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THE Democrat Thread Pt. 4

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THE Democrat Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Mon 14 Oct 2019, 22:09:40

Pops wrote:
Outcast_Searcher wrote:
Pops wrote:That's not income, it's wealth: accumulated profit.

Ah, the assumptions liberals make.

How do you suppose many people GET to be relatively wealthy?

Pray tell!
LOL, Pretty funny to start a post about liberal assumptions by making assumptions about liberals.

You made the claim that wealth is not income, it's "accumulated profit".

Not that part of the wealth is, which implies it all is. That's the assumption I was taking issue with. That's why I laid out my scenario, as a counter-example.

I didn't realize one had to be in the 1% for it to count.
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: THE Democrat Thread Pt. 3

Unread postby careinke » Tue 15 Oct 2019, 02:38:59

All taxes are theft, backed by threatened armed violence, from a corrupt mob, looking to further their own self interest.

I have an Idea. Why don't the rich who think they should pay more taxes just sit down, write a check, and give it to the government? Then again, perhaps they don't feel government can spend their money as wisely as they can?
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Re: THE Democrat Thread Pt. 3

Unread postby Pops » Tue 15 Oct 2019, 10:57:24

Outcast_Searcher wrote:So are you saying it's fine to confiscate the wealth of the 1%, but not the 10%? As a strong believer in property rights, and knowing that the wealthy pay a tremedous proportion of the US income taxes and all the death taxes on top of that, where I draw the line is when politicians and their minions want to confiscate wealth on top those taxes, and claim that the rich never pay "enough".

I'm not so much into the redistribution.
Liz has a plan for universal babysitting, it's part of how she'd spend the wealth tax. I understand it is hard for small timers to pay $15/hr for childcare on a $10/hr wage because I've been there. I was able to pull myself up while my wife stayed home, but I'm lucky, lots aren't. I'd much rather raise the minimum wage to something livable so that folks who aren't as lucky as me can have a parent stay at home if they want. I'd rather pay more for a burger so that can happen than give Burger King another backdoor subsidy.

As far as tax rate, it's been trickling down for decades

Image

Yeah, in society we pay tax, sucks but there it is. The option is move to Mogadishu and become a warlord.

Some of the rancor in the US today is a result of white males (and their women folk) losing their privileged status (or thinking they have). But a large part is the flatlining of the American Dream. And the strangest thing is the reaction of some working folks has been arguing on the side of the 400, then turning around and drinking/doping/shooting themselves to death in despair. It is just beyond me.

I won't repost the chart showing the widening wealth gap, but not surprisingly it correlates completely with the above chart. Now we can blame the losers who don't have the ability or drive to become an engineer if it makes us feel superior. We can blame the folks who throw up their hands and eat some pills or their pistol. I think somewhere down this road they'll wake up and stop hurting themselves and the wealth gap will be closed one way or another.
.
The legitimate object of government, is to do for a community of people, whatever they need to have done, but can not do, at all, or can not, so well do, for themselves -- in their separate, and individual capacities.
-- Abraham Lincoln, Fragment on Government (July 1, 1854)
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Re: THE Democrat Thread Pt. 3

Unread postby Cog » Tue 15 Oct 2019, 13:57:05

All you will accomplish by raising minimum wage is to increase automation. A minimum wage job was never designed to be a livable wage. The thought it should is pure socialism. You are worth what value you bring to your employer and not a dime more. Don't like the wage? Then quit.
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Re: THE Democrat Thread Pt. 3

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Tue 15 Oct 2019, 14:23:00

Cog wrote:All you will accomplish by raising minimum wage is to increase automation. A minimum wage job was never designed to be a livable wage. The thought it should is pure socialism. You are worth what value you bring to your employer and not a dime more. Don't like the wage? Then quit.

Certainly, no rational person could argue that significantly raising the minimum wage will certainly strongly INCENT many employers to buy more job (especially low wage job) replacing automation ASAP. And thus be incenting tech companies to develop more of them and faster.

Oh, and you can politely negotiate on your wage. Both my father and I asked our bosses at IBM why we hadn't seen raises in years, and what we were doing wrong at (at least) one point. Both of got an "oops!", an apology for overlooking the situation (busy bosses make mistakes too), and a prompt large raise.

But yeah, this idea that companies should pay way above market wages because of the far left's idea of "fairness" is a good indication of why the developed economies aren't doing a lot better.

"Fairness" should be about access to a good education, protection from physical harm from bad guys and dangerous things, not about artificially screwing up wages, and pretending like there are no economic tools companies can use to adapt to that.

But by all means, let's send far more jobs overseas and make more jobs obsolete via automation, and then blame the GOP. :roll:

As a consumer, this is good for me. If I were still a worker, it would incent me to vote against the dems.
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: THE Democrat Thread Pt. 3

Unread postby Pops » Tue 15 Oct 2019, 14:39:03

boss said "Oops, plumb slipped my mind, I been soooo busy!"
LOL that's good
The legitimate object of government, is to do for a community of people, whatever they need to have done, but can not do, at all, or can not, so well do, for themselves -- in their separate, and individual capacities.
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Re: THE Democrat Thread Pt. 3

Unread postby Cog » Tue 15 Oct 2019, 14:46:05

A corporation is not a charity no matter how Dems and Pops wish otherwise.
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Re: THE Democrat Thread Pt. 3

Unread postby yellowcanoe » Tue 15 Oct 2019, 15:03:00

Outcast_Searcher wrote:Certainly, no rational person could argue that significantly raising the minimum wage will certainly strongly INCENT many employers to buy more job (especially low wage job) replacing automation ASAP. And thus be incenting tech companies to develop more of them and faster.


Well I guess that makes some of those on the left irrational because they will insist that increasing the minimum wage will not result in a loss of jobs. In the short term they may be right because most business owners are going to try to keep their businesses running despite the higher wage costs. In the long run economic theory is going to win out and jobs will be lost due to automation or businesses folding because they are no longer profitable.

The left also want to believe that bringing in large numbers of semi-skilled workers won't put downward pressure on wages. It is the large pool of labour that the left is complicit in creating via an open door immigration policy that contributes to the low wage situation they in turn want to eliminate by raising the minimum wage.
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Re: THE Democrat Thread Pt. 3

Unread postby Newfie » Tue 15 Oct 2019, 16:11:02

Exactly right Yellow. Without the large immigrant influx then the scarcity of labor would increase the wages. Market forces would drive labor prices upwards. So in this respect the Democrats are assisting the elites in keeping the minions down. And I guess because the illegals, using fake documents, pay into SS et al, but will never get money out of SS, so all us in the middle benefit.

Automation is IMHO a mixed blessing. ALL economist insist on a growing economy. If you stop immigration then you also limit the number of consumers, slowing the economic growth. However AI replaces workers so it should in theory allow for economic growth in a stable or declining population. The problem is that if a worker is replaced by a robot then the taxes go away. The solution is then to tax the robot, or better to tax the production. It would provide the government with a more stable tax base and also make immigration less desirable.

Then if we have less immigration we would be able to start working on stabilizing our economy (zero growth) or maybe even working towards sustainability (declining population to about 150 million.)
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Re: THE Democrat Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby jedrider » Tue 15 Oct 2019, 22:49:09

Saw the debate tonight. They seem to all agree that Trump must go and largely agreed on other issues, too, and didn't bash each other. That also made it hard to pick a winner, but IMO, they all had some merit, so it will come down to some constellation of attributes that are most appealing (unless the DNC mucks it up again). I'm hoping this unity prevails because that was the downfall of the Democrats in the last election.

Republicans, on the other hand, all agreed that they wanted to win in 2016 and they didn't care who they selected as long as they could win. Let's see how this plays out if they determine Trump cannot win, but they may not have a plan B either.

Only Tulsi seems to have a different perspective from the other Democrats, which made her the outsider. She particularly had a different opinion of our military presence around the world. Biden also said he knew how to fix government. That sounds familiar, unfortunately, because that's what Trump had said.

Anyway, good debate, actually, very good debate, that clearly highlighted what policies Democrats are contemplating. So, did they really agree, or just pretended to agree? That I don't know.
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Re: THE Democrat Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby Cog » Wed 16 Oct 2019, 00:40:24

Yes they all agreed with free stuff for everyone, tax the rich, confiscate guns, starting a new war in Syria, open borders for illegals, and Orange Man bad. A more ouright display of praising authoritarian socialism I have ever seen outside Cuba and Venezuela.
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Re: THE Democrat Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby Plantagenet » Thu 17 Oct 2019, 07:46:02

jedrider wrote:Saw the debate tonight. They seem to all agree that Trump must go....


They also agreed the D impeachment inquiry is nonpartisan. Apparently they are all liars or idiots or both.

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"The people in power should listen.....its them I'm criticizing" Greta Thunberg, 12/4/19
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Re: THE Democrat Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby lpetrich » Sun 27 Oct 2019, 22:13:47

Rep. Elijah Cummings dies at 68 - The Washington Post
Elijah E. Cummings, a Democratic congressman from Maryland who gained national attention for his principled stands on politically charged issues in the House, his calming effect on anti-police riots in Baltimore, and his forceful opposition to the presidency of Donald Trump, died Oct. 17 at a hospice center in Baltimore. He was 68.

The cause was “complications concerning long-standing health challenges,” his office said in a statement. Mr. Cummings was chairman of the House Oversight and Reform Committee and a leading figure in the Trump impeachment inquiry and had been out of his office for weeks while recovering from an unspecified medical procedure.

Born in 1951, he helped integrate a local swimming pool at age 11, despite bottles and rocks thrown at him. Inspired by the TV show "Perry Mason", he became a lawyer. In 1983, he went into politics in Maryland's House of Delegates, and in 1996, he got into the US House of Representatives. Early this year, he became head of the House Oversight and Reform Committee.

He got a lot of nice tributes from his fellow politicians, including this one:

Donald J. Trump on Twitter: "My warmest condolences to the family and many friends of Congressman Elijah Cummings. I got to see first hand the strength, passion and wisdom of this highly respected political leader. His work and voice on so many fronts will be very hard, if not impossible, to replace!" / Twitter

That struck a lot of people as being so out of character for him that it had to have been some staffer who wrote that.
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Re: THE Democrat Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby lpetrich » Sun 27 Oct 2019, 22:24:49

Even as he was hospitalized, he was busy until the end.

Ayanna Pressley on Twitter: "As I was paying my respects to our forever Chairman, his staff told me that in his final hours he signed subpoenas to USCIS and ICE, pursuing justice for immigrants in my district & across the country with chronic medical conditions. A man of his word every moment of his life. https://t.co/igzUPl1yPF" / Twitter

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez has some of my favorite tributes to him. Like
The Last Word on Twitter: "WATCH: @AOC remembers her time working aside Rep. Elijah Cummings and what it was like to have him welcome her onto the House Oversight Committee. https://t.co/wYiCwUgUzq" / Twitter
"The complete honor of a lifetime" - he was interested in whether AOC was willing to champion vulnerable people, to bring truth to light, and to speak truth to power. He was also the opposite of Congress's seniority-dominated culture, in wanting all the freshmen in his committee. AOC recalls him being an excellent teacher for these new members.

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez on Instagram: “Chairman Elijah Cummings was a hero. Just watch any video of him in any hearing and you will understand the power, dignity, and moral…”
"Despite having so much stature and power, he had absolutely zero ego. None. He constantly looked to uplift the communities and people whose stories were overlooked and underserved. He was tough and compassionate, and always reminded people that they were never too late to do good."

Some time earlier:
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez on Twitter: "He looked right at me & said: “I am going to ask you plainly: Are you here to do the work?” People’s lives are at stake in urgent ways on Oversight. He demanded excellence, & was watching my every word. I said “Yes” &made my best case incl why & how I wanted to be on the cmte." / Twitter
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Re: THE Democrat Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby lpetrich » Sun 27 Oct 2019, 22:38:08

Donald J. Trump on Twitter: "So some day, if a Democrat becomes President and the Republicans win the House, even by a tiny margin, they can impeach the President, without due process or fairness or any legal rights. All Republicans must remember what they are witnessing here - a lynching. But we will WIN!" / Twitter

Which strikes me as belligerent and undignified self-pity. That's what makes his remark about Elijah Cummings seem so out of character. Trump likens impeachment probe to lynching, Democrats and some Republicans express disgust - The Washington Post

Then this happened.

Laura Cooper depostion: Following Republicans storming room, Defense official testifies in impeachment inquiry - CNNPolitics

Republicans Stormed Into The Impeachment Investigation's Secure Room On Capitol Hill
Notably, according to a list provided by Gaetz's office of the Republicans who RSVP'd to join the protest, 12 of them are members of the Oversight or Foreign Affairs committees — including Rep. Jim Jordan, the ranking member on the Oversight Committee — meaning they have been allowed to sit in on all depositions held in the SCIF in recent weeks. A spokesperson for Rep. Ken Buck, who is on the list and serves on the Foreign Affairs Committee, however, later clarified that he did not attend, though he tweeted in support.

Rep. Fred Keller, an Oversight member who joined the protest, "was acting in solidarity with those members of Congress who are not allowed in the hearings, to review testimony, or read transcripts of this secret inquiry. ... [He] believes the way this inquiry is being conducted is unfair and it needs to stop," according to a spokesperson.

...
The protest Wednesday is the latest in a line of complaints from GOP lawmakers, who have argued that they are being cut out of the impeachment inquiry and that Democrats are holding hearings in secret. That’s not the case.

Some of these "protesters" even brought in their cellphones, a no-no there.

Fox News reported that some source claims that some of these "gentlemen" wanted to be arrested. Which provoked this response:
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez on Twitter: "There have been many aspects of the GOP’s little flash mob that have relied on mountains of entitlement and privilege, but them *asking* the police to be arrested is just...

Well, let’s just say my community would find it hard to understand why *anyone* would ask to be arrested." / Twitter
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Re: THE Democrat Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby Plantagenet » Sun 27 Oct 2019, 23:02:11

lpetrich wrote:Trump likens impeachment probe to lynching, Democrats ... express disgust - The Washington Post


I wonder why Ds weren't disgusted when Bill Clinton likened his impeachment to a lynching. I guess its OK when a D says it.

lpetrich wrote: ...Democrats are holding hearings in secret. That’s not the case.


Of course the hearings are secret. No one who is not on the committee is allowed in the hearings. No press is allowed in the room. There is no television coverage from these hearings, i.e. they are being done in secret.

Do you get it now?

Cheers!
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Re: THE Democrat Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby lpetrich » Sun 27 Oct 2019, 23:35:21

Most recently, Maxine Waters, head of the House Banking Committee, had some hearings about Facebook's planned cryptocurrency Libra.

Though some of the politicians stayed on topic, like a Republican who asked why it is in Switzerland and not in the US, many others went off on a variety of tangents.

Rep. Katie Porter described how Facebook employs a lot of contractors who have to look at a lot of video of murders and stabbings and suicides and the like, all without psychological assistance and for low pay. She asked Facebook CEO Mark Zuckerberg whether he would be willing to try doing what they were doing. MZ didn't see the point of doing so, and I'm guessing that KP was asking him if he'd be willing to experience what some of his employees, er, contractors have to go through.

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez questioned MZ about how much he knew about FB's involvement with Cambridge Analytica, and he claimed that he didn't know much about that. She also asked him about political ads that make false claims about when Election Day is, a technique that has been used for voter suppression. He claimed that FB would reject those. She also asked him more generally about outright lying in political ads, and he claimed that his company would not reject them. Even when she gave the example of claiming that some Republican supports her Green New Deal. Maxine Waters also slammed him about political ads with outright lies.

AOC later noted that MZ did not seem to know that Republicans oppose her GND, and that he did not even ask about it. She is also suspicious about FB and CA and the far right - was MZ really that ignorant of those connections? She notes that the committee will be giving FB some further questions, and that a much-requested question was that if FB was not willing to do the necessary fact checking, then why not ban political ads outright?
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Re: THE Democrat Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby Plantagenet » Sun 27 Oct 2019, 23:40:00

lpetrich wrote:... if FB was not willing to do the necessary fact checking, then why not ban political ads outright?


Jeez what a naive question.

Facebook makes a lot of money selling political ads. If they banned all of them, or even just banned those deemed untrue, then Facebook would make less money----and the goal of Facebook is to make money.

TV and newspapers operate on the same principle. They make money every time an ad runs....and often more for political ads because ad rates go up as election day approaches and the demand for ad time increase.

Get it now?

Cheers!
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Re: THE Democrat Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby lpetrich » Mon 28 Oct 2019, 00:27:11

Plantagenet wrote:
lpetrich wrote:... if FB was not willing to do the necessary fact checking, then why not ban political ads outright?


Jeez what a naive question.

Facebook makes a lot of money selling political ads. If they banned all of them, or even just banned those deemed untrue, then Facebook would make less money----and the goal of Facebook is to make money.

So anything goes when it comes to making money? No matter how unscrupulous or crooked or criminal it is? Is defamation completely legitimate?

So if some newspaper made big money off of some false story that you committed some horrible crimes, you wouldn't object? Even if the newspaper's publishers knew that it was false?
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Re: THE Democrat Thread Pt. 4

Unread postby lpetrich » Mon 28 Oct 2019, 00:35:59

Defamation = general term for libel and slander. Libel = written, slander = spoken, and some electronic media blur the line between them.

Think of the possibilities. Imagine someone taking out ads in Facebook defaming President Trump with demonstrably false assertions. Like saying that he has agreed with Vladimir Putin to let Russia rig the 2020 elections so that he can have a second term and that the Republicans can win big in the House and the Senate. Or that he has agreed to pull American troops out of Europe and let Russia dominate it. Or pull American troops out of South Korea and let North Korea annex it.
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