarads f = farads f
Joules: 189875000.0
watts for 5 seconds: 37975000.00000000000000000000
watts for 10 seconds: 18987500.00000000000000000000
watts for 30 seconds: 6329166.66666666666666666666
watts for 60 seconds: 3164583.33333333333333333333
watts for 10 minutes: 316458.33333333333333333333
watts for 60 minutes: 52743.05555555555555555555
watts for 24 hours: 2197.62731481481481481481
Amp Hours at 3500v: 15.06944444444444444444

Zowie!

Simply charge at 2.5KW for 24 hours....

How much torque would an electric vehicle motor produce if it was drawing 38 Megawatts?

Missing from the information - how fast the power can be moved in and out of the device. The 3500 volt potential also sounds - what's the word? - dangerous.

I'd like to buy just 1/9th of it for my electric car, which can only store 3.5 kWH of useful energy in a brand new battery pack. Where do I sign?
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Re: Electrical Energy Storage Unit (Hyper Capacitor)

Unread postby Kingcoal » Tue 06 Jun 2006, 08:00:20

Yes, 3500V is very high for any capacitor, let alone one this huge. Also, we need to know the instantaneous current handling capacity of this thing, which will tell us how fast it can be charged and discharged. I'm very skeptical that you could fit so much storage and such a high breakdown voltage into a package this small.
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Re: Electrical Energy Storage Unit (Hyper Capacitor)

Unread postby NeoPeasant » Tue 06 Jun 2006, 09:22:32

SolarDave wrote:I wrote a little calculator for capacitors. Take a look at the claimed performance of this device:

Voltage?
3500
Capacity? 31
Capacity Unit: u = microfarads f = farads f
Joules: 189875000.0
watts for 5 seconds: 37975000.00000000000000000000
watts for 10 seconds: 18987500.00000000000000000000
watts for 30 seconds: 6329166.66666666666666666666
watts for 60 seconds: 3164583.33333333333333333333
watts for 10 minutes: 316458.33333333333333333333
watts for 60 minutes: 52743.05555555555555555555
watts for 24 hours: 2197.62731481481481481481


More importantly, you can produce 1.21 gigawatts for 157 milliseconds. You can build a time machine! Read lots of old newspapers then travel back in time, buy low and sell high.
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Re: Electrical Energy Storage Unit (Hyper Capacitor)

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Tue 06 Jun 2006, 11:19:21

SolarDave wrote:Missing from the information - how fast the power can be moved in and out of the device. The 3500 volt potential also sounds - what's the word? - dangerous.


You have 2500V caps in your microwave and you are still alive.
By the way, do not touch those when charged as you will be stone dead.
3500V would NOT be much more dangerous and you do NOT need to be concerned about capacitance itself.
1 microfarad @2500V from microwave will make you as dead as few farads (F=A*s/V)@3500V from some supercapacitor.
There may be a difference for your family: They would have difficulty to recognise your body in second case.
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Re: Electrical Energy Storage Unit (Hyper Capacitor)

Unread postby Frank » Tue 06 Jun 2006, 18:45:47

Big capacitors are starting to be used in real-world: Maxwell is supplying some to power hybrid buses somewhere in California. Great application for a heavy hybrid with lots of energy to be converted/stored quickly.
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Re: Electrical Energy Storage Unit (Hyper Capacitor)

Unread postby What2DO » Wed 07 Jun 2006, 21:35:17

I dont understand where are all the PO members that shoot down topics like this one ???? Is there something it this new Capacitor that will lead to helping use curve our dependants on oil? and in a rather fast time at a not cheap cheap but very competitive cost?
Cant this new breakthrough (if for real) work to make solar farms like the one Southern Califorina Edison is building in the Victorville area of California be a viable means of capturing the suns energy then storing it in these new Hyper Capacitors to power all over americas electrical needs? Its said that if this solar farm was expanded to a 100 square mile area it would create enough energy to power america atleast with electricity.
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Re: Electrical Energy Storage Unit (Hyper Capacitor)

Unread postby What2DO » Sun 18 Jun 2006, 23:48:37

WOW still nothing from all the doomers huh
Is the future solar/capacitors as our new cheap energy.
Whats wrong why arent all the doomers jumping on this topic could there be something to it ???
Come on I want to hear why this isnt going to work!!!!
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